Chronic Puller! Help!

[Staranais]

Remember too what one person will class as 'very driven' will differ - I would class a working line Malinois as 'very driven', my little beagle who I train in food drive as quite low drive in comparison. How much experience have you had training very hard, high drive working dogs, Jeanne? How easily have you trained them out of an ingrained habit with positive methods 100% of the time?

I honestly don't understand why these threads always turn into a debate on positive vs negative, when it should really be about what works best for the individual dog.

Tee hee, I think my little malligator is trained 90% positively, and I don't think anyone would call her low drive. I don't really even know how you'd train a low drive dog with positive only, since they don't have drive for anything as a reward? It's easy with a high drive dog, since they always want something, so you always have leverage to make them do something.

But on the other hand I think I get away with that with her because I try to squelch her "bad" behaviours very quickly, preferably the first time she tries them out, before they can escalate into something really persistent or ingrained, as Huski and Corvus are saying.

Of course, I also may have just gotten away with using very few corrections since she's still pretty much a baby in some ways. I may change my tune when a few years has passed and become a pinch collar devotee for her. Hopefully not!

[huski]

LOL SA Daisy is trained mostly positively too, I just don't think that positive is always the best 100% of the time for all dogs and owners.

[Prydenjoy]

I honestly don't understand why these threads always turn into a debate on positive vs negative, when it should really be about what works best for the individual dog.

Funny you should say that, seeing as you're the one trying to turn it into a debate...

In relation to the original question I was just saying why not try a front attach harness before putting on a prong, what is wrong with that?

And I was just saying it is fair on the dog to find the least aversive method suitable to that dog, which I thought you might somewhat agree with. I never said it was wrong for anyone to ever use punishment, so why are you making out that I am and trying to start an arguement about it??

[huski]

Funny you should say that, seeing as you're the one trying to turn it into a debate...

In relation to the original question I was just saying why not try a front attach harness before putting on a prong, what is wrong with that?

And I was just saying it is fair on the dog to find the least aversive method suitable to that dog, which I thought you might somewhat agree with. I never said it was wrong for anyone to ever use punishment, so why are you making out that I am and trying to start an arguement about it??

And what if the 'least aversive' for the dog in question is a prong, not a front attaching harness or head collar?

I am responding to your idea that punishment/corrections should never be tried unless the owner has exhausted every single "positive" option.

Edited June 8, 2010 by huski

[Prydenjoy]

How much would it hurt to at least TRY a front attach harness? How would you know it wouldn't work if you didn't try it??

If you have a problem with wanting to find the most gentle method for a dog that is your problem, I stick by my belief that we should be as kind as we can to our dogs and yes, sometimes being kind may mean finding alternative ways to help more "driven" or stubborn dogs fall into line such as shock collars etc, but how on earth are we supposed to know that that is what the dog needs if we haven't tried anything else?

[Cosmolo]

It does hurt to try ineffective methods though. Because each time a method, tool or technique is tried and failed, the dog becomes that little bit more resistant to training.

How do you know what a dog needs without trying everything else first? Through experience. Many clients would not stick with you long enough to go through all your options Jeanne- they want a problem improved asap and sometimes it needs to be fixed asap.

[huski]

How much would it hurt to at least TRY a front attach harness? How would you know it wouldn't work if you didn't try it??

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"?

If you have a problem with wanting to find the most gentle method for a dog that is your problem, I stick by my belief that we should be as kind as we can to our dogs and yes, sometimes being kind may mean finding alternative ways to help more "driven" or stubborn dogs fall into line such as shock collars etc, but how on earth are we supposed to know that that is what the dog needs if we haven't tried anything else?

An experienced trainer/behaviourist will know what tool (if any) will work best for a dog once they've assessed it. I would be disappointed if I went to a trainer who made me try 101 things before finding one that works, keeping in mind that often when a person goes to a trainer it's a last resort and they want to see results ASAP otherwise they lose hope or interest altogether.

What makes you think that for all dogs, a front attaching harness is always going to be less aversive or "more gentle" than a prong or e-collar? What will work best will change from dog to dog and owner to owner. We should focus on using the best tool/method for the dog and owner, not force them to try a million things before finding something that will get results.

ETA: What Cos said

Edited June 8, 2010 by huski

[Prydenjoy]

How do you know what a dog needs without trying everything else first? Through experience. Many clients would not stick with you long enough to go through all your options Jeanne- they want a problem improved asap and sometimes it needs to be fixed asap.

OK but if you've got so much experience and have met the dog etc and you can make an educated decision you know your options and can still use the most "gentle" method for that dog, even if it does involve the use of aversives. Making blanket statements over the internet that someone should be strangling their dog or putting a prong collar on it rather than putting it on a harness (without even actually knowing how a front attach harness works) is another thing altogether. Puppy pre school classes (8 - 16 weeks) that tell owners that they must buy a check chain and have their pup on a check chain in class, regardless of breed etc (mini poodles, westies etc), is another thing that gets my goat (my club does this, and then I'm supposed to teach the classes). A trained professional that has worked with hundreds or thousands of dogs, that has a personal goal to use a gentler method if suitable to that dog (and handler), I don't have a problem with that, even if they do recommend more aversive methods for certain dogs. I do feel that many trainers use aversives necessarily when the dog would have learnt just as quickly with a bit of encouragement and training to behave appropriately.

[Prydenjoy]

How much would it hurt to at least TRY a front attach harness? How would you know it wouldn't work if you didn't try it??

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"?

Um because we are on the INTERNET and haven't met the dog, perhaps?

[huski]

How much would it hurt to at least TRY a front attach harness? How would you know it wouldn't work if you didn't try it??

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"?

Um because we are on the INTERNET and haven't met the dog, perhaps?

Why so rude I'm not talking about a specific dog, I am talking about tools and training and dogs in general.

[Prydenjoy]

Why so rude I'm not talking about a specific dog, I am talking about tools and training and dogs in general.

Because it seems you are disagreeing with everything I say just for the sake of disagreeing with me, without actually trying to get where I am coming from ;)

I'm talking in general too, trying more gentle ways in general is better than trying more aversive ways. If there is a firm knowledge of certain dogs and certain behaviors etc than you still know what your kindest options are, even if they do use aversives.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Jeanne

[huski]

Because it seems you are disagreeing with everything I say just for the sake of disagreeing with me, without actually trying to get where I am coming from ;)

Sorry Jeanne, I can't even recall the last time I responded to a post of yours so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the above.

I'm talking in general too, trying more gentle ways in general is better than trying more aversive ways. If there is a firm knowledge of certain dogs and certain behaviors etc than you still know what your kindest options are, even if they do use aversives.

Then why bring up that we're on the internet and haven't met the dog Following that argument, you have no more ability to recommend a no pull harness than someone does to recommend a prong.

I could never say trying gentle ways is better than using aversives because IMO what is best depends on the owner and the dog.

[m-j]

Not everyone has the luxury of trying 1000 different "positive" things during which time the behaviour you are trying to stop can become more and more ingrained, then requiring a stronger aversive/correction to stop it by the time you do exhaust all the "positive" avenues.

I don't agree with this as when applying a positive solution to something you shouldn't get the dog in the position where it feels the need to practise the behaviour, if you are intentionally you aren't doing it right jmho. Applying a gentle correction in which the dog does get to practise the behaviour (to some degree) in order for you to be able to apply a correction which doesn't work with will create a dog that will have a stronger extinction burst and you do have to up the ante. Just as distracting a dog that has loaded up (with the emotion/drive that creates the behaviour, without actually displaying the behaviour) with a motivator will not work with a low (motivation) drive dog or an ingrained habit.

The way I see it positives and corrections are worlds apart, not a modified version of each other if that makes sense .

cheers

M-J

Edited June 8, 2010 by m-j

[huski]

Not everyone has the luxury of trying 1000 different "positive" things during which time the behaviour you are trying to stop can become more and more ingrained, then requiring a stronger aversive/correction to stop it by the time you do exhaust all the "positive" avenues.

I don't agree with this as when applying a positive solution to something you shouldn't get the dog in the position where it feels the need to practise the behaviour, if you are intentionally you aren't doing it right jmho. Applying a gentle correction in which the dog does get to practise the behaviour (to some degree) in order for you to be able to apply a correction which doesn't work with will create a dog that will have a stronger extinction burst and you do have to up the ante. Just as distracting a dog that has loaded up (with the emotion/drive that creates the behaviour, without actually displaying the behaviour) with a motivator will not work with a low (motivation) drive dog or an ingrained habit.

The way I see it positives and corrections are worlds apart, not a modified version of each other if that makes sense .

cheers

M-J

But that assumes that there is a positive solution that can be applied successfully and as efficiently as a correction in all situations and I can't agree that's always the case.

You need to take into account the handler's ability too; the deadline the trainer may be working with; how ingrained the habit/behaviour is etc etc. Sometimes you also can't avoid the dog practising the behaviour, what do you do then if you that's not the time to apply a 'positive solution'?

[Prydenjoy]

Oh Husky, you really aren't getting ANYTHING that I am trying to say, so I will stop trying. You wont hear from me again in this thread

[lanabanana]

Well, we went for our first "street walk" with the front attaching harness today.

Honestly, the harness is too large. We have accidentally bought an XL instead of a L so will need to change it. However, the actual walk itself was the most pleasurable walk I have had with my boy in the last few years. My arms did not feel like they were going to fall off. I never felt like he was going to yank me off my feet.

He was a little over excited as, to be honest, it has probably been a couple of weeks since his last decent walk due to the frustration of walking him, so he was a little "yappy" but I actually enjoyed walking him tonight....well maybe enjoyed is a little strong but it was a great walk. I always try to get my partner to come walking because he is striong enough to handle Barney even at his worse but he gets very stressed by it so the dog does not get walked as often as he should.

We had a lead on the harness and one on his flat collar (I forgot to buy a double ended lead). The few times he actually pulled, the harness "tightened" and he would immediately stop pulling. Also, I am not sure if I should have done this, but when I could see he was about to pull, I gave a light tug to tighten the harness and he wouldn't pull. I managed to have my arms reasonably slack for the entire half an hour. Now, the odd time when he did manage to become a bit of a nuisance I was able to easily "control" him and get him back to where I wanted without really straining (he is very strong and I am not).

Now, because the harness is too big, the "attach" bit doesn't sit in the exact right spot but I can only assume that when I go back and get the correct size that the walk will improve even further.

Once we are walkign consistently nicely on the harness, I am going to start switching reliance to the flat collar, slowly but surely so he doesn't really notice.

Oh and another thing I noticed was, the odd dog bark we heard, he didn't react to as much as he normally would. I am not sure why this would be - maybe he was too excited to be going on a walk to bother barking back as he normally would.

I don't know yet if this is going to be the right solution but I will keep updating if anyone is interested.

FYI, he is now fast asleep on the chair next to me (his own chair, he doesn't fit on mine with me - 'sides pocket monster is taking up the tiny space next to me) instead of being constantly in my face wanting a cuddle (I do realise this is because of the fact he has had some exercise - even though not much). And we can now walk him every night and enjoy - thank god coz I need to lose some weight!

Thanks for all the advice and information. I feel like a terrible owner not walkign him as often as I should. I always want to take him out but it's just usually such a stressful experience it's not enjoyable for me or him. Looks like that is going to change thanks to all you people.

[Cosmolo]

Great job lanabanana- do make sure you get the smaller size as if the harness is too big it can take the leg out from underneath them. Use plenty of rewards now- really great rewards so that you heaviliy reinforce the right behaviour. Dogs can desensitise (and learn to pull again) on any piece of equipment but if you reinforce enough it shouldn't be an issue. Well done so far!!

[lanabanana]

Great job lanabanana- do make sure you get the smaller size as if the harness is too big it can take the leg out from underneath them. Use plenty of rewards now- really great rewards so that you heaviliy reinforce the right behaviour. Dogs can desensitise (and learn to pull again) on any piece of equipment but if you reinforce enough it shouldn't be an issue. Well done so far!!

he did get lots of praise and was looking quite happy with himself but i forgot the treats so will take those tomorrow night...he likes cheese a lot so mmight try some of that

[Aidan3]

Once we are walkign consistently nicely on the harness, I am going to start switching reliance to the flat collar, slowly but surely so he doesn't really notice.

At first, pick times where he is not distracted and has nothing to pull towards. Short bursts, reinforce the good stuff. Build it up. Be absolutely consistent, never let pulling achieve anything for him, even in the harness. If he can pull a little bit and get a sniff at something, he'll keep doing it. If you identify that he wants to go over to something, let him - so long as it's on a loose leash.

Oh and another thing I noticed was, the odd dog bark we heard, he didn't react to as much as he normally would. I am not sure why this would be - maybe he was too excited to be going on a walk to bother barking back as he normally would.

He would be calmer and more sure of what he is supposed to be doing which is very settling.

Glad it's working out, do keep us updated.

[lanabanana]

Once we are walkign consistently nicely on the harness, I am going to start switching reliance to the flat collar, slowly but surely so he doesn't really notice.

At first, pick times where he is not distracted and has nothing to pull towards. Short bursts, reinforce the good stuff. Build it up. Be absolutely consistent, never let pulling achieve anything for him, even in the harness. If he can pull a little bit and get a sniff at something, he'll keep doing it. If you identify that he wants to go over to something, let him - so long as it's on a loose leash.

Oh and another thing I noticed was, the odd dog bark we heard, he didn't react to as much as he normally would. I am not sure why this would be - maybe he was too excited to be going on a walk to bother barking back as he normally would.

He would be calmer and more sure of what he is supposed to be doing which is very settling.

Glad it's working out, do keep us updated.

Thanks for those extra tips!! I do try to make sure he doesn't sniff anything if he has pulled me to it and will really keep on top of that with your advice as I would not like him to think he can keep doing it.

Thansk for the tip about "when distracted" - I didn't think of that but that seems like really good advice!

Will definitely keep you updated. I feel like a bit of a dork because I am just so stoked that we managed to have a walk without it being stressful and I have been going on about it to my friend who has called (she doesn't like dogs and is not excited about it but thats not stopping me LOL)