Questions About Breeders...

[Bilbo Baggins]

Whoa there - how can you say I DELIBERATELY left out the bit about the pup being inactive at 6 weeks. Why should I do that!!!!!!! I have not seen the pup. As I said, none of us have - have you? I made the point that none of us know if the pup is ill, good, bad or indifferent. My point is that the purchaser did not buy a sick pup, did not take home a 7 weeks old pup. I cannot imagine why they are inconsolable that the breeder refused to sell them the pup. They say for no good reason yet it appears that they did not want the pup - why would they want a pup they thought was ill? I would not want to buy a pup I thought was not well - at least without a vet check.

You say "the breeder became defensive NOT because the purchaser had doubts, but because of the questions in regards to health of the pups" - well the doubts were apparently about the health of the pup.

What did the purchaser want? Did they want to buy a pup they thought was ill? Did they want to buy a pup they thought had a temperament problem? Why didn't they ask about health tests BEFORE paying a deposit. What if the breeder had INSISTED that they take the pup? What would we be discussing then?????

If I go into a shop to buy something and then find it has a flaw or doesn't suit my needs and I get my money back I am VERY HAPPY!

The pup is the most important thing to me as a breeder - to make sure that the pup goes to someone who is going to be happy with it.

This is a BREEDERS community and I thought that to post on this you had to have bred a litter and be a member of a controlling body yet it appears the original post was not from a breeder? They have every right to ask questions of a breeder and to query the health of a puppy but shouldn't we breeders be asking ourselves if we proceed with a sale to someone who was not happy with the puppy? I am afraid if you could answer 'yes' to that then it would be against all the ethics of being a responsible breeder.

Bug if someone starts a thread in breeders they can reply. But they cannot post in a thread started by someone else.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Bug: Of course the breeder took a deposit. We all take deposits because we need some security if we are going to turn away other buyers.

That may be why you take deposits but not all breeders take deposits.

[WreckitWhippet]

Bug: Of course the breeder took a deposit. We all take deposits because we need some security if we are going to turn away other buyers.

That may be why you take deposits but not all breeders take deposits.

Why would any breeder want a puppy buyer to feel obligated to take a puppy, just because they feel they may lose a deposit. That's certainly not in the best interests of the litter.

[Bug]

I think it is very sad that the responses to ladyrita are so anti-breeder.

Unless you all know something that is being discussed privately how can you make the assumption that breeder is unethical. In my breed there are not many dna tests available.

I have no problem with ladyrita questioning the health of a pup if she thought something was not right but she cannot expect answers to dna tests if none are done in the breed. Do you know the breed and if this is true?

The media is so anti-breeder, vets are so anti purebred dog and generally do not have a high opinion of us dog breeders. The last place I would expect condemnation of a breeder without knowing all the facts and both sides of the story is on a Breeders' Community.

Some of the responses to ladyrita were

Personally I would be running a mile from this breeder.

Run a mile from this one and think yourself lucky they are backing out of the sale.

I am sorry to say Ladyrita that I dont think this is the first time the breeder has been like this.

Unfortunately there is to many of these shonky breeders showing up (although they are still the minority of breeders) and it is giving genuine ethical breeders a bad name.

I hope you get your deposit back but unfortunately I doubt this man will be generous given what you have already told us.

I totally understand that you did not realise that the breeder was not ethical or reputable, but you now know a few of the things to look out for.

Unfortunately being registered does not always mean being ethical.

This discussion became a character assassination of a registered breeder. It has been presumed he is shonky, he won't give the deposit back, he is unethical and not reputable. We have only heard one side of the story and it was an emotional one.

It is NOT UNETHICAL for a breeder to refuse to proceed with a sale if the buyer is not happy. Ladyrita clearly was not happy with the puppy or the answers she received to her questions.

It is very sad that breeders are so quick to presume that their peers are not as good or ethical breeders as themselves.

I am not saying that the breeder should have been defended - I am just saying the breeder should not have been condemned and insulted without us knowing both sides of the story.

Simply giving answers to ladyrita's questions and leaving out all assumptions would have been more in order. Some of the responses did nothing but gee up ladyrita's emotions until the whole tone of the thread was allowed to deteriorate to ladyrita calling the breeder a horrible troll of a man

[WreckitWhippet]

umm let's see, disappearing backs to the box and not wanting to be social, discharge from eyes and a breeder who said the pup could go at 7 weeks.

[Ozstar]

From what the OP has posted the breeder didn't seem to care that the pup was sick and when questioned on it the breeder became offensive. To me this does not sound like a breeder that I would want to buy a pup from and yes I would run a mile.

As an ethical breeder the first thing you do with a sick pup is seek vet care, obviously this breeder didn't otherwise they would of said so.

If it was my pup it would of been under vet care, the potenial owners told about it and offered a complete refund. I would never sell a sick pup nor would I sell a pup to anyone that was having doubts.

Regardless of what breed it is and how rare the breed is I'm am sure that there would be some sort of testing needing to be done, xrays, dna, eye certs etc. No breed is that healthy.

It is these sorts of breeders that are giving the rest of us a bad name and as far as I am concerned it should be name and shame then maybe things like this will stop.

Leanne

[lappiemum]

umm let's see, disappearing backs to the box and not wanting to be social, discharge from eyes and a breeder who said the pup could go at 7 weeks.

and don't forget the big head bit.

[badboyz]

I actually don't disagree with Bug on this one. We do only have the poster's point of view and should not be condemning another breeder just on hearsay. I know I have had people come to see a litter of pups, and they have been disappointed when some or all are sleepy and not wanting to "perform" for an audience. It is not because they are unsocial or sick, they are just sleepy. Puppies do not play on cue. Some will sleep while others play.

I for one will not invite anyone to see my pups before 5wks of age. Also I have a breed that can have eye issues, and may have pups with eye tacking, at the time. I do not hide this from people and it does not mean the pup is sick or will be more likely to have issues later - in fact I have found that those tacked very early in life seem to have less issues later than in pups done at a later time. We do not know if the breeder was tired, had a bad day, or just weary talking to new over-anxious puppy buyers. We do not know if the op arrived on time or and hour late - throwing out the breeder's plans for the day. I know it annoys the bejeebers out of me when people say they will be here at a certain time and I go to the trouble trying to organise feeding/cleaning etc so that everything is in order for their arrival, only to get a call an hour later saying - ooh sorry we are just leaving now!!!!

To the OP, you have every right to ask any questions you wish, preferably before you put down a deposit. I am not saying you are wrong in what you say, and the pup may well have been sick/the breeder questionable, but there may be other circumstances at work too. Hopefully you will be able to treat this as a learning curve and be better prepared next time.

[Wags]

I think it is very sad that the responses to ladyrita are so anti-breeder.

Unless you all know something that is being discussed privately how can you make the assumption that breeder is unethical. In my breed there are not many dna tests available.

I have no problem with ladyrita questioning the health of a pup if she thought something was not right but she cannot expect answers to dna tests if none are done in the breed. Do you know the breed and if this is true?

The media is so anti-breeder, vets are so anti purebred dog and generally do not have a high opinion of us dog breeders. The last place I would expect condemnation of a breeder without knowing all the facts and both sides of the story is on a Breeders' Community.

Some of the responses to ladyrita were

Personally I would be running a mile from this breeder.

Run a mile from this one and think yourself lucky they are backing out of the sale.

I am sorry to say Ladyrita that I dont think this is the first time the breeder has been like this.

Unfortunately there is to many of these shonky breeders showing up (although they are still the minority of breeders) and it is giving genuine ethical breeders a bad name.

I hope you get your deposit back but unfortunately I doubt this man will be generous given what you have already told us.

I totally understand that you did not realise that the breeder was not ethical or reputable, but you now know a few of the things to look out for.

Unfortunately being registered does not always mean being ethical.

This discussion became a character assassination of a registered breeder. It has been presumed he is shonky, he won't give the deposit back, he is unethical and not reputable. We have only heard one side of the story and it was an emotional one.

It is NOT UNETHICAL for a breeder to refuse to proceed with a sale if the buyer is not happy. Ladyrita clearly was not happy with the puppy or the answers she received to her questions.

It is very sad that breeders are so quick to presume that their peers are not as good or ethical breeders as themselves.

I am not saying that the breeder should have been defended - I am just saying the breeder should not have been condemned and insulted without us knowing both sides of the story.

Simply giving answers to ladyrita's questions and leaving out all assumptions would have been more in order. Some of the responses did nothing but gee up ladyrita's emotions until the whole tone of the thread was allowed to deteriorate to ladyrita calling the breeder a horrible troll of a man

Bug I have a tendency to agree with your sentiments. I have known other breeders to cop a hiding based on unfounded information or misunderstandings.

It may well be that this is merely a very heated misunderstanding and ought to have both sides of the story before judgment is made.

It might be more pertinent to answer the questions on the basis of the question itself, rather than add judgmental comments.

[Ozstar]

Bug I have a tendency to agree with your sentiments. I have known other breeders to cop a hiding based on unfounded information or misunderstandings.

It may well be that this is merely a very heated misunderstanding and ought to have both sides of the story before judgment is made.

It might be more pertinent to answer the questions on the basis of the question itself, rather than add judgmental comments.

It is all well and good to say that we are breeder bashing here but the fact that this breeder wanted his/her pup gone at 7 weeks leaves an ugly taste in my mouth. If he/she is willing to break that rule what other rules are they willing to break.

Leanne

[ladyrita]

I actually don't disagree with Bug on this one. We do only have the poster's point of view and should not be condemning another breeder just on hearsay. I know I have had people come to see a litter of pups, and they have been disappointed when some or all are sleepy and not wanting to "perform" for an audience. It is not because they are unsocial or sick, they are just sleepy. Puppies do not play on cue. Some will sleep while others play.

I for one will not invite anyone to see my pups before 5wks of age. Also I have a breed that can have eye issues, and may have pups with eye tacking, at the time. I do not hide this from people and it does not mean the pup is sick or will be more likely to have issues later - in fact I have found that those tacked very early in life seem to have less issues later than in pups done at a later time. We do not know if the breeder was tired, had a bad day, or just weary talking to new over-anxious puppy buyers. We do not know if the op arrived on time or and hour late - throwing out the breeder's plans for the day. I know it annoys the bejeebers out of me when people say they will be here at a certain time and I go to the trouble trying to organise feeding/cleaning etc so that everything is in order for their arrival, only to get a call an hour later saying - ooh sorry we are just leaving now!!!!

Hi Badboyz,

Actually we called the breeder to confirm with him the appointment time at least a day in advance and then continued with phone calls to inform him not only when we were leaving, but when we hit the freeway and when we were passing through various major towns – this was in order to convenience the breeder (phone records will show this). One of the towns we passed he said we should be at his place “in half an hour” – on the dot he was right. We were never late, always punctual. In fact, on the second occasion we beat him to his kennels. We waited patiently and were not worried by this as these things happen and we were just too excited to care as we just wanted to see the pup. We had asked him permission to take pictures and video record the puppies playing about which he happily agreed to. The puppy wasn't moving much at all as videos recordings will show but this did not stop us from falling in love with him as we can be heard saying "awww" "he's such a fatty" (a term of endearment)" and laughing at how cute he was. Our videos were mainly of that one puppy, as lethargic as he was because we weren't looking for a show but just to see how much he had changed in 2 weeks.

Given that, if he was having a bad day (we understand these do happen), he could have said “No, it’s not a good day today” when we called before we left home or even on the day when we asked about the puppy’s health. In the videos you can even hear him get excited about the puppies, in the background he was cheerful, didn't show any signs of being tired, shared pleasant small talk and even joked with us. You could even say he was possibly holding us back with all that he wanted to tell about that breed and even a breed similar to it - not quite relevant to what we needed to know, but we didn't mind. Excited as we were, we listened carefully - he was definitely not weary talking to "new-over anxious buyers" - this can be backed up by video evidence. He was actually quite polite and friendly with us until the questions were asked.

To the OP, you have every right to ask any questions you wish, preferably before you put down a deposit. I am not saying you are wrong in what you say, and the pup may well have been sick/the breeder questionable, but there may be other circumstances at work too. Hopefully you will be able to treat this as a learning curve and be better prepared next time.

Well said and that is exactly how we are viewing this – as a learning curve.

[ladyrita]

Why would you be inconsolable about not getting a puppy you thought was very ill.

The build up to getting this puppy (for my family anyway) was likened to the joy, excitement and anxiety that comes across when awaiting the arrival of a baby brother or sister. Not only had we bought everything that the puppy physically required (crate, food bowls, numerous sample packs of puppy food generously given to us by PREMIUM dog food companies (ARTEMIS, EAGLE PACK HOLISTIC, NUTRO so as to determine which food the puppy would prefer), dog bed, toys, collar with name tag ALREADY ENGRAVED etc) but we were all ready to provide the love that he would have emotionally required. As buyers we were ready on ALL levels to have this puppy and he was quickly taken away from us – along with our hopes and dreams of owning that puppy. How could one not feel upset by this?

It seems you were very unhappy with both the temperament of the puppy, the health of the puppy and the fact that it was not dna tested.

I don’t know how you have interpreted this, but to clarify, we were concerned about the puppy’s unwillingness to play with his siblings/interact at all and his possible eye problem but we NEVER said we wanted him DNA tested. I think you have been misinformed about that. Please read carefully.

You were right to ask questions about health tests etc - but BEFORE you committed to buy the pup!!!! It is not possible to dna test for all genetic problems in any breed. If it is a rare breed as you claim it may be that dna tests are not available yet for some of the problems. Questions about genetic testing should be done before you pay a deposit and if you don't like the answers you don't pay a deposit.

I suppose since we trusted the fact that this breeder was supposed to be reputable (and another Queensland breeder reminded me of this) asking about health tests was the last thing on our minds. In any case, if anything would come up, we presumed it would at the vet check required at 6 week vaccination. It was too early for us to make such queries. Since you are unaware of the circumstances, I’ll fill you in. We did not initiate either visit. He said that if we didn't go down to have a look, make a choice and put a deposit, we may lose out on a puppy - this is why we went up at 4.5 weeks. First visit, he asked if we were keen, which we said we were and he asked for a deposit. We handed him the cash, feeling like that was the only way we could have secured the puppy we chose - this was OUR security - not his! Once money was in hand, he invited us to visit in 2 weeks, when the puppies were mature so we could be sure of our choice and see them “running around”. We graciously accepted his offer and had no doubts at this stage of his reputation as a breeder.

If I was in your situation I would be happy that the breeder returned your deposit. I can understand your disappointment but it seems as though you gave the breeder every indication that you were not happy with the pup and no responsible breeder will sell to anyone who is not 100% enthusiastic about taking the pup.

As above we were 110% enthusiastic about giving a healthy puppy a happy home. We merely posed questions to the breeder and this was done the day after the vet had come to see the puppies. Knowing this, we asked what the vet had to say, our questions were sidelined by the breeder getting quite upset by us even asking! A simple “Yes the puppy is fine” or “No it seems he’s a little groggy” would have been good enough. Either way, it would have been nice to know. Since we really hadn’t asked the breeder a lot (based on that fact that we trusted him as a reputable breeder), we asked him if the parents were genetically tested or if the mother had previously healthy litters and he responded by saying “does that really matter?” He was getting increasingly upset by what we thought were perfectly legitimate inquiries.

Many breeders do not want to be bothered with people making visits - you were lucky that the breeder allowed you to do this. At 4.5 weeks old of course he was going to be very small and not all that active. You decided to wait until he was a little more mature - for what?

Such a shame that many breeders don’t seem to be interested in learning more about buyers and meeting them in person. As above, he invited us to visit him both times. For what? The second time was again at his behest, NOT OURS. It was his suggestion to see the puppies be more “active” and “running around” as he put it and to make sure we picked the right puppy. Thank God we did make the second trip!

This discussion has condemned the breeder for letting the puppy go at 7 weeks - yet you say The breeder also seemed to be wanting us to pick him up the following week . SEEMED - not SAID.

Clarification in order: The breeder did say “yes, look, if you want the first pick of the litter, come on Monday or Tuesday and be quick” my father asked “really that soon?” and he said “yes they’ll have their vaccinations tomorrow so they’ll be free to go after that”. Even in the phone conversation my father had with him, 2 days after his outburst (which the breeder has apologised for), he said that it was OK to take the puppies home so long as there were no other dogs in our home. Other breeders have now confirmed (Ozstar kennels and Bilbo Baggins included) this is a critical stage for all puppies. This 7th week pick up can be backed up by a vet appointment we made on Monday 31st May – the day the breeder confirmed we would receive the puppy and this appointment was made within the hour of coming back from the 2nd visit. Why would we have made the appointment otherwise? My vet can back this up. At that stage, both the vet and my family were unaware that the breeder was risking the health of the puppy so soon after vaccination or that it broke the DogsVic COE - as my family was under the illusion by the breeder that it was OK to pick up at 7 weeks and therefore did not see it important to mention to the vet.

Your opinion that the puppy sounded really sick was founded on advice from forums, vets, friends, other breeders - none of whom had seen the pup. You would have been better to have asked the breeder for a vet check to reassure yourself about the health of the pup.

As above, we did ask the breeder about the vet check and he was increasingly upset by our questions – legitimate as they were.

Further down in the initial posting the 'strange gunk coming out of the eyes' has changed to 'tearing/leaking".

That's just semantics - I really meant the same thing, apologies for the confusion. During both the visits (and I had asked the breeder permission), we had a collection of photos and videos of the puppy, which we proudly showed to our friends - a vet, breeders and some lay people (again these photos will not be posted here as I do not want to discredit the breed or the breeders) and they all felt that he looked unwell. The gunk was not only leaking out of his eyes but the vet noticed that it was also staining the fur around the puppy's eyes - an obvious cause for concern. Nevertheless, we wanted to confirm this with the breeder, since HIS vet had just seen him - that is why we asked our questions.

The deposit was refunded to a buyer who had doubts about the puppy.

It was discussed but we are still yet to receive it.

[ladyrita]

As a breeder what would you have done - insisted the sale proceed?

Ironically enough, the breeder called us 2 days after he retracted from the sale. He was apologetic and was the first to admit that he was “sharp” and “short” with us. Unexpectedly, he then OFFERED US THE PUPPY AGAIN. As, I presume you are a reputable and caring breeder, don't you find it strange that he was so adamant in his refusal to sell us the puppy two days before a complete 180 turn around? Would you have done the same? In any case, in my search for another breeder, a Queensland breeder told me that it was “probably best to continue with the breeder you are speaking to” So does that mean that you DISAGREE WITH THIS QUEENSLAND BREEDER because essentially she was recommending me to pursue this sale to proceed after we had been refused the puppy? – She is also a reputable breeder I believe.

I think it is very sad that the responses to ladyrita are so anti-breeder.

They are not necessarily “anti breeder” as you put it but anti-BAD-breeders in general. They have not swayed me to even consider buying from a pet shop or a Backyard Breeder (BYB) for a princess or fido mating, they have encouraged me to do more research and “not give up” – I will find my breeder and my puppy – that I am sure of.

It is NOT UNETHICAL for a breeder to refuse to proceed with a sale if the buyer is not happy. Ladyrita clearly was not happy with the puppy or the answers she received to her questions.

When did we say we were unhappy with the puppy? And ask for answers, we didn't receive any so how can we be unhappy by them? We were concerned, it was just answers to legitimate questions (as even you pointed out) which were not given. That was what made us confused about where the breeder was coming from. Maybe it was “not unethical” but:

1) An offer

2) An acceptance

3) An agreed amount to be paid

4) The acceptance of our deposit

Made it a verbally LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT – which was broken by the breeder - who never gave a valid reason as to why he rescind from the sale. Furthermore, it is definitely unethical that we were told to pick the puppy up at 7 weeks and illegal.

Some of the responses did nothing but gee up ladyrita's emotions until the whole tone of the thread was allowed to deteriorate to ladyrita calling the breeder a horrible troll of a man

Luckily for you, you were not the one on the receiving end of the abusive phone call, so you will not know how he spoke to me, or how he reduced me to tears. Or for that matter, how hard it was for us to get in contact with him after he blasted us when we questioned the puppy’s health and HE HUNG UP ON US. We HAD to call him from a DIFFERENT PHONE NUMBER (our phone records available) before he picked up our calls. This second call was to inform the breeder that we still wanted THAT puppy (based on the fact that we still thought that this “reputable” breeder would NOT sell us a sick puppy – even with our questions unanswered!), he would not listen to me, even as I apologised for asking (legitimate) questions and was very “short” and “sharp” with me– as he admitted in the last phone conversation he had with my father.

To sum up: You didn't answer any of the questions in my original post. In fact it seems that you wished to create responses that would "gee up" anti-LADYRITA sentiments.

Now to address everyone who is interested

Thank you for all those who answered my questions. That was all I came here for – definitely not to cause “character assassination” (clearly highlighted by the way I avoided mentioning the breeder or the breed) Although am I right to assume that at least one of you knows who he is? It made me feel that there are many GREAT, CARING AND GENEROUS breeders out there. Those of you who noticed the 2 x 4 hour return drives (me on my L plates, with my father, mother and sister in tow) + preparing for that third trip to pick up the puppy, would have an indication of the great lengths we would go through for that puppy. Most of your responses renewed my belief in breeders and I will now take leave from this forum to concentrate on finding that one special puppy from a breeder who are like many of you.

[SparkyTansy]

ladyrita and I hope you feel like you can come and visit again one day

[Bilbo Baggins]

ladyrita and I hope you feel like you can come and visit again one day

I second, third and fourth that SparkyTansy.

Very well and sensibly posted ladyrita.

You sure are doing your homework and I hope you find a pup soon. :D ;)

[badboyz]

In fact it seems that you wished to create responses that would "gee up" anti-LADYRITA sentiments.

I don't think this was the point of Bug's post at all. I think Bug was simply (and wisely) reminding all who responded, that there are 2 sides to every story and to be careful about jumping in so quickly with disparaging remarks about another breeder, without knowing any facts first hand. Nothing against you at all.

Edited June 2, 2010 by badboyz

[ladyrita]

I don't think this was the point of Bug's post at all. I think Bug was simply (and wisely) reminding all who responded, that there are 2 sides to every story and to be careful about jumping in so quickly with disparaging remarks about another breeder, without knowing any facts first hand. Nothing against you at all.

Hi everyone,

Well as I said I did leave this forum! But my friends/family have now taken a bit of interest in this thread and the replies...they might be the reason why the views have been so high :D And some of them noticed this:

If I was in your situation I would be happy that the breeder returned your deposit.

The deposit was refunded to a buyer who had doubts about the puppy.

Funny, my family/friends noticed I NEVER said the breeder was going to RETURN the deposit in ANY of my posts. I can't change all your opinions but it's just bizarre to think that this is coming from a "neutral" party who seems to have more information than the rest of you or possibly even myself!

In any case, the deposit was promised to be repaid but since it hasn't arrived yet, maybe bug could assist in the safe arrival of my deposit or maybe Auspost takes more than 4 days to deliver a letter within the same state...