Chronic Puller! Help!

[lanabanana]

Unfortunately, from what I can see, there is no trigger.

It is like he just prefers to walk at the end of the lead right where it feels like my arm is going to come popping out of my socket.

I am not sure if I mentioned but all other previously owned dogs have been excellent on leads with flat collars - no tools necessary, so it's not like I don't know how to teach them to walk nicely but I just obviously haven't found the right way for this particular dog.

It can be quite frustrating. However, bearing in mind triggers, I will be extra alert on the next walk to see if there is anything that gets him pulling - it's definitely not a "nose to the ground" type of thing though.

[lanabanana]

Whoops didnt realise there were so many posts - thought i was still on like page 2.

Will have to go back and read other advice now lol

[lanabanana]

Wow - loads of advice and different opinions.

Ok let me see if I can remember some of the queries and points and respond to them.

1. He goes nuts if he sees another dog while on lead. First he starts by barking really excited and if I don't get away from the situation he will escalate to growling and turning into a savage wee beasty. I am not sure where this stems from whether it is fear, aggression or anxiety or whether he is just super super excited. When introduced to other dogs at home, he will get his hackles up and whinge and then he is right in for the play - it is almost like he is a puppy.

2. Static heel - he will walk sometimes heeling for a decent period of time but he will never stay there for the whole walk.

3. am really jealous of all other owners in this area as none of them use leads at all and the dogs just follow along behind. I can't do this as admitedly, his recall is terrible, particularly if another dog is around

4. I would never PTS for any reason like this. He is my buddy, I love him to pieces.

5. He used to walk nicely on the lead up until I think about 18 months of age.

6. If I put his lead on and walk him round th eback yard, he walks like an angel usually. But as soon as you are out the front door - bam!

I can't remember anything else I wanted to say lol

I have decided that for now, we are going right back to basics. We are going to have a 15 minute training session with each dog per day to reinforce basic obediance and recall. We will probably also introduce a front attaching harness so we are at least able to walk him without too much issue (I usually do this at night so lkess likely to encounter other dogs and have a hard to control rection) with a back up of a second lead attached to his flat collar so that as he improves I can start switching reliance to the flat collar.

I am prepared to put whatever effort is necessary to help us and him become the owners and the dog I know we can both be (gag - soppy), and this goes for the midget too).

If our attempts above don't seem to be working, I will definitely bring in a trainer. He is pretty smart so he does cotton on quickly and I did at one stage after 3 weeks of trial and error have him walking reasonably well on the lead but he wen for a walk with his dad and the next night was a mess on lead so its probably safe to say Dad shouldnt be walking him in future.

Granted, it is my fault as his owner that he is not a nice walker, but we have tried a lot of different methods to get him there and some have worked temporarily but never permanently.

I cant think of anything else - it's late. LOL

[Black Bronson]

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting.

This is the scene:

One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

Edited June 4, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Snoopy21]

I thought we were talking about dogs that pulled on the lead BB not aggressive dogs (which may require a different approach entirely)?

Lanabanana:

You could be talking about my dog. She is never aggressive and I don't have to worry about her attacking anyone dog or person, but she does have a strong prey drive. We practiced in the yard (with treats or aversives to let her know what was expected). Then we practiced in and out of the gate, then we practiced in the front yard, and then the driveway etc. So she is learning to apply what she knows to lots of different locations. And this is ongoing. I have to teach her how to behave in each different location we go to because she just gets so excited.

Other dogs....well I won't give advice on this one because I haven't had to deal with aggression at all. We do attend an obedience class weekly that allows us to work near other dogs as a distraction. Do you think your dog reacts because it is on lead especially since other dogs arennn't? I would think that this would be intimidating for some dogs (they might feel trapped?).

[Kavik]

I mean this with respect- but i really think some people need to go out and work with a few hundred dogs and owners (now- in todays society) and then come back to discuss further.

Not everybody listens to the trainer they hire. And some that do are not capable of doing certain things- no matter how hard they try- this is why flexiblity within a trainer and a wide range of techniques is a good and powerful thing. Reality is worlds apart from 'ideal'.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN!

[Snoopy21]

I would also think that someone who couldn't keep there temper was a pretty poor animal trainer. That could just be me though.

[Aidan3]

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting.

This is the scene:

One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

BB, to be honest I'm not sure that having this discussion is very profitable for either of us. Your most recent comments demonstrate ignorance of principles of behaviour and modern equipment that does not fit into your experience and understanding, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed much since the 1970s. If you don't understand that a front attaching harness prevents the dog from pulling, or the most basic principles of classical conditioning (which was studied and well understood 50 years before Koehler started yanking and cranking) then how do we ever get to the same page?

I have a client with a rescue dog who was aggressive towards toddlers, children, had bitten adult men, and wouldn't let other dogs near him. He was muzzled, medicated, and kept away from everyone. She started working with me and suddenly her dog was playing with other dogs and letting men approach. We did not use a single correction with this dog, not even so much as a leash pop or verbal reprimand. He was not perfect, she could walk him off-leash around other dogs, but he was still fairly terrible with kids because we hadn't worked on that.

Then she fell pregnant. Fast forward three years and she has just had another baby, her extended family has grown, and her daughter has friends over. While she closely supervises, the dog is clearly comfortable with children now and she has no real concerns for their safety or her dog's anxiety.

Why do I tell you this? Not in the hope that you will change what you do, but in the hope that you will broaden your perspective of what is possible and maybe accept that there are different ways of doing things which are effective, and possibly even more effective. I do not consider a dog who is acting out of avoidance to be safe around things that he is still afraid of - at least when they were barking and lunging everyone knew what to expect.

As far as a 45kg person being dragged around by a 40kg aggressive dog on a front attaching harness, have you ever used a front attaching harness? I originally ignored your question because it just seemed such a silly thing to ask. The same as your comments on my friend with the GSDs, are you a 45kg vegan woman? If not, then your experience does not correlate with hers. I'm a 105kg powerlifter, rugby second rower and dog trainer; you could give me a couple of Malamutes in pulling harnesses and I would be able to walk them nicely. How does that relate to my 45kg vegan friend? Zero relevance.

Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed.

[Red Fox]

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting.

This is the scene:

One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

I thought we were talking about dogs that pulled on the lead BB not aggressive dogs (which may require a different approach entirely)?

Yeah but it's all relevent isn't it?

Personally I dont think that Aidan would put someone in that situation. BUT that's not to say that someone reading an internet forum who has an agressive dog that pulls on the leash and no idea about what they are doing wont think it's a good idea

Swap BB's scene for one where you have a large exuberant, super friendly dog who goes ballistic with excitement on seeing other dogs (or even people) and happens to be wearing a head collar. (Which has likely been recommended to them by a friend, not a qualified trainer).

What happens when that dog bursts over his threshold and launches himself into a great big play bow before his in-experienced owner can do anything about it? What happens to that dogs neck?! And even if the owner could recognised the signs of the dog approaching his threshold (which can be a matter of a split second), how would you snap the dog out of it when you have no means of correction?

The problem is not so much experienced trainers handing out a tool which they believe will benefit their particular client, but the fact that some of these tools are so widely accessable to the general public WITHOUT the knowledge of how to use them.

You wouldn't put a prong collar in the hands of an in-experienced owner either, but at least you can't buy them off the supermarket shelf!

You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN!

Still happens Particularly when you mention correction collars at the wrong obedience club

[Red Fox]

Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed.

I dont know Aidan... how can a dog having his neck contantly pulled to one side be any good for him? I can think of quite a few doggy chiro's who would beg to differ with you...

Edited June 5, 2010 by SecretKei

[huski]

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

And back in the "good old days" you wouldn't see the range of breeds we do competing in various dog sports. I wonder how many scent hounds those old school trainers managed to train to competition level?

I wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking to me in such a disgusting abusive manner, you'd have to be a real pushover to take that crap

[Aidan3]

Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed.

I dont know Aidan... how can a dog having his neck contantly pulled to one side be any good for him? I can think of quite a few doggy chiro's who would beg to differ with you...

I don't think any constant tension around the neck is a good idea, and a flat collar can be damaging in the long term. I do much prefer front attaching harnesses (and double-ended leashes), but the majority of dogs on head halters are not walking with their head being pulled to one side - they just walk normally and unrestrained. What's more, they are aware of the halter so they don't lunge in the same way that dogs on flat collars or check chains do.

I know of at least one doggy chiro who is vocal about head halters but where are the academic papers? Where are the case studies? There aren't even any real attempts at investigation into this alleged problem. If there are thousands upon thousands of dogs out there wearing head halters and no actual data to suggest that they cause damage (above chance) then you would have to conclude that the problem probably does not really exist.

Granted, it is not easy to publish a paper in a reputable journal without a good study design and that would require funding but if there were enough anecdotal reports funding could be found. This would make a very good thesis for a vet science graduate because, if there is enough anecdotal evidence, then it would be relevant (and relevance is right up the top of the list for academics and journals).

But so far, nothing. And nothing in so many years with such a large sample suggests to me that it's not a genuine issue.

You raised the issue of calming a dog down in this situation. With such an effective means of control as a front-attaching harness or head halter you simply calmly walk away.

[Red Fox]

Are there any studies proving that they are NOT dangerous?

[kamuzz]

Black Bronson, have you ever met someone that, regardless of the amount of training they have completed, could not use a correction collar properly? Or could not use it to the degree required for their dog?

Front connecting harnesses are a godsend for some of my clients and their dogs. It allows them to control the behaviour enough so that they have something to reinforce, rather than wrestling with the dog all the time.

Yes I have, but generally by trainers that are not good at teaching the training concept. In fact, I have known some great trainers who can train a dog themselves extremely well, but struggle teaching someone else how to do it.

Disagree with you there BB. I'm one owner who doesn't get it or can't put it together. And that is certainly not a reflection on the trainer that I've used as there are plenty of people (on this forum too) who have successfully trained with him.

Black Bronson- what would you suggest we do with people who are not as committed or as consistent as we'd like, with people who did in fact choose the wrong dog for them, people that 'shouldn't own dogs' but do etc etc? Being direct about fixing something doesn't make a single bit of a difference if its an impossible or impractical direction.

Re-educate as best you can...........keeping in mind if the owners had the answers and expertise, why are they hiring a trainer???. Surely they are open minded enough to listen to what a training professional has to say???.

Sometimes life gets in the way. Sometimes all the "mind" in the world doesn't translate through into day to day life.

Actually maybe I should start a new thread before we highjack this one any more. What shall we call - training tools for challenged owners?

[Aidan3]

Are there any studies proving that they are NOT dangerous?

Not to my knowledge. They have been in use since 1980 with no evidence suggesting a need to investigate.

Here's an interesting one, "Owners of dogs wearing head collars may be interested to know that their dogs are not physiologically stressed when the collars are initially applied, despite nose pawing." http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/arti...0113-0/abstract

So much for the common objections "but he hates it" and "but head collars are aversive". Data speaks volumes.

[huski]

Are there any studies proving that they are NOT dangerous?

Not to my knowledge. They have been in use since 1980 with no evidence suggesting a need to investigate.

Here's an interesting one, "Owners of dogs wearing head collars may be interested to know that their dogs are not physiologically stressed when the collars are initially applied, despite nose pawing." http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/arti...0113-0/abstract

So much for the common objections "but he hates it" and "but head collars are aversive". Data speaks volumes.

Can that really be applied to all dogs who wear head collars? A friend of mine put one on her Siberian and he clawed at his face so much in desperation to get it off, that he made himself bleed. Surely a dog would have to be under some sort of stress to cause themselves that much harm Or how about the dog I saw at dog school who fought and fought and fought against the collar the instant it was put on, threw himself on the ground doing the crocodile roll to try and it get it off and refused to walk with it on - surely that dog is stressed in some way?

And it doesn't explain why I see dogs completely shut down when put on a head collar, then perk right up again once it's taken off. I'm no expert, but obviously the head collar had to have had some negative effect on the dog to cause that reaction.

Edited June 5, 2010 by huski

[Erny]

But so far, nothing. And nothing in so many years with such a large sample suggests to me that it's not a genuine issue.

There are reports on injuries from head collars, but they are anecdotal. Thing is, the neck injury might not be evident straight away, so the link to how the neck injury was caused can only be deduced.

There are pictures of skin abrasion injury from fighting the head collar.

And I know of self-injury cases (first hand) where dogs have scratched themselves; rubbed; etc to the point of skin trauma.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Are there any studies proving that they are NOT dangerous?

Proving a negative can in some circumstances be impossible if not darn difficult and impractical. And personally, even if anyone wanted to try, I'd hate to see the experiments that would need to take place to prove this, because you would have to TRY to cause harm to see if it was possible.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

[Erny]

I'd like to read the full text, Aidan. Is it available somewhere where I don't have to register/pay for it? Not enough info in the "abstract" for me.