Chronic Puller! Help!

[m-j]

But that assumes that there is a positive solution that can be applied successfully and as efficiently as a correction in all situations and I can't agree that's always the case.

Off the top of my head LLw is one area were I can think that this is applicable as dogs need to go for walks and as I have mentioned I do give a tool that will issue a correction but when it is a behaviour that can be managed and/or avoided until the training is complete I will advise this...maybe you can think of another?

You need to take into account the handler's ability too; the deadline the trainer may be working with;

I always take into account the handlers ability and if I need to extra training is provided, the deadline, if the handler wants a quick fix/can't be bothered spending a couple of months out of the years they are going to have the dog for training I send them to someone else. My experience has showen me quick fixes aren't always permanent. Before the client comes to me and actually spends any money I always warn them of a possible time frame and costs.

Sometimes you also can't avoid the dog practising the behaviour, what do you do then if you that's not the time to apply a 'positive solution'?

I make sure I set the training scenario up so they don't get to practise the behaviour. Yes sometimes I don't get it right first time but then we do set it up so it does become right, also I generally have a plan B when I go to a client just in case. By the time I start working with a client I have a very good understanding of background of dog and handler I don't just go to a training session no questions asked although this isn't always completely reliable.

cheers

M-J

[Aidan3]

I make sure I set the training scenario up so they don't get to practise the behaviour. Yes sometimes I don't get it right first time but then we do set it up so it does become right

I will just say, not a comment on the sub-thread that has formed here, but one of the advantages of shaping is that you can make lemonades out of just about any lemon that falls off the tree. I remember a follow-up visit to the vet after a bloat episode and subsequent surgery. Differential reinforcement of least intense response was the only ticket out of that little tantrum and it did the trick. A correction would not have been appropriate, there was nothing good to reinforce, no way to set the situation up any better, no way of avoiding it, no way of managing it, no tool to make things easier. Within about a minute and a half I had her targeting the surgery table, then the vet and everything was well again. Subsequent visits to the vet still get a conditioned emotional response, but severity has been substantially reduced so I would say the effects have been lasting.

[corvus]

Firstly, great to hear the OP is meanwhile having success with the front-attach harness. Woot!

Secondly, I think we are getting confused between training approaches and training tools. IMO, if you are applying a training method based in operant conditioning and it's not working, that's a problem with you, not the method not being suited to the dog. When you apply a training method through the use of a training tool, you are constrained by what that tool can do. So if the tool doesn't work, it doesn't mean the method doesn't work for this dog, just that there are other variables not being taken into account.

If you're serious about trying to train your dog in the least invasive and minimally aversive way, then the only thing holding you back is your own skill. Operant conditioning works equally well on any dog. Well, some dogs are a bit quicker than others...

Anyway, the point I was making before was about trainer downfall. It's not by any means that I think some dogs won't respond to rewards in certain situations. They always will. My concern is how quickly I can figure out what to reward when, how high the reward rate needs to be, the best way to deliver the rewards, what reward I should use, and what interruptor I should use. I would try a positive approach first every time, but in some rare cases with some dogs, I would not mess around trying to perfect the positive approach if it isn't very effective right away. But I'd happily spend weeks tweaking it in most cases. The more time I spend tweaking now the less tweaking I find I need the next time. I think where tweaking is not going to be a big deal it's a very valuable exercise.

[persephone]

lanabanana- that is a good update to read

[m-j]

I feel like a terrible owner not walkign him as often as I should. I always want to take him out but it's just usually such a stressful experience it's not enjoyable for me or him

Great news I'm so glad you feel better about going for a walk. Don't feel bad the experience wasn't pleasant so why would you want to do it. The main thing is that you realised the dog needed the walk and rather than give up you looked for advise obviously took on board the harness suggestion and it has worked for you, fantastic!!!. There are many people out there (not on this forum) that wouldn't.

I would like to applogise for going off on a tangent in your thread

cheers

M-J

[lanabanana]

We went out again last night (will keep using this harness until we get the smaller one over the weekend).

We havent been out tonight as I wasn't feeling well after work so we have just done some zoomies and ball play.

Anyway, we went last night and he does give the odd yank everynow and then, but it was most enjoyable. I even managed to walk him calmly with one hand (usually I owuld use two to ensure he couldnt get away/pull me over) and have a nice leisurely ciggy whilst I was walking him LOL normally I wouldnt bother as i wouldnt be able to hold it (yes I know filthy habit should stop).

So, thus far I am very impressed!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Lanabanana

My fave thing about the harness - after the control factor - is you get it with no doggy choking.

The harness I use is a little bit loose across the front. When the dog is in a sit position, the strap under the chest should be not loose but not tight either. You should be able to get a finger under it. I think I have mine a little bit too loose here as my dog can slip an elbow out of it when she rolls upside down, but so far - she's always rolled back into it. She got a bit porky and then I put her on a diet so I need to take it back in again.

Fit is extremely important. Do put a tape measure around your dog's chest to check the measurement and compare that to the recommended size for that chest measurement. If the one you have is working - it may already be the correct size and fit, but if the chest measurement suggests the next size down - then do try that.

So glad you're getting back out there.

[nicolatu]

Sorry for hijacking tread. My puppy is not interested in food at all when we are walking outside (its already his favourite food which is cooked chicken meat). What can I use to reinforce him for doing well or distract him?

[lanabanana]

Hi Lanabanana

My fave thing about the harness - after the control factor - is you get it with no doggy choking.

The harness I use is a little bit loose across the front. When the dog is in a sit position, the strap under the chest should be not loose but not tight either. You should be able to get a finger under it. I think I have mine a little bit too loose here as my dog can slip an elbow out of it when she rolls upside down, but so far - she's always rolled back into it. She got a bit porky and then I put her on a diet so I need to take it back in again.

Fit is extremely important. Do put a tape measure around your dog's chest to check the measurement and compare that to the recommended size for that chest measurement. If the one you have is working - it may already be the correct size and fit, but if the chest measurement suggests the next size down - then do try that.

So glad you're getting back out there.

heya

yea we did measure...and then grabbed the wrong one - in saying that, they didnt actually have any his size so i now know....so will get a new one when they have them in this weekend.

he is def too low and its on smallest size it can do....the attch bt sits down the bottom of the chest kinda saggy...but until we grab the other one itll do - as t still gives me more ocntrol if he does try to do anything he shouldnt.

I cant believe i had never eard of them before!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Yeah, I got lucky, a friend with a weimerana - her dog was wearing one, she met the lady (delta dog trainer) that sells them (the brand I have - though I don't think it matters which one much), in a coffee shop. And they got talking about dogs and control.

My dog club "doesn't believe in them". I've met heaps of trainers who just "poo poo" them without even looking at them or trying them.

I make it really really easy for people to try. I have flat collar on my dog and harness. I clip the lead on the collar and walk away from my dog, who pulls after me, and then I go back and swap the clip to the harness. The difference is dramatic. That's how I tried the first one I saw out - on the weimerana. He's one powerful dog. He ate his first one and is now on his second. Silly kids took him for a walk and left it on when they got back.

The way I correct my dog at the moment if she gets to the end of the lead, is to call her back. And she comes. It's good practice for both of us. Not sure about whether you can do the quick "pop pop" style of correction, but if it's working for you, why not.

nicolatu -

I have same problem with my dog - when we're on the footpaths she won't take anything, and doesn't seem to be able to hear me. She's getting better as she gets older and more familiar or comfortable with our local streets, I can give her a couple of treats close to the park as we leave, and a couple more close to my house when we leave or return.

I guess all you can do is build up from the back yard, to the nearest bit of footpath and then step by step out the gate. I haven't bothered, but you could spend the first couple of minutes of each walk practicing basic sit-heel work from the door/back gate to the front gate and out onto the footpath - really close to the house. I always make her sit before we cross a road. And I give her a pat and praise for doing that. If she doesn't, we just don't move forward until she does. So "sit when we stop" is very ingrained.

Do you know if your dog is acting scared and won't take a treat or just very excited and pleased and carried away. I've been told what you do is the same either way. Fear is hard though because stopping the walk - gives the dog what it wants, but continuing can increase the fear. Where as with excitement - you just stop till the dog calms down, and then continue when the dog is calm, and then stop again if it gets excited again. And you can change direction to calm a dog if the cause of the excitement is that way. If the dog is scared of everything, it won't matter which way you go.

Of course, you need to be able to stop the dog first - hence my (front attach) harness recommendation for lanabanana.

[K9Nev]

I have never used a front attaching harness, but I am trying to understand how it works. A seasoned cronic puller isn't going to suddenly behave due to having a harness strapped on, so is it the aversive action of the harness coming under tension when the dog pulls acting as a correction, or is it applying a mechanical leverage advantage to restrain the dog's forward movement to control the dog more effectively???. Does the dog back out into loose leash walk on the harness or does it still run at the end of the leash with a reduction in pulling ability to the handler, seems like walking a far less powerful dog???.

Sorry for the techo question, but I am just trying to establish in my mind what the harness does

Edited June 10, 2010 by K9Nev

[lanabanana]

I am not an expert ont he way it works but for me personally it seems like a number of factors.

He doesn't like the tightening across his chest, plus like you say, it is like walking a much less powerful dog.

As you say, it is not goign to stop a chronic puller overnight and he does still pull but because he doesnt like the tightening and the associated swing outwards he falls back. The odd time when he doesn't fall back on his own and pulls hard to get to something I am able to easily position him where I want. I seem to have a much higher level of control with the harness.

My dog backs out of the tightened harness. So as soon as the harness gets tight, he stops walking until he is next to me - upon which he now gets a treat. Which used to happen with a choke chain but he would never stay there. He appears to be staying at my side for longer before moving forward. Maybe because he can feel the harness across his back or soemthing where as walking him on a choker or collar didnt matter as he always had soemthing round his neck.

I am under no illusions that if soemthing were to happen and he decided he really had to pull....he would still be able to pull me...but at least I am not hurting his neck whilst tryingt o get him under control and I would be able to more easily get him under control.

You raise a good point, I am really not sure why it appears to be working because honestly he is a bad puller - however, he does know what llw is...I don't knwo why it seems to be helping, but I am not goign to complain about it LOL

[Robbi]

I also have been using a front connecting harness on one of my dogs and I would like to re-iterate the ops point that they really do work. It seems too simple and I keep trying to work out the leverage system etc but I also think it gives the dog nothing to lean into.

I have had a few leash re-active moments with Abbie whilest we have been on walks and I have been simply able to turn and walk her in another direction since we have been using the harness, actually her re-actvity level seems to be dropping dramatically with the harness and "bar open, bar closed" approach

[Aidan]

or is it applying a mechanical leverage advantage to restrain the dog's forward movement to control the dog more effectively???. Does the dog back out into loose leash walk on the harness or does it still run at the end of the leash with a reduction in pulling ability to the handler, seems like walking a far less powerful dog???

Yes, mechanical leverage. The point of tether is in front of the dog. Then, if the dog does pull the pressure is applied to the opposite shoulder which turns the dog towards you. They can try to pull harder but if just works against them, they have nothing to pull into. So they don't bother, pulling is no longer effective, therefore it is no longer reinforced. It's a bit like shaking an empty bottle of sauce.

Natural position in the dogs I have seen is to walk slightly in front but on a loose leash. It is very easy to condition the dog to walk beside you from there, as they have given up pulling.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: It is always worth remembering that a behaviour that is deep set and is habitual may not be extinguished by simple lack of reinforcement.

The sauce bottle analogy is a good one but if you have ever seen a reformed smoker holding a pencil between their fingers years later you will know what I mean by habits that continue without reinforcement.

In my tests too I have not observed the dogs not pulling (they still do have leash tension for some time), but just not pulling as much...

[Aidan]

K9: It is always worth remembering that a behaviour that is deep set and is habitual may not be extinguished by simple lack of reinforcement.

The sauce bottle analogy is a good one but if you have ever seen a reformed smoker holding a pencil between their fingers years later you will know what I mean by habits that continue without reinforcement.

Indeed, and unless you make the conditioned stimulus something other than the harness they will pull as soon as you put them in something else. The evidence suggests that conditioned responses are never really "unlearned" whether it is extinction or punishment. We have to reinforce something else.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yep so it is technique AND tool, rather than just tool...

[Red Fox]

My dog club "doesn't believe in them". I've met heaps of trainers who just "poo poo" them without even looking at them or trying them.

This probably has to do with the fact that you can't trial a dog in a harness. No point moving up through the classes with the eventual goal of putting an obedience title on the dog if you can't work your dog on a collar...

efs

Edited June 11, 2010 by SecretKei

[Staranais]

K9: It is always worth remembering that a behaviour that is deep set and is habitual may not be extinguished by simple lack of reinforcement.

The sauce bottle analogy is a good one but if you have ever seen a reformed smoker holding a pencil between their fingers years later you will know what I mean by habits that continue without reinforcement.

Indeed, and unless you make the conditioned stimulus something other than the harness they will pull as soon as you put them in something else. The evidence suggests that conditioned responses are never really "unlearned" whether it is extinction or punishment. We have to reinforce something else.

I think this is one reason I do not really like head halters, I think the head halter is so constantly obvious to the dog (the dog is always aware of wearing the halter since it's on his actual face), that the dog very easily associates the non-pulling behaviour with the head collar itself, which means it can be a lot of work to ensure the dog generalises the non-pulling behaviour to wearing a regular collar.

Far less work to fade a pinch or check chain than a headhalter since it "feels" just like a regular collar to the dog while the dog is wearing it.

I don't know how that would work as regards a non-pull harness, since I have never used one. It seems like it would be less obvious to a dog than a head halter (since it's not constantly sitting on his snout), but is still clearly different to a collar. Perhaps if you put the harness on a few hours before the walk, and then put the regular collar on just before the walk, the regular collar would then become associated with not pulling?

[Aidan]

I don't know how that would work as regards a non-pull harness, since I have never used one. It seems like it would be less obvious to a dog than a head halter (since it's not constantly sitting on his snout), but is still clearly different to a collar.

No appreciable difference. Anything you use is salient (and I would include even martingale collars in this). One way to do it (my preferred method) is to use a double-ended leash, the other end attached to a flat collar. Most people can manage the transition with this configuration and feel confident having the option still open. Once they are confident that the dog is actually conditioned to walk on a loose leash with distractions then they can unclip the tool end.