Chronic Puller! Help!

[lanabanana]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

I agree.

While Barney's recall slacks off a bit when there are other dogs round, if there are no other dogs he is better off lead than on and will heel and stay there

[Staranais]

My point was why should someone wean their dog off, say, a head collar or no-pull harness? You said off leash reliability is something everyone wants, and I'm saying you can have off leash reliability and still need to walk your dog on a head collar or whatever. It just depends on what you spend your time on. Off leash reliability it important for us because we mostly walk our dogs off leash at the dog park. They are way more reliable off leash than on because that's where we've put in most of our work. There's that tendency to switch off once they are on leash.

I don't know, I guess it's how you define offleash reliability, I would say it included walking nicely off leash & think it's unlikely a dog would be able to walk nicely for you offleash then suddenly start to pull when you clipped on a leash? Guess it could happen, I've just never seen it.

To answer your question, if the owners & dog are happy with the dog being on a head collar or harness, and don't want to wean it off, then I think that's cool. I've got nothing against them doing that. It's none of my business! But for those people who do want to wean the dog onto a flat collar, then I think which tools & methods are easier to wean off is a relevant consideration.

Aidan, I don't think my girl would walk nicely for anyone else no matter what tool she was on. Or do anything else on command for most people, for that matter! It's not something we've ever trained for, so I wouldn't expect her to do it. The stimulus discrimination thing you just said makes sense, thanks.

[corvus]

Yeah, but the leash adds a potential frustration factor. Off leash I might be able to get a nice whip-around when my dog is, say, ten metres away from me and heading in the opposite direction, but on leash I have approximately a metre to get that whip-around before he hits the end of the leash and goes into "OMG, I want to but I can't!" mode. I'm not that good! I find it hard to build it up to the reliability I need it at for the distractions we encounter when on leash. We are pretty close to there with Kivi, but it all falls apart when he's about 2 metres away from a dog that is heading our way and he just KNOWS he's going to get to say hi. I wish I could shout at them to stop coming closer when he's being an idiot, but it's only going to make me look like a nutter and I'm way too friendly to shout at strangers.

It comes down to exactly what you've said: what you have trained for. If you haven't trained a good heel under distractions on leash, then why would a dog that does it off leash necessarily generalise? For example, Kivi can do a nice informal heel on leash or off under distraction, but only if he's positioned so he can swing in from behind or from the side. Actually turning around if he's in front and returning to the side is completely different to him.

[Staranais]

It comes down to exactly what you've said: what you have trained for. If you haven't trained a good heel under distractions on leash, then why would a dog that does it off leash necessarily generalise?

Well, if you say it doesn't generalise for your dog, I'll just need to take your word for it. I've never had that problem. If a dog can trot along nicely at my side off a leash, then I've never personally seen them start pulling simply because I've clipped a leash onto their collar (I'm talking about attaching a nice loose leash, of course, or even attaching a line and letting the dog pull it - if you stick a leash on and start tugging at your dog then I imagine that would entirely change the way he perceives the situation).

But if your dog walks nicely offleash & then gets confused when you attach a leash, then I guess you'll just have to train through it if you are interested in doing so, just like any other type of distraction. I don't really know what else you want to hear?

[corvus]

I don't really know what else you want to hear?

"I understand" perhaps? You were the one that was confused. I was just trying to clarify by way of example.

Presumably some dogs are better at generalising than others. I tend to assume that if there's a detail in the surroundings that's different a known behaviour may as well be new. I've never seen a dog that heels off leash start pulling on leash, but I have no doubt it could happen with the right circumstances.

[Staranais]

"I understand" perhaps? You were the one that was confused. I was just trying to clarify by way of example.

Presumably some dogs are better at generalising than others. I tend to assume that if there's a detail in the surroundings that's different a known behaviour may as well be new. I've never seen a dog that heels off leash start pulling on leash, but I have no doubt it could happen with the right circumstances.

Oh I see, I thought you were saying your dogs could heel reliably off leash but had big issues when you put a leash on. But you're just saying that theoretically you think it could happen?

I see that theoretically it could happen. But I've never had it happen to me. And I think it's unlikely that it would, considering that a dog that can reliably heel off leash must have already generalised the behaviour very well around all sorts of other other distractions.

I guess if it ever does happen to me, I'll worry about it then.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Staranais

[corvus]

I see that theoretically it could happen. But I've never had it happen to me. And I think it's unlikely that it would, considering that a dog that can reliably heel off leash must have already generalised the behaviour very well around all sorts of other other distractions.

I'm not trying to push a point here, but I suggest that it's not so unlikely. For example, the dog park at it's busiest is less of a distraction for my dogs than a single dog on a leash when we are walking them on leash in the street. So that's kinda what I was getting at. For them to be good off leash in a distracting environment and on leash in a distracting environment is assuming the off leash environment is inherently more distracting than the on leash environment, but that's not necessarily the case if the off leash environment is the everyday one where all the training gets practised.

Eh, I think I'm just confusing the subject for no real reason. Never mind.

[Staranais]

I'm not trying to push a point here, but I suggest that it's not so unlikely. For example, the dog park at it's busiest is less of a distraction for my dogs than a single dog on a leash when we are walking them on leash in the street. So that's kinda what I was getting at. For them to be good off leash in a distracting environment and on leash in a distracting environment is assuming the off leash environment is inherently more distracting than the on leash environment, but that's not necessarily the case if the off leash environment is the everyday one where all the training gets practised.

Eh, I think I'm just confusing the subject for no real reason. Never mind.

Hmmm, now I'm confused again Corvus. So if your dog is walking off leash on a street, and you come across an on leash dog, would he have a reliable off leash heel in that situation?

Because if not, it seems to me the problem is nothing to do with the leash! It is just that he does not have a reliable heel in that situation, regardless of whether you choose to put a leash on him.

Now if you are telling me you can heel your dog happily past other dogs on the street when he's off leash, but not when he's on a loose leash, I find that unlikely and kind of strange (although I guess it could happen).

[K9Nev]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

Interesting point Corvus which I have seen a few times with competition dogs. But I don't think those dogs have really been taught to loose leash walk properly. Most of their training are specific routines which they do well, but often I have seen the handlers allow a bit of relaxed fooling around on leash after training which I think contributes to their leash behaviour. They will formal heel on leash, but in a relaxed state, will pull, dart around and misbehave.

Edited June 11, 2010 by K9Nev

[K9Nev]

But off leash reliability is something different again. You can have a dog that is perfectly reliable off leash but still pulls on leash.

I don't think it is? To me, good off leash reliability is pretty much the ultimate outcome of not relying on any tool.

I mean, if my girl walks nicely at my side off leash on request, then it's going to be a pretty easy step to keep her doing it when I put on the leash, no matter what tool she's wearing?

I'm confused, now.

My old boy wore a leash about once a month until recently when I hired a dog walker to come once a week. He is brilliant off-leash, walks quite well on a loose leash for me, but pulls like a freight train for his walker. I got her a front-attaching harness, problem solved.

The walker is not the pack leader. That's quite common for a dog to exhibit different behaviour with a person other than their primary handler.

[K9Nev]

It comes down to exactly what you've said: what you have trained for. If you haven't trained a good heel under distractions on leash, then why would a dog that does it off leash necessarily generalise?

Well, if you say it doesn't generalise for your dog, I'll just need to take your word for it. I've never had that problem. If a dog can trot along nicely at my side off a leash, then I've never personally seen them start pulling simply because I've clipped a leash onto their collar (I'm talking about attaching a nice loose leash, of course, or even attaching a line and letting the dog pull it - if you stick a leash on and start tugging at your dog then I imagine that would entirely change the way he perceives the situation).

But if your dog walks nicely offleash & then gets confused when you attach a leash, then I guess you'll just have to train through it if you are interested in doing so, just like any other type of distraction. I don't really know what else you want to hear?

I agree Staranais, a dog that will trot along in a relaxed heel off leash will do the same on leash. We have always trained and conditioned a loose leash walk first, then dragging a leash where the dog thinks they are still restrained which then progresses to off leash work. I don't think I would be brave enough to train the opposite way round and begin training off leash first up................I hate chasing dogs around that have no recall

[lanabanana]

My dog (as all dogs before) used to be taken down to the river and beach and was always off lead so he is much better behaved off lead. He will stay next to you while you walk along and generally come back when you call (as stated previously this can be a bit more unreliable if another dog is around) and he doesnt react to other dogs at all apart from going up for a sniff.

But he is (as this thread says) a chronic puller on-lead.

I can walk round my front yard with him without a lead and he will just stay with me but go in the front yard with a lead on and he will drag you all over the place.

Our other dog was not raised going to the river off lead so I imagine shed behave the same no matter what - we dont take her anywhere off lead though coz she is a naughty poppit. Her recall is crap even inside the house LOL

[Beny]

Hi all

Hope it's ok to add a slightly different question on here...

My two girls are great on lead when I walk them separately but the youngest one pulls really badly when they are together. I have been using the same training techniques (all the ones that the original poster mentioned) with her when they are together to try and solve it but no luck.

I believe it is a result of her competitiveness/jealousy with Iz that makes her need to be out in front (same as she needs to be the one getting pats, getting through doors first etc). Her herding instincts may also come into it, because even at the end of the walk when she is tiring, and therefore more in line with Iz she will keep sort of hip and shouldering her, as if to push her further to the left

Has anyone had experience with correcting chronic pulling with another (well behaved) dog present?

[poodlefan]

I see that theoretically it could happen. But I've never had it happen to me. And I think it's unlikely that it would, considering that a dog that can reliably heel off leash must have already generalised the behaviour very well around all sorts of other other distractions.

I'm not trying to push a point here, but I suggest that it's not so unlikely. For example, the dog park at it's busiest is less of a distraction for my dogs than a single dog on a leash when we are walking them on leash in the street. So that's kinda what I was getting at. For them to be good off leash in a distracting environment and on leash in a distracting environment is assuming the off leash environment is inherently more distracting than the on leash environment, but that's not necessarily the case if the off leash environment is the everyday one where all the training gets practised.

Eh, I think I'm just confusing the subject for no real reason. Never mind.

Actually you're not.

You've raised the concept of "situational obedience" where dogs can learn a behaviour in a specific environment and context and yet behave differently elsewhere.

A dog that heels beautifully in a triallng ring or in the backyard is not a guaranteed good heeler anywhere else. Ditto loose lead walking and recalls. I know of at least one handler who won a State Obedience title but basically had very little chance of an effective recall outside the formal environment of the trialling ring.

People often seem to forget that a behaviour needs to be generalised (different times, different situations, different distractions) before being considered generally reliable.

Then there is the fact that OWNERS often behave differently in different situations.. and dogs can read this.

Edited July 5, 2010 by poodlefan

[Aidan]

I have been using the same training techniques (all the ones that the original poster mentioned) with her when they are together to try and solve it but no luck.

I believe it is a result of her competitiveness/jealousy

Regardless of her motivation, you solve the problem the same way you would if she were on her own. Wanting to be out in front might be making it worse, but there is nothing you can do to stop her feeling that way except give her a reason not to be out in front and my preferred way to do that is to - never let a dog get anywhere on a tight leash, reward when in position. Nothing magical.

[Snoopy21]

Good timing for a bump for this thread. I have a whiplash injury today thanks to a particularly spectacular lunge to greet another dog yesterday (Willow not me!! I was just on the other end of the leash). We have been working at the loose leash thing, and Willow has been getting plenty of walks and has been pretty good. But what to do about the lunging? How do I lessen that very strong response to stimuli?

[Aidan]

But what to do about the lunging? How do I lessen that very strong response to stimuli?

You can either suppress it with punishment or reinforce an alternative response. Either way, controlled set-ups are the way to do it. I'm not running any classes until daylight savings, but this is something we would do lots of with Willow. My preference is to click as soon as they see the other dog, so they are still in position, haven't lunged, right where you want them to be. At an appropriate distance you can get a lot of reinforced trials in this way, when it starts to become anticipated that you will pay this you hold off and see what happens, if it goes "see other dog, head whips around back to you" then you can start clicking then, when they have looked back towards you.

When that is all good, we then work on on-leash greetings with no pulling.

[Snoopy21]

Nice!! I'll give it a go thanks Aidan. She usually (95%) gives attention when asked so is it OK to ask for attention in that situation or should it be her choice to give it to me?

[Aidan]

Nice!! I'll give it a go thanks Aidan. She usually (95%) gives attention when asked so is it OK to ask for attention in that situation or should it be her choice to give it to me?

Choice, don't ask. Say nothing.

[Beny]

I have been using the same training techniques (all the ones that the original poster mentioned) with her when they are together to try and solve it but no luck.

I believe it is a result of her competitiveness/jealousy

Regardless of her motivation, you solve the problem the same way you would if she were on her own. Wanting to be out in front might be making it worse, but there is nothing you can do to stop her feeling that way except give her a reason not to be out in front and my preferred way to do that is to - never let a dog get anywhere on a tight leash, reward when in position. Nothing magical.

Thanks Aidan. Patience and perseverance!