Questions About Breeders...

[ladyrita]

For the purpose of anonymity the breed and breeder will not be disclosed as I'd like some neutral feedback.

4 weeks ago my family and I started looking for puppies from Breed X - this decision we have been making for 3 years now so it was not made lightly. After calling up breeders in Victoria, we had found Breeder Y who had puppies available.

Our first visit and having not known us very well, he took our deposit and promised us a puppy. 2 weeks ago we made the 2 hour drive there to visit the puppy but he was still very very small (4.5 weeks old) and wasn't very active. We decided to wait until he was a little more mature. Last Thursday we went to visit the pup again (he'd be around 6 weeks old). We noticed that the puppy was still very much inactive, didn't want to leave the whelping box to play with his siblings (he'd walk back into it as soon as we took him out) and was leaking some strange gunk out of his eyes. The breeder also seemed to be wanting us to pick him up the following week - the puppy would be 7 weeks old ONLY.

Naturally we were concerned and after asking around from different local vets, another forum (dedicated to Breed X) and other breeders, our fears were heightened as it seemed the puppy sounded really sick. So we called up the breeder. He was on the defence from the word go and his tone drastically changed with our questions about the puppy. He hung up on us and left the conversation up in the air.

We called him back and he would not answer our calls and finally, after ringing from a different number he picked up his phone but was extremely short with us and told us we could not have the puppy. Not because we did not meet any criteria (which he NEVER set) but seemingly because we were asking valid questions.

My question to the viewers of this forum are:

1) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about the health of a puppy if it seems unwell?

2) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about genetic testing of the parents? - The breeder implied genetic testing is not conducted much/if at all in Australia

3) Are breeders allowed to pull back from a sale based on such valid questions? - Please correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see anything wrong with asking these questions

4) Is there such a thing as a puppy's eyes tearing/leaking because he has "a big head"? - This was the breeders reason before he changed his mind and said "it was dust"

5) Does anyone know how the breeders are ranked on dogzonline? -He was a "blue ribbon" breeder so I presumed he was a reputable breeder but now I am unsure

I'd greatly appreciate your feedback Now on the search for a genuinely good (and hopefully HELPFUL AND HONEST) breeder!

[Ozstar]

My question to the viewers of this forum are:

1) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about the health of a puppy if it seems unwell?

Of course you are and any decent breeder would of seeked vet help and not sell an unwell puppy till it has been cleared by the vet.

2) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about genetic testing of the parents? - The breeder implied genetic testing is not conducted much/if at all in Australia

Some breeds in Australia don't have as much testing done in as in other countries, but if it is a simple DNA test it should be done and if the breed is known to have hip/elbow/eye problems then this should also be done. If a breeder tells you it is not need for their dogs run away.

3) Are breeders allowed to pull back from a sale based on such valid questions? - Please correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see anything wrong with asking these questions

If the pup in question was sick and not deemed fit to sell then yes I would refund the deposit on the pup. Personally I would not be buying this pup or from this breeder.Asking questions is not a valid reason.

4) Is there such a thing as a puppy's eyes tearing/leaking because he has "a big head"? - This was the breeders reason before he changed his mind and said "it was dust"

Never heard this one before

5) Does anyone know how the breeders are ranked on dogzonline? -He was a "blue ribbon" breeder so I presumed he was a reputable breeder but now I am unsure

Blue ribbon members pay annually, this does not make them a good ethical breeder.

Personally I would be running a mile from this breeder. You could try to get your deposit back but I would not be holding my breath.

Don't just by froma breeder that has pups availble now. Research the breeders and find a breeder that you trust, is doing all the right health tests and is willing to disscuss everything with you. This may mean you need to look outside of Vic.

Leanne

Edited May 30, 2010 by Ozstar Kennels

[WreckitWhippet]

Of course buyers are allowed to ask about the health of a puppy or question a breeder, if it appears unwell, inactive or different compared to the litter mates.

You also have every right to ask about and see proof of parents testing and any relevant testing the pups may have had before the leave home.

No ethical breeder would back away from a sale because a puppy buyer is asking questions about health testing or the condition of a puppy they are looking to purchase.

The answer to question 4 would be no and the breeder is basically looking for excuses. If a pup has discharge of any kind from the eyes or ears, it would indicate the pup is unwell , injured or possibly suffering from a hereditary condition.

Blue ribbon means that the breeder just pays to advertise and use the services provided by DOL, it is nothing to do with the breeders ethics.

If you are looking for an ethical breeder, start with the breed clubs, MDBA and word of mouth.

Run a mile from this one and think yourself lucky they are backing out of the sale.

[oakeydoak1]

I am sorry to say Ladyrita that I dont think this is the first time the breeder has been like this. Sorry you had this bad experience and hope that your next one is happier. Just thank your stars that you didnt get the pup home and it got really sick and you were stuck with a huge vet bill and maybe no pup.

[ladyrita]

Thank you all for taking the time to leave feedback!

As we've been talking about getting a puppy for this long, we knew that we had the right to ask those questions but I didn't think a breeder could take away the puppy from us because we asked them! Clearly not a very good breeder at all!

For want of a better word but keeping this PG, he was a very very nasty man and it was almost disgusting the way he treated us. We took 2 drives up to his kennels which were 4 hours return each - we obviously really cared about the puppy and wanted to see his progress. Not to mention all 6 members of my family had already opened their hearts for the puppy's arrival. We now have food bowls that will remain empty for a while, a collar which doesn't belong to a pup yet, a name tag which I feel obligated to change as that name already belonged to the pup we will never get and now have to call up the vet (being responsible owners we made an appt for the puppy for the day we were to receive him) to tell them that we are no longer getting a puppy! SIGH!!!

Thanks Leanne - I think we might just wait a while until we are over this disaster of a weekend and properly research the breeders before we get too emotionally invested in the pup!

SBT123 - As the breed we are looking for is quite rare, I've looked up a breed club but I don't think we have one in Australia! I've written to the MDBA to ask them about reputable breeders

oakeydoak1 - It's such a shame that this has happened before and might happen again! I feel almost as though I should expose this jerk so that no-one will have the chance to feel the heartache we have felt...what a nightmare this has been!

[Lynai]

You were so correct to be concerned and ask the questions you did, in the long run it it much better to leave a pup behind in a situation such as this.

I don't know how rare the breed is, but I would suggest speaking with as many breeders as you possibley can with a list of questions you wish to have answered prior to even visiting, this way you'll know if they get defensive or be less than forth coming on questions. Also advise to look for a contract that not only protects the seller, but looks out for the pup and the new owner as well. Contracts shouldn't only be one sided, but gives the new owner a course of action if their puppy ends up with hip dysplasia or some other genetic issue.

Good luck

[Ozstar]

it may be heart breaking now but just think how much worse it could of been if you had taken the puppy and it died within a few weeks

wish you and your family all the best in the future and am sure that the right pup will come along

Leanne

[Shelby]

It would also concern me that he was willing to sell the puppy at 7 weeks. Pups should not be sold until eight weeks of age or older.

I think you had a right to be concerned with the health and breeding of this pup. Sounds like there would have been nothing but heartache if it had been brought home.

[ladyrita]

lynai - yes we are now starting the process of calling up breeders and finding out more about their ethics and practices before we even think about purchasing from them!

leanne - I was in really bad shape yesterday (after that nasty phone call with that breeder) but now I'm looking at the bright side of things - can't imagine how mortified I would have been had we brought him home in such a condition. thanks for your well wishes!

shelby - I'm assuming now that he was trying to push the puppy on us and then blame us for taking him away too soon from his mother (in other word's making him less liable for the puppy's ill health) I was quite shocked when we went to see him on Thursday and he told us to pick the pup up on the following Monday...especially since the pup was only getting vaccinated the next day (Friday). I've since been in contact with another breeder who has told me that after vaccinations, puppies are really fragile and need to stay with their mother for at least 10 days following the vaccination just to be safe. I don't know if this is true but if it is then this is another red flag that this breeder is suspicious!

[Ozstar]

I've since been in contact with another breeder who has told me that after vaccinations, puppies are really fragile and need to stay with their mother for at least 10 days following the vaccination just to be safe. I don't know if this is true but if it is then this is another red flag that this breeder is suspicious!

I do the same.

leanne - I was in really bad shape yesterday (after that nasty phone call with that breeder) but now I'm looking at the bright side of things - can't imagine how mortified I would have been had we brought him home in such a condition. thanks for your well wishes!

I am sorry that your first experience with a breeder has been such a bad one.

Unfortunately there is to many of these shonky breeders showing up (although they are still the minority of breeders) and it is giving genuine ethical breeders a bad name.

I just can not stress enough to anyone looking for a pup to please do a lot of research not just on the breed of dog but on the breeders themselves. If you have any doubts about a breeder go on to the next one.

Leanne

[Bilbo Baggins]

ladyrita you have definitely done the right thing by stepping away.

It is against the DogsVic COE to sell a pup under 8 weeks.

A pup is not necessarily fragile as such after vaccination. My vet recommends 7 days after vaccination before going to the new home.

I would welcome all your questions, shows you have done some research.

[Joan of Arc]

For the purpose of anonymity the breed and breeder will not be disclosed as I'd like some neutral feedback.

4 weeks ago my family and I started looking for puppies from Breed X - this decision we have been making for 3 years now so it was not made lightly. After calling up breeders in Victoria, we had found Breeder Y who had puppies available.

Our first visit and having not known us very well, he took our deposit and promised us a puppy. 2 weeks ago we made the 2 hour drive there to visit the puppy but he was still very very small (4.5 weeks old) and wasn't very active. We decided to wait until he was a little more mature. Last Thursday we went to visit the pup again (he'd be around 6 weeks old). We noticed that the puppy was still very much inactive, didn't want to leave the whelping box to play with his siblings (he'd walk back into it as soon as we took him out) and was leaking some strange gunk out of his eyes. The breeder also seemed to be wanting us to pick him up the following week - the puppy would be 7 weeks old ONLY.

Naturally we were concerned and after asking around from different local vets, another forum (dedicated to Breed X) and other breeders, our fears were heightened as it seemed the puppy sounded really sick. So we called up the breeder. He was on the defence from the word go and his tone drastically changed with our questions about the puppy. He hung up on us and left the conversation up in the air.

We called him back and he would not answer our calls and finally, after ringing from a different number he picked up his phone but was extremely short with us and told us we could not have the puppy. Not because we did not meet any criteria (which he NEVER set) but seemingly because we were asking valid questions.

My question to the viewers of this forum are:

1) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about the health of a puppy if it seems unwell?

Of course! I would hope that I never have a puppy that sick but if that was the case, I wouldnt be allowing visitors, it would be kept in 'sick baby' to prevent further infection, distress on the pup's and viewer's part. I just wouldnt allow anybody to visit that pup = so you should not have seen that sick baby. Once you had, I would expect you to ask questions - after all if you didnt then you either a) were unobservant and didnt notice it was ill, or b) didnt really understand the difference between healthy and unhealthy - which means what?

2) Are potential owners allowed to ask breeders about genetic testing of the parents? - The breeder implied genetic testing is not conducted much/if at all in Australia

Of course depending on the breed there is either lots or very little testing. We do testing as do most of the people we are associated with. Given that, then I would anticipate a puppy buyer would ask lots of qustions, this shows they have done thier homework and know sufficient abou the breed to care for it.

3) Are breeders allowed to pull back from a sale based on such valid questions? - Please correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see anything wrong with asking these questions

I would be very suspicious of anyone who dodged questions about the health of thier dogs. And if I was looking for another puppy myself and someone was dodging my questions then I would not be considering a pup from them.

4) Is there such a thing as a puppy's eyes tearing/leaking because he has "a big head"? - This was the breeders reason before he changed his mind and said "it was dust"

Not in my breed or any other breed I know of. I think that's a porky pie.

5) Does anyone know how the breeders are ranked on dogzonline? -He was a "blue ribbon" breeder so I presumed he was a reputable breeder but now I am unsure

I'd greatly appreciate your feedback Now on the search for a genuinely good (and hopefully HELPFUL AND HONEST) breeder!

You say you are searching for a rare breed. Why not ask the DOLers if they can point you in the right direction. You dont have to ask them up front it that worries you - pick one or two and send them a PM - if they dont know someone with that breed, I almost guarantee that they know someone who knows someone.

I hope you get your deposit back but unfortunately I doubt this man will be generous given what you have already told us. Keep looking for your chosen breed, do more research on the breed and the breeders. Follow show and trial results on DOL - go to some dog shows or trials - and always no matter what anyone says - if your not sure ASK QUESTIONS.

Good luck

[Missymoo]

Aww man, how sad for you.

Heres my latest story which you may be able to relate to but this is from a reputable breeders side (me )

My last litter all pups were great until about 3 weeks when one pup seemed quieter and more lethargic then the others...I watched him and monitered him, gave him extra food (as I though he was being bullied away from it) and let him spent one on one time with me and toys and his mum to try to perk him up. he didnt look sick though. First vaccinations he was gone over, everything was healthy...

Our breed is shunt tested between 7 and 10 weeks old. ( you have to catch the vet at Werribee to do it) I actually said to her, if any of them has shunt it will be him.

....anyway, I had taken deposits for pups at 2 weeks of age and was running on a boy for myself....these families were as excited as you and I spoke to them regually and sent photos while the litter grew.

Shunt results were in, Yes the puppy had Liver Shunt I was devestated. BUT, I would rather know now then have a puppy die/get very ill at 9 months! Instead of saying 'no puppy for you, I let the family earmarked for him the boy I was going to keep, I personally would feel awefull letting them down and I knew he would have a happy family life!

This has been my second shunt now (and now I have a pretty good idea what lines its from), all diagnosed early BUT there is NO way in heck I would sell a sick pup!! The first pup I spent 3 days ringing round breeders to find a replacement pup (which came from SA and was tested clear!)

i am so sorry this happened to you but hopefully there are more good breeders then bad!!

When you find your new baby we want piccis! ;)

PS I welcome any questains and even tell people to ring me for anything no matter how silly!

I will show them any paperwork if they ask and they get thier pups testing records in thier puppy pack. I think I would worry if a pet person DIDNT ask questains!

Edited May 30, 2010 by Missymoo

[dancinbcs]

I too would be wary of any buyer who did not ask questions about the puppy's health status. My breed does a lot of health testing and most buyers are aware of it and ask.

Next time try asking on DOL for breeder recommendations. Many very good breeders are not members of the MDBA so don't just restrict yourself to them. If you name the breed and ask for PMs about suitable breeders you should get a good response from other breeders that personally know reputable breeders in your chosen breed. For most breeds, success in the show or trial ring is a good starting point to indicate a reputable breeder. Anyone breeding just for the sake of producing puppies is best avoided. Thenit is is matter of sorting the good from the bad among the show breeders.

[Starkehre]

ladyrita, this is very sad and unfortunate experience for you and your family. Not nice at all.

However, I hope that in days/weeks to come when you have had time to reflect, you can see this experience as a learning one that did not result in too much mishap.

We all get caught out at different times in our lives in a miriad of ways. As long as we learn from this, it can be turned into a positive.

Just imagine how robust and healthy your next puppy will be and the fantastic relationship you will have with the breeder after now seeing what can go wrong.

It is excellent that you and your family took a long time to decide on what breed to purchase. It is equally as important if not even more so to spend much time researching which breeder to purchase from. I totally understand that you did not realise that the breeder was not ethical or reputable, but you now know a few of the things to look out for.

Others have not been so lucky.

Take time to get over this experience, but please do not give up. There are many many wonderful, devoted and sincere breeders around. Allow a puppy waiting list to be your friend... ie. do not be in a hurry when you find the breeder you click with.

Best of luck

[ladyrita]

You are all such fantastic people and such great support!

Of course yesterday I was virtually inconsolable as the puppy was taken away from us so suddenly and for no decent reason at all! Now I am feeling very optimistic about getting a new puppy from a decent and honest breeder. I kind of wish that I had met you all before and maybe fallen in love with your breeds of dogs and worked with you instead of this horrible troll of a man! It definitely left a bitter taste in my mouth about breeders but this has been washed out by your kind words!!!

To all the breeders who agree that I was RIGHT to ask those questions - THANK YOU, not just from me, but from all potential buyers. I'm sure I'm not the first (and probably won't be the last) person to experience a dodgy breeder so it is great to hear that there are breeders out there like you who are happy for questions to be asked and understand that those questions are only being asked in the best interest of the dog! All breeders should follow your lead

Missymoo - You too must have been looking forward to keeping that puppy and it must have been a huge sacrifice for you to offer it to those buyers. This just shows what a kind and generous breeder you are!

dancinbcs - The irony is that we chose this breeder BECAUSE of the champion stud that was used at the matings. He is actually one of the best (so I've heard) in the show ring. Obviously he can show a dog, but I question his integrity as a breeder - and as a decent human being for that matter.

Dyzney - As a family, we are now taking that optimistic outlook - we have been mourning the loss of this puppy but we are adamant not to let this get us down too much!

Again thanks for all your support

[Christina]

How upsetting & disillusioning for you. Unfortunately being registered does not always mean being ethical.

You have your answers & thank goodness you did not end up with this particular puppy.

If anyone did an 8 hour round trip to visit I would be offering them lunch & a rest

I sincerely hope you find your puppy from someone really nice. They are out there.

[Bug]

Why would you be inconsolable about not getting a puppy you thought was very ill. It seems you were very unhappy with both the temperament of the puppy, the health of the puppy and the fact that it was not dna tested.

You were right to ask questions about health tests etc - but BEFORE you committed to buy the pup!!!! It is not possible to dna test for all genetic problems in any breed. If it is a rare breed as you claim it may be that dna tests are not available yet for some of the problems. Questions about genetic testing should be done before you pay a deposit and if you don't like the answers you don't pay a deposit.

If I was in your situation I would be happy that the breeder returned your deposit. I can understand your disappointment but it seems as though you gave the breeder every indication that you were not happy with the pup and no responsible breeder will sell to anyone who is not 100% enthusiastic about taking the pup.

As breeders it seems we have been quick to condemn the breeder without being able to hear the other side of the story. I wonder how many of us would have been happy to proceed with a sale where the buyer clearly had doubts.

If we don't know who the breeder is or have not heard their side of the story how can we claim they are unethical, not responsible etc.

"Our first visit and having not known us very well, he took our deposit and promised us a puppy"

As a breeder I got to know some of my puppy buyers very well and they have become lifelong friends but I did not know any of them very well at the time they first visited to look at a puppy. Of course the breeder took a deposit. We all take deposits because we need some security if we are going to turn away other buyers.

2 weeks ago we made the 2 hour drive there to visit the puppy but he was still very very small (4.5 weeks old) and wasn't very active. We decided to wait until he was a little more mature. Last Thursday we went to visit the pup again (he'd be around 6 weeks old).

Many breeders do not want to be bothered with people making visits - you were lucky that the breeder allowed you to do this. At 4.5 weeks old of course he was going to be very small and not all that active. You decided to wait until he was a little more mature - for what?

This discussion has condemned the breeder for letting the puppy go at 7 weeks - yet you say The breeder also seemed to be wanting us to pick him up the following week . SEEMED - not SAID.

Your opinion that the puppy sounded really sick was founded on advice from forums, vets, friends, other breeders - none of whom had seen the pup. You would have been better to have asked the breeder for a vet check to reassure yourself about the health of the pup.

Further down in the initial posting the 'strange gunk coming out of the eyes' has changed to 'tearing/leaking".

None of us know if the pup is sick, good, bad or indifferent or who the breeder is or whether they are good, bad or indifferent.

It is sad that a "Breeders' Community' is so quick to condemn a breeder.

A sick puppy was not sold. A seven week old puppy was not sold. Who says, apart from the disappointed purchaser, that the sale was terminated because questions were asked. The deposit was refunded to a buyer who had doubts about the puppy.

Nobody would be taking a puppy home from me unless they were absolutely 100% enthusiastic about the puppy. Better to refund a deposit than have a puppy changing homes or an unhappy buyer.

As a breeder what would you have done - insisted the sale proceed?

[SparkyTansy]

bug while I agree with you that people dont know the other side of this, there is one thing you missed pointing out in your post. The fact that a breeder became defensive NOT because the purchaser had doubts, but because of the questions in regards to health of the pups. You also deliberately left out the rest of a sentence which explains why the buyers were still concerned with the pup at 6 weeks - because the pup was STILL inactive during a time when puppies should not be.

[Bug]

Whoa there - how can you say I DELIBERATELY left out the bit about the pup being inactive at 6 weeks. Why should I do that!!!!!!! I have not seen the pup. As I said, none of us have - have you? I made the point that none of us know if the pup is ill, good, bad or indifferent. My point is that the purchaser did not buy a sick pup, did not take home a 7 weeks old pup. I cannot imagine why they are inconsolable that the breeder refused to sell them the pup. They say for no good reason yet it appears that they did not want the pup - why would they want a pup they thought was ill? I would not want to buy a pup I thought was not well - at least without a vet check.

You say "the breeder became defensive NOT because the purchaser had doubts, but because of the questions in regards to health of the pups" - well the doubts were apparently about the health of the pup.

What did the purchaser want? Did they want to buy a pup they thought was ill? Did they want to buy a pup they thought had a temperament problem? Why didn't they ask about health tests BEFORE paying a deposit. What if the breeder had INSISTED that they take the pup? What would we be discussing then?????

If I go into a shop to buy something and then find it has a flaw or doesn't suit my needs and I get my money back I am VERY HAPPY!

The pup is the most important thing to me as a breeder - to make sure that the pup goes to someone who is going to be happy with it.

This is a BREEDERS community and I thought that to post on this you had to have bred a litter and be a member of a controlling body yet it appears the original post was not from a breeder? They have every right to ask questions of a breeder and to query the health of a puppy but shouldn't we breeders be asking ourselves if we proceed with a sale to someone who was not happy with the puppy? I am afraid if you could answer 'yes' to that then it would be against all the ethics of being a responsible breeder.