Chronic Puller! Help!

[Cosmolo]

Black Bronson- what would you suggest we do with people who are not as committed or as consistent as we'd like, with people who did in fact choose the wrong dog for them, people that 'shouldn't own dogs' but do etc etc? Being direct about fixing something doesn't make a single bit of a difference if its an impossible or impractical direction.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: what would you suggest we do with people who are not as committed or as consistent as we'd like, with people who did in fact choose the wrong dog for them, people that 'shouldn't own dogs' but do etc etc?

K9: Well I guess the answer "should be", re educate, but as you know Cos, it isnt that easy to tell people what they dont want to hear...

[Cosmolo]

But surely sometimes its also making the best of a bad situation. No good going on about how they should have purchased a different dog when they have their dog (that they love) in front of them. I want them to know enough to not make the same mistake again- but it doesn't change the situation as it is in front of me.

[Aidan]

It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication

Patients do things that they know are detrimental to their health all the time, including non-compliance with medication, failing to exercise, and even holding a fag up to their tracheotomy hole after having their throat cancer operated on. A lot of the time medication is prescribed simply to keep the patient functioning while they continue to eat food that is bad for them, continue to live stressful lifestyles, continue to drink to excess, smoke or take drugs, and continue to avoid exercise. These phenomenon are well understood in the field of health psychology but improvements in patient behaviour are probabilistic, i.e we can't make people do something, we can only increase the probability of it happening. The same is true in dog training.

Most of my clients have reactive dogs, usually a large breed, usually owned by a small female. These are the ones who tend to seek help because they have no means of controlling the dog. I'm quite happy to recommend a front-attaching harness or head halter to these people where appropriate. An aggressive, powerful dog is not going to be changed completely overnight and there is too much risk in letting them continue with equipment which will not restrain them if something goes wrong. It wouldn't be fair to sequester the dog completely when an option exists that lets the owner continue to safely walk the dog without fear of losing control. Behaviour modification can then be undertaken in safety. So even when the owner is committed to training it is still sometimes appropriate to advise them to use equipment which gives them control.

[Cosmolo]

Aidan said it better than me!

[Steve K9Pro]

C: But surely sometimes its also making the best of a bad situation.

K9: Oh yep of course it is, in fact I think it happens most of the time rather than some times.

No good going on about how they should have purchased a different dog when they have their dog (that they love) in front of them. I want them to know enough to not make the same mistake again- but it doesn't change the situation as it is in front of me.

K9: Yep agree 100%, unless the situation is turning dangerous I always come up with a workable solution to balance the dog and owner. As I said in my longer post, if you just berate people telling them about ideals, they just give up on the dog or give up on training.

In an ideal world people would train their dogs before bad habits set in, but our world is often more RE ACTIVE than PRO ACTIVE, but I also do feel change coming on. Our bookings for people who are thinking of getting a dog are up last couple of years.

People are booking training before they get the dog, have the baby and before problems set in, this is a real positive step.

[Erny]

I think perhaps there is too much emphasis being placed upon a dogs lifestyle which clouds training regimes trying to cater for people that in some cases shouldn't own dogs, or own the type of dog they have. Catering for people's needs is a good thing, but there is a line IMHO where catering as a priority overrides better training practices. Personally, I think some trainers allow people to create too many barriers to work within, and some of these barriers are unrealistic for successful dog training. Instead of trainers just nodding their head and agreeing to try and train around a set of owner imposed obstacles to cater for what people think they can and cannot do, sometimes it could be better to be educate the owner what needs to be done in a more direct way. It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication

Of course "education" is a very big key factor, BB, and is something I (and I expect all of us) who are in contact with people in a 'teaching' capacity do. But we're talking about the real world with all the humans in it, flaws and all, and the fact that it isn't so black and white as to be able to simply expect that the needs and capabilities of dog-owners are always going to match those of their chosen dogs.

Far better, IMO, to structure training (and I include methods and the different training tool styles in that) to give them a start that they want and are capable of fairly quickly. Either that will be enough for what both they and their dog requires, or it will at least be the 'light bulb' moment that motivates their enthusiasm for more and gives them an opportunity to achieve exactly that (ie 'more').

Talking within reason as obviously what the owner wants/is willing to do has to be something that is not harmful to the dog and that will also give the owner and the dog the (at least) beginnings of success so they can see it CAN be done.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Agreed K9- the more people we can get coming to training before they get a dog and/ or before they have a problem the better. But we will also always have those that for whatever reason left it a little late and thats why it is a good thing that we can add new, quality tools to our training kits- to benefit dog and owner.

[Black Bronson]

Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar?

My friend weighed 45kg, her dogs each weighed around 40kg. She liked to walk them at the same time. Her choice was entirely pragmatic. For e.g, I do remember her telling me a story about a bunch of drunk guys hassling her while walking the dogs one evening. The dogs were understandably agitated by this, but not protection trained.

That situation is similar to mine Aidan and have walked 2 GSD's for years on flat collars or check chains, but when the dogs are truly obedience trained, I don't consider that I can't control them or worry about needing something extra. My old fella was an aggressive lunger in his day that was an issue walking 2 dogs until I had him under control and behaving appropriately. A fully obedience trained dog that is reliable off leash doesn't need a head collar. The dogs could be picking up on your friend's anxiety if she is worried about being overpowered by the dogs.........I never think about it, mine will sit and drop in the crunch if necessary.

[huski]

A fully obedience trained dog that is reliable off leash doesn't need a head collar.

A dog could be trained in competition obedience but could never have been taught that pulling on the leash in certain circumstances gets them no where. Teaching a dog to do competition heel work and teaching them to walk on a loose leash are two different things.

[Black Bronson]

In years gone by, off leash obedience determined a training system's credibility

If this is the case then check chains rate pretty poor as an effective training system. If you look at the average trial ring heeling score of ALL competitors when the training system was all check chain compared to these days I know the average is far higher these days where the majority of training is done with positive motivational methods, not to mention the recalls.

If you can use a management tool to get an opportunity to provide the dog with reinforcement for llw I really can't see what the issue is

cheers

M-J

There was a time when Koehler style obedience training won everything and the dogs trained that way were millimeter perfect in their routines but some that were under heavy handed training (Koehler to extreme) although perfect in obedience, were considered flat in performance, didn't have "happy feet" I remember someone describing the flatness as.

Training evlolved from there adding positive reinforcement into the mix which resulted in the obedience and the "prance" of the dog in routines that scored higher points which overall was a better performance. But then (my opinion) it went too far with the positive in some training groups trying to eliminate corrections altogether to label aversive training in any fashion as being cruel. It's this menatility where the head collar and harness routine emerges from along with the clickers and treats which some believe that every dog in every circumstance can be trained this way which I disagree.

I made mention of the Cesar Millan videos I had seen.............me thinking not having seen his vidoes before that Cesar would be equipped with clicker, treats and head collar to follow the modern training techniques................and strike me pink, as I peer over my cup of coffee watching the vid..............he issued a leash correction to this rampard Bull Dog that was one of the worse pullers I have ever seen That dog was a nightmare on leash that was completely rehabilitated with leash work and common sense training.............beautiful I thought

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson- what would you suggest we do with people who are not as committed or as consistent as we'd like, with people who did in fact choose the wrong dog for them, people that 'shouldn't own dogs' but do etc etc? Being direct about fixing something doesn't make a single bit of a difference if its an impossible or impractical direction.

Re-educate as best you can...........keeping in mind if the owners had the answers and expertise, why are they hiring a trainer???. Surely they are open minded enough to listen to what a training professional has to say???.

[Black Bronson]

I think perhaps there is too much emphasis being placed upon a dogs lifestyle which clouds training regimes trying to cater for people that in some cases shouldn't own dogs, or own the type of dog they have. Catering for people's needs is a good thing, but there is a line IMHO where catering as a priority overrides better training practices. Personally, I think some trainers allow people to create too many barriers to work within, and some of these barriers are unrealistic for successful dog training. Instead of trainers just nodding their head and agreeing to try and train around a set of owner imposed obstacles to cater for what people think they can and cannot do, sometimes it could be better to be educate the owner what needs to be done in a more direct way. It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication

Of course "education" is a very big key factor, BB, and is something I (and I expect all of us) who are in contact with people in a 'teaching' capacity do. But we're talking about the real world with all the humans in it, flaws and all, and the fact that it isn't so black and white as to be able to simply expect that the needs and capabilities of dog-owners are always going to match those of their chosen dogs.

Far better, IMO, to structure training (and I include methods and the different training tool styles in that) to give them a start that they want and are capable of fairly quickly. Either that will be enough for what both they and their dog requires, or it will at least be the 'light bulb' moment that motivates their enthusiasm for more and gives them an opportunity to achieve exactly that (ie 'more').

Talking within reason as obviously what the owner wants/is willing to do has to be something that is not harmful to the dog and that will also give the owner and the dog the (at least) beginnings of success so they can see it CAN be done.

I agree Erny, what you have described is what I would expect the perception of a good trainer to be, but some trainers are not that way inclined, unfortunately.

[Black Bronson]

A fully obedience trained dog that is reliable off leash doesn't need a head collar.

A dog could be trained in competition obedience but could never have been taught that pulling on the leash in certain circumstances gets them no where. Teaching a dog to do competition heel work and teaching them to walk on a loose leash are two different things.

Yes, you are correct Huski that could happen indeed. But I wouldn't call that dog "fully" obedience trained in the case as that comment was made.

[Black Bronson]

It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication

Patients do things that they know are detrimental to their health all the time, including non-compliance with medication, failing to exercise, and even holding a fag up to their tracheotomy hole after having their throat cancer operated on. A lot of the time medication is prescribed simply to keep the patient functioning while they continue to eat food that is bad for them, continue to live stressful lifestyles, continue to drink to excess, smoke or take drugs, and continue to avoid exercise. These phenomenon are well understood in the field of health psychology but improvements in patient behaviour are probabilistic, i.e we can't make people do something, we can only increase the probability of it happening. The same is true in dog training.

Most of my clients have reactive dogs, usually a large breed, usually owned by a small female. These are the ones who tend to seek help because they have no means of controlling the dog. I'm quite happy to recommend a front-attaching harness or head halter to these people where appropriate. An aggressive, powerful dog is not going to be changed completely overnight and there is too much risk in letting them continue with equipment which will not restrain them if something goes wrong. It wouldn't be fair to sequester the dog completely when an option exists that lets the owner continue to safely walk the dog without fear of losing control. Behaviour modification can then be undertaken in safety. So even when the owner is committed to training it is still sometimes appropriate to advise them to use equipment which gives them control.

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Red Fox]

But surely sometimes its also making the best of a bad situation. No good going on about how they should have purchased a different dog when they have their dog (that they love) in front of them. I want them to know enough to not make the same mistake again- but it doesn't change the situation as it is in front of me.

But sometimes the 'wrong' dog can teach you a hell of a lot more about training than the 'right' one

If they love their dog and are committed to fixing the problem it shouldn't be an issue.

However, I completely understand that some people get to the point of either 'fix it now or PTS' and then yes, you can only work with what's in front of you and do your best

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

This concerns me too. If the dog has reached that point on a head collar then how do you stop it, how do you break through? A strong dog is either going to break free or break it's neck and that's a scary thought.

[Erny]

Re-educate as best you can...........keeping in mind if the owners had the answers and expertise, why are they hiring a trainer???. Surely they are open minded enough to listen to what a training professional has to say???.

Sometimes not, BB, surprising as that may be. Sometimes it takes a diplomatic approach to have the owner open-minded and trustful enough to allow you to lead the way. It doesn't happen often but I have had to work with and through some resistance against 'change'.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

I mean this with respect- but i really think some people need to go out and work with a few hundred dogs and owners (now- in todays society) and then come back to discuss further.

Not everybody listens to the trainer they hire. And some that do are not capable of doing certain things- no matter how hard they try- this is why flexiblity within a trainer and a wide range of techniques is a good and powerful thing. Reality is worlds apart from 'ideal'.

[Black Bronson]

But surely sometimes its also making the best of a bad situation. No good going on about how they should have purchased a different dog when they have their dog (that they love) in front of them. I want them to know enough to not make the same mistake again- but it doesn't change the situation as it is in front of me.

But sometimes the 'wrong' dog can teach you a hell of a lot more about training than the 'right' one If they love their dog and are committed to fixing the problem it shouldn't be an issue.

However, I completely understand that some people get to the point of either 'fix it now or PTS' and then yes, you can only work with what's in front of you and do your best

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

This concerns me too. If the dog has reached that point on a head collar then how do you stop it, how do you break through? A strong dog is either going to break free or break it's neck and that's a scary thought.

I have never heard a more correct statement SecretKie that is so right My old GSD was one of those dogs and I had him for 15 years. Beautiful loyal and loving pet, but a viscious nasty dog towards anyone or anything that didn't belong in our family/friend pack. The amount of people including a couple of trainers who recommended I should PTS, but I fulfilled the obligation to look after him and train him as I promised I would as an 8 week old puppy. Yeah......he bit two people in his time, not seriously but enough to have caused a DD order if the incidents were reported and fortunately talked our way out of it at the time............but this old boy was a total handful of dog with an over sharp fearful defensive temperament, but I learned more from him than I could in a lifetime of nicer dogs. I would never choose another dog like my old boy, one like that is enough, but he taught me how to handle all the worse traits in the book from a large powerful dog which now I appreciate the opportunity he gave me to learn something as a case of necessity to keep him alive, safe and out of trouble.

[Black Bronson]

I mean this with respect- but i really think some people need to go out and work with a few hundred dogs and owners (now- in todays society) and then come back to discuss further.

Not everybody listens to the trainer they hire. And some that do are not capable of doing certain things- no matter how hard they try- this is why flexiblity within a trainer and a wide range of techniques is a good and powerful thing. Reality is worlds apart from 'ideal'.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

Edited June 4, 2010 by Black Bronson