Grain Free Dog Food In Australia

[JulesP]

I personally would prefer my dogs not to look like wild dogs They usually look like they could do with a feed and I imagine the wild dogs would be most happy with a bit of kibble.

[stormie]

Steve Brown's article comparing the main RAW foods is an interesting read....

http://www.seespotlivelonger.com/articles/...0Comparison.pdf

[blacklabrador]

I personally would prefer my dogs not to look like wild dogs They usually look like they could do with a feed and I imagine the wild dogs would be most happy with a bit of kibble.

Wild dogs look like they do because they have to expend a lot of energy to catch their food, they live outdoors and are exposed to the elements and at certain times don't get enough food to keep themselves in good condition. Any hungry dog is "happy" with anything that resembles food - most 5 year olds are "happy" with Maccas for lunch too.

A far cry from the average raw-fed show dog which struts around the showring with a beautifully groomed coat who gets enough calorie intake every day and doesn't have to hunt for food.

My dogs are fed on raw and look nothing like wild dogs. They look like lean, healthy beautiful pedigree dogs.

[JulesP]

Some people have no sense of humor.

[blacklabrador]

Some people have no sense of humor.

This is a serious discussion and you made no indication that you were attempting to make a joke. I've heard less logical justifications for feeding commercial food than that.

[Diva]

I always have two cautions in the back of mind when I wonder if a raw/barf /prey model is absolutely the best food for my dogs in this day and age.

The first is that the nutritional quality of the human grade meat I buy has itself changed with farming methods- for example, I have read reports from human nutritionalists on how much less iron is in a chicken drumstick from the meat birds bred today than even 25 years ago, and the lesser amount of that nutrient today in the same quantity of chicken was staggering. I have also read that the nutritional analysis of a grain feed animal isn't the same as in a grass fed animal - the amount and proportion of different types of fat is different for one thing. Not as much of an issue here as in the USA but a lot of our meat animals even here are finished off on grain.

The second thing that sticks in my mind is the anecdotal stories from people with breeds similiar to mine, and these are relatively old breeds, that their traditional diets were nowhere near as rich in fat and protein, and that nutritionally dense 'western' diets are not good for these breeds. It's just anecdotal but it kind of correlates with the article stormie posted.

It reminds me not to get too precious in recommending a prey model diet - which is what I mostly feed - as if it were a perfect answer.

[stormie]

I just try not to be too precious at all when it comes to diet these days. Dogs have a pretty good ability to be able to survive on just about anything. Obviously we want them to have a balanced diet and be healthy, but I do wonder if people stress way too much about what they feed.

But again, if you've got the time and the interest to get everything balanced down to the right percentage - awesome. But if not, I wouldn't stress too much.

[Diva]

But again, if you've got the time and the interest

I go to ridiculous lengths, even I can see they are ridiculous, like getting wild rabbit, hare and vension into their diet and giving them a wide diversity of meat sources, types of offal etc. But I also know I could do half the work for a third of the xpense and still given them a pretty good diet they'd do OK on, even including a premium kibble. I just enjoy the efforts I go to

[blacklabrador]

I always have two cautions in the back of mind when I wonder if a raw/barf /prey model is absolutely the best food for my dogs in this day and age.

The first is that the nutritional quality of the human grade meat I buy has itself changed with farming methods- for example, I have read reports from human nutritionalists on how much less iron is in a chicken drumstick from the meat birds bred today than even 25 years ago, and the lesser amount of that nutrient today in the same quantity of chicken was staggering. I have also read that the nutritional analysis of a grain feed animal isn't the same as in a grass fed animal - the amount and proportion of different types of fat is different for one thing. Not as much of an issue here as in the USA but a lot of our meat animals even here are finished off on grain.

The second thing that sticks in my mind is the anecdotal stories from people with breeds similiar to mine, and these are relatively old breeds, that their traditional diets were nowhere near as rich in fat and protein, and that nutritionally dense 'western' diets are not good for these breeds. It's just anecdotal but it kind of correlates with the article stormie posted.

It reminds me not to get too precious in recommending a prey model diet - which is what I mostly feed - as if it were a perfect answer.

I don't think there's a perfect answer. We can't change the type of meat we have access to but even at a lesser nutritional content, it's way more appropriate than anything else we have access to.

[stormie]

But again, if you've got the time and the interest

I go to ridiculous lengths, even I can see they are ridiculous, like getting wild rabbit, hare and vension into their diet and giving them a wide diversity of meat sources, types of offal etc. But I also know I could do half the work for a third of the xpense and still given them a pretty good diet they'd do OK on, even including a premium kibble. I just enjoy the efforts I go to

Oh don't worry, if those meats weren't so expensive to buy I'd be doing the same! I have thoughts of rabbit and goat farming purely to supply Orbit with food

[~Anne~]

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

What has evolution done to the digestion process of dogs now, compared to dogs then?

I don't know the definitive answer, but evolution alters many things, not just the physical appearance. Dietary requirements of canines now I imagine would be different to what they were at the dawn of time. Many dogs nolonger require stamina and strength and many more breeds have been introduced along these lines as well.

I see it similar to the human appendix. I have heard (although I haven't researched it) that the appendix is slowly becoming obsolete in the human body. This is, I assume, because the human is evolving too.

I could be very wrong in my line of thought though.

You can alter phyiscal appearance in one generation. You CANNOT alter anything on an internal functional level over even a few generations. Not on a noticable level anyway - it takes a lot longer and it a lot slower than that.

The appendix theory actually relates to the question about whether it used to be a second stomach. This would have been utilised back before man ate meat and was eating only foliage and possibly grains and actually REQUIRED more than one stomach for that digestion like other Ruminants do. So how long ago was that? It wasn't 50 years, it was probably tens of thousands, yet the organ still exists in a non functioning form. Does that give you some idea of how long evolution takes? This theory is only theory and there are other schools of thought that say that the appendix exists for a whole other set of reasons.

To propose that dogs digestive systems have been able to evolve to be able to utilise all this new food, when they've evolved to eat a diet of mostly raw meat for their whole existance through time, is one of the most misinformed theories that I've ever come across. The fact that dogs now look like very specific breeds does not alter their gut function because evolution just doesn't work that quickly.

I am not proposing or even trying to suggest in any way that evolution occurs in a few generations. To think so would be plainly stupid and to assume I was thinking that is possibly even more stupid.

Dogs have been domesticated for around 15,000 years I believe, and in extistance for possibly up another 15,000 years before domestication. Domestication has seen their needs change from being hunters to scavenger-hunters. Studies show clearly that the canine has evolved. In fact, it has evolved from the wolf.

Add to this the fact that we now selectively breed dogs and you have a canine that now no longer requires stamina nor does it have any hunting need or drive in some breeds.

Has this altered the digestive system? I have no real idea as I stated. However, it can't be discounted.

Can 15,000 years of different nutritional and energy needs and 15,000 years of scavenger food from humans, cause the canine digestive tract to evolve? I think it can. Does this mean dogs can live on a grain based diet in this day and age? They do, so obviously they can, but is this because of an adaptation or evoluntionary process? Possibly.

I don't have the answers and can only base my opinions on what I know, read and understand. I am always open to learning though.

[JulesP]

Some people have no sense of humor.

This is a serious discussion and you made no indication that you were attempting to make a joke. I've heard less logical justifications for feeding commercial food than that.

No this is a discussion about a certain type of kibble. It is not a discussion about Barf or prey diet.

[blacklabrador]

Some people have no sense of humor.

This is a serious discussion and you made no indication that you were attempting to make a joke. I've heard less logical justifications for feeding commercial food than that.

No this is a discussion about a certain type of kibble. It is not a discussion about Barf or prey diet.

I didn't specify what kind of discussion it was. My contributions have related directly to a grain free diet and I have no control over what other people write. I don't think this particular kibble has been discussed since the original (and obvious attempt at promotion) by the OP.

[JulesP]

It was quite clearly a discussion on a particular dry dog food that was hijacked by overly zealous raw feeding people. I am objecting to that and I feed raw! Just getting really sick of raw people butting into the kibble threads.

[blacklabrador]

It was quite clearly a discussion on a particular dry dog food that was hijacked by overly zealous raw feeding people. I am objecting to that and I feed raw! Just getting really sick of raw people butting into the kibble threads.

It was quite clearly an advertisement for a new food which responders clearly either don't care about or don't know enough to comment about. Of course, whether feeding such a food is of any benefit or not will become the focus of the topic - that's how discussions naturally progress. Of course any discussion regarding eliminating grains from a dog's diet will involve feeding raw food because that is how the majority achieve that.

[Erny]

I tend to agree with BB's post/response.

I've asked a question about the food that was the original subject of this thread, and it hasn't even been graced with an acknowledgement let alone an answer.

[cazxxz]

I always have two cautions in the back of mind when I wonder if a raw/barf /prey model is absolutely the best food for my dogs in this day and age.

The first is that the nutritional quality of the human grade meat I buy has itself changed with farming methods- for example, I have read reports from human nutritionalists on how much less iron is in a chicken drumstick from the meat birds bred today than even 25 years ago, and the lesser amount of that nutrient today in the same quantity of chicken was staggering. I have also read that the nutritional analysis of a grain feed animal isn't the same as in a grass fed animal - the amount and proportion of different types of fat is different for one thing. Not as much of an issue here as in the USA but a lot of our meat animals even here are finished off on grain.

The second thing that sticks in my mind is the anecdotal stories from people with breeds similiar to mine, and these are relatively old breeds, that their traditional diets were nowhere near as rich in fat and protein, and that nutritionally dense 'western' diets are not good for these breeds. It's just anecdotal but it kind of correlates with the article stormie posted.

It reminds me not to get too precious in recommending a prey model diet - which is what I mostly feed - as if it were a perfect answer.

Changes to farming practices will have affected the meat that is used in kibble as much as it has affected human grade meat, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to your opinion of a raw diet? In your mind and mine, the best diet is still going to be raw.

[leepy]

Well everyone seems very passionate here about what they think is right.

I just wanted to add that I found this forum because I have a dog who has EPI and SIBO which in short means even though he is getting double the amount of food he should for his age and weight he is litterally starving to death before my eyes. There is nothing more heart breaking than to watch your beloved family pet waist away to skin and bone. The answer to his problems among other things is a grain free diet raw food does not work for my dog and sourcing a grain free kibble in Australia has been hard for me (I must admit I am in the early stages of looking) EPI doesnt seem to be as big a problem in Australia as in America. So any company that offers a grain free variety to me is a god send. Any one else reading this that has an EPI dog in Australia please feel free to contact me and maybe we can compare our stories.

[Shmurps]

Well everyone seems very passionate here about what they think is right.

I just wanted to add that I found this forum because I have a dog who has EPI and SIBO which in short means even though he is getting double the amount of food he should for his age and weight he is litterally starving to death before my eyes. There is nothing more heart breaking than to watch your beloved family pet waist away to skin and bone. The answer to his problems among other things is a grain free diet raw food does not work for my dog and sourcing a grain free kibble in Australia has been hard for me (I must admit I am in the early stages of looking) EPI doesnt seem to be as big a problem in Australia as in America. So any company that offers a grain free variety to me is a god send. Any one else reading this that has an EPI dog in Australia please feel free to contact me and maybe we can compare our stories.

That's very sad. What's EPI

Have you tried K9 Natural?

[leepy]

EPI is Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency basically the pancrease stops functioning and enzymes are needed for life to help the body process the goodness in foods but I am a learner to all this but that seems the basis of it. There are many other things that also help along the way eg B12 shots weekly diet antibiotics for the secondary condition of EPI which is SIBO the story goes on and on and the bills and products. Basically its a long hall of trial and era it seems but they tell me once the condition is stable which could take months the dogs can return to a healthy weight and lifestyle. This is a link I have found helpfull on my journey http://www.epi4dogs.com/