Grain Free Dog Food In Australia

[Shmurps]

I would email EP for example they are very helpful and quick to reply.

[stormie]

I would email EP for example they are very helpful and quick to reply.

Good idea. I emailed Euk, but I will email our EP rep today too. Thanks!

[Mas1981]

Erny - its not just allergies that are a problem. Some dogs have food intolerance issues too. Others have things like EPI, or inflammatory bowel disease.

As to why some cope better on commercial over raw, I can't be sure. Raw meat, whilst easily digested, I would say is overall quite rich and obviously bones in the diet mean more digestion needs to take place.

Many people believe that because the commercial diets have grains in them, they're not very digestible, but this isn't quite true. The part of the corn which is so indigestible is the main husk, but the meal inside is highly digestible. And grains like rice are also very digestible and easy on the stomach.

Interestingly, many dogs who don't tolerate raw meat, can cope very well if the meat is cooked, which again I put down to being not so rich?

Another thing I would add is that the dogs who have a more sensitive stomach, can often not do very well on the holistic diets, like Eagle Pack, which I wonder if its due to the complexity of the food - there's so much in it and it's also quite rich, where as something more commercial like Eukanuba, Advance etc, doesn't have as much meat and may not be so irritating to the stomach, being simpler, so they can do better on it.

But as to the whys of it all, I think it would come down to the individuals problem, whether they can't digest it properly, of the intestines are too inflamed to cope with bones etc etc...

I had the opposite with my dog, he can eat raw but its kibble he gets the runs on and if i do have to feed him kibble, Holistic Select is the only one he can tolerate

[Diva]

The other thing I'm trying to find out at the moment, is how the actual ingredients list works. They say the ingredients are listed in order of weight, most to least. So that could mean two things.

For example, here are the first 5 ingredients in Euks Premium Performance:

Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Meal, Brewers Rice, Fish Meal.

So it could be that the ingredients are added in the following weights:

Chicken - 100g

Chicken By-Product Meal - 95g

Corn Meal - 90g

Brewers Rice - 85g

Fish Meal 80g.....

So whilst Chicken is technically the highest weight, out of the 450g total, chicken is only 100g worth, where as grain is 270g. So chicken really isn't the main ingredient as such.

Or, is it calculated that chicken is the main ingredient, in that if the mix weighs 500g, Chicken makes up over 250g of that??

Does anyone know for sure how it works? Google isn't helping but but I have a feeling it's the first example...

I also think it's the first example, each listed ingredient is rated individually, not by 'type' of food. Highest percentage based on the detailed list comes first even if it's only a small percentage , as long as the other ingredients individually are smaller still.

It's the reason I think that you'll often see different grain inputs split to a fine level of detail, so each comes down the list and meat gets pushed up it.

But add all the grains together and the picture is quite different.

I tried to make this point in my previous post with rice as an example. Eg I'll see white rice, brown rice, brewers rice, rice bran, all listed but add them together and the percentage of 'rice' is quite a bit higher than it looks at first glance when they are split like that. (I'm not anti-grain, but I don't like it as a high percentage of the diet. And I'm not talking about the product in the op, just generally.)

Edited May 30, 2010 by Diva

[stormie]

it makes you realise then, for the brands that just have a meat as their first ingredient, how little meat there actually after the cooking process.

[blacklabrador]

Is it really grains that are affecting our dogs though?

I don't believe it is.

I feed my cat and all my dogs a combination, including some kibble, and I find it suits them perfectly. Personally, I feel we will see far more health problems in the future, from a lack of proper nutrition, which will be directly attributable to the raw/barf push.

I don't believe so. Where in a dog's natural state have they ever consumed grains and cooked meat? They aren't designed for it and they've only been fed these in large amounts over such a short time that there hasn't been time for "evolution". The health problems for dogs have increased many times since kibble was introduced. In my opinion, to suggest that dogs will have more health problems eating what they evolved to eat than the dried, cooked meat, preservative filled manufactured food just doesn't make sense. It's akin to saying that our children would be healthier eating Cheesy Mac, 2 minute noodles and sausages for every meal (well they keep growing and they have "energy" don't they??) than they would be eating salads, lean meats and wholegrains.

I don't care what people feed their dogs - whatever you reckon works. But I will challenge opinions such as these.

Edited May 31, 2010 by blacklabrador

[sas]

I came across this on the Great Dane LAdy website.....what do you think?

Devil's Advocate:

This article is focused on grain free diets as they relate to canine nutrition (dogs). This information does NOT apply to cats (felines) who are "obligate" carnivores of desert origin, and do best when fed raw or grain free diets.

Things to Ponder About Grain Free Diets

I get many emails asking my opinion of the new grain-free diets on the market. These are new foods and actually a spin-off of the BARF- biologically appropriate raw foods movement.

The growing holistic pet food industry has much competition these days, so they are looking for ways to reinvent the wheel and here you have it, the new grain free diets!

After all, if the public wants grain free diets, certainly they know what is best for their pets - right? Wrong. Just because the public wants it, is not a good enough reason to manufacture it. Just because it is a grain free diet, does not mean it is appropriate for your dog's situation.

Thanks to knee-jerk reactions and the propagation of nutritional myths on the internet, grains in petfoods have a bad reputation. Grains are carbohydrates and carbohydrates are not necessarily bad. Just because it is a grain free diet does not mean there are no carbohydrates in the grain free food. Instead they substitute potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams and tapioca, as other carb sources yet tapioca is a questionable ingredient for pets. More feed trials are needed on these foods.

So when people think they are using a grain-free diet, it still has carbohydrates in it and in many cases potato carbohydrates are worse for allergies, systemic yeast infections, diabetic and cancer diets - worse than quality whole ground grains used in the proper proportion.

My point here is this, like most things in life, this grainless diet topic is not a black/white issue. There are many things we need to consider before using a grain free diet for our pet's current health situation. Now the good thing about the grain free diets is that they are generally made by very good holistic companies like Nutura's EVO, Wellness-Core. Wysong's Archetype, Dr Harvey's Veg-To-Bowl among others.

Most grain free diets have not been around long enough to see how they will do in 3-4 generations. And feed trials, if actually done, are very limited. That is, other than Dr. Wysong's diets because he is a pioneer in the field of nutrition and his products have longevity and feed trial research done on them. He is one of my heroes and I appreciate all he has done to educating us about pet and human nutrition. (wysong.net).

I do not recommend grain free diets for weaning or growth in any breed and especially for large and giant breeds. Actually, I do not recommend a grain free diet be fed as the "total diet" to any healthy breed. I even have reservations about them used totally as a cancer diet due to the high calcium levels. They are really meant for very specific uses and often for short term use - each animal's situation would have to be considered before I could ever recommend a total grainless diet to my puppy buyers.

I think grainless food is fine to use as a 5%-10% component to the adult diet using a super premium or holsitic food as the 90-95% basis of your program. For puppies past 6 months of age I would only use a couple spoonful mixed with a high quality kibble.

Once the puppy is past the difficult growth stages (weaning - 6 months) then it is ok to increase the amount fed of a grainless diet. This is why I like the Honest Kitchen products so much, they are easier to regulate feeding. You can sprinkle a little on the puppies food and add a little water and stir - voila - you have the best of both worlds. A quality kibble with optimal nutrients, the raw component and fruits and veggies. What more could you ask in this busy world - ease and not compromising your pet's health.

It is IMPOSSIBLE regulate growth patterns on raw or grain fee diets in order to avoid developmental orthopedic diseases such as; HOD, Knuckling Over/Bowing (Carpel Flexural Deformity) OCD, and Pano.

[~Anne~]

Is it really grains that are affecting our dogs though?

I don't believe it is.

I feed my cat and all my dogs a combination, including some kibble, and I find it suits them perfectly. Personally, I feel we will see far more health problems in the future, from a lack of proper nutrition, which will be directly attributable to the raw/barf push.

I don't believe so. Where in a dog's natural state have they ever consumed grains and cooked meat? They aren't designed for it and they've only been fed these in large amounts over such a short time that there hasn't been time for "evolution". The health problems for dogs have increased many times since kibble was introduced. In my opinion, to suggest that dogs will have more health problems eating what they evolved to eat than the dried, cooked meat, preservative filled manufactured food just doesn't make sense. It's akin to saying that our children would be healthier eating Cheesy Mac, 2 minute noodles and sausages for every meal (well they keep growing and they have "energy" don't they??) than they would be eating salads, lean meats and wholegrains.

I don't care what people feed their dogs - whatever you reckon works. But I will challenge opinions such as these.

BL - you have misconstrued the intent of my statements.

I am not an advocate of feeding dogs anything in particular, least of all a diet made up of 100% commercial food. I was referring to the high number of people now feeding raw/barf who have little or no knowledge of a canine's nutritional needs. This is what will cause health issues.

I acknowledge that I have little expert knowledge of canine nutritional needs, even though I have researched it, and my belief is that people mistakenly now think they are experts on canine diets because they read on the net that 'this' was good for dogs and that 'this' was bad for dogs. Some of the information I read is alarming and dangerous. Different dogs have different needs. Raw advocates tend to lump all dogs/breeds in one basket.

Therein the danger lies.

Personally, I feed primarily a balanced raw diet. I also feed some kibble. I am not a fan of preservatives in human or canine diets. I base my dog's diets on the same philosophy as I base my own and my families, which centres around natural foods.

Edited - I don;t beleive that grains are the root of all evil or that grains or commercial diets are the cause of the ills of our dogs either.

I came across this on the Great Dane LAdy website.....what do you think?

Devil's Advocate:

This article is focused on grain free diets as they relate to canine nutrition (dogs). This information does NOT apply to cats (felines) who are "obligate" carnivores of desert origin, and do best when fed raw or grain free diets.

Things to Ponder About Grain Free Diets

I get many emails asking my opinion of the new grain-free diets on the market. These are new foods and actually a spin-off of the BARF- biologically appropriate raw foods movement.

The growing holistic pet food industry has much competition these days, so they are looking for ways to reinvent the wheel and here you have it, the new grain free diets!

After all, if the public wants grain free diets, certainly they know what is best for their pets - right? Wrong. Just because the public wants it, is not a good enough reason to manufacture it. Just because it is a grain free diet, does not mean it is appropriate for your dog's situation.

Thanks to knee-jerk reactions and the propagation of nutritional myths on the internet, grains in petfoods have a bad reputation. Grains are carbohydrates and carbohydrates are not necessarily bad. Just because it is a grain free diet does not mean there are no carbohydrates in the grain free food. Instead they substitute potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams and tapioca, as other carb sources yet tapioca is a questionable ingredient for pets. More feed trials are needed on these foods.

So when people think they are using a grain-free diet, it still has carbohydrates in it and in many cases potato carbohydrates are worse for allergies, systemic yeast infections, diabetic and cancer diets - worse than quality whole ground grains used in the proper proportion.

My point here is this, like most things in life, this grainless diet topic is not a black/white issue. There are many things we need to consider before using a grain free diet for our pet's current health situation. Now the good thing about the grain free diets is that they are generally made by very good holistic companies like Nutura's EVO, Wellness-Core. Wysong's Archetype, Dr Harvey's Veg-To-Bowl among others.

Most grain free diets have not been around long enough to see how they will do in 3-4 generations. And feed trials, if actually done, are very limited. That is, other than Dr. Wysong's diets because he is a pioneer in the field of nutrition and his products have longevity and feed trial research done on them. He is one of my heroes and I appreciate all he has done to educating us about pet and human nutrition. (wysong.net).

I do not recommend grain free diets for weaning or growth in any breed and especially for large and giant breeds. Actually, I do not recommend a grain free diet be fed as the "total diet" to any healthy breed. I even have reservations about them used totally as a cancer diet due to the high calcium levels. They are really meant for very specific uses and often for short term use - each animal's situation would have to be considered before I could ever recommend a total grainless diet to my puppy buyers.

I think grainless food is fine to use as a 5%-10% component to the adult diet using a super premium or holsitic food as the 90-95% basis of your program. For puppies past 6 months of age I would only use a couple spoonful mixed with a high quality kibble.

Once the puppy is past the difficult growth stages (weaning - 6 months) then it is ok to increase the amount fed of a grainless diet. This is why I like the Honest Kitchen products so much, they are easier to regulate feeding. You can sprinkle a little on the puppies food and add a little water and stir - voila - you have the best of both worlds. A quality kibble with optimal nutrients, the raw component and fruits and veggies. What more could you ask in this busy world - ease and not compromising your pet's health.

It is IMPOSSIBLE regulate growth patterns on raw or grain fee diets in order to avoid developmental orthopedic diseases such as; HOD, Knuckling Over/Bowing (Carpel Flexural Deformity) OCD, and Pano.

I agree with this person's thinking.

Edited June 1, 2010 by ~Anne~

[blacklabrador]

Grain free diet does not automatically = BARF. Any good diet is balanced. Fortunately, most people with a good level of common sense can work out what is a balanced raw diet for their dogs.

Interesting article but grain free kibble and her opinion on it has got nothing to do with a properly balanced raw food diet. In the same way that you can't apply the majority of dog nutritional logic to such an extreme breed, you cannot apply the logic used with such an extreme breed to the rest of the dog population. Perhaps Dane breeders have painted themselves into a corner by deliberately breeding a dog so big and fast growing that it can no longer be raised on the diet which nature intended for it. Just playing "devils advocate" as I really have no idea.

[tyra20007]

Regarding feeding grain & BARF Vs Raw - this is something I obviously feel strongly about

I am a strict BARF feeder and believe that a dog needs to have balance when being fed raw.

I think that a percentage of vegetables and grain is essential. If you are working on the prey predication then it would mimic the dog eating the stomach contents of small animals such as rabbits whom eat grasses and grains, some people argue that a dog discards the stomach but there are arguments for and against everything when it comes to feeding raw. I make a mix of beef mince, minced chicken frames, selective minced offal with a soaked (fermented) mix of the Vets All Natural which adds some whole grain to the diet - this does not get totally digested, instead it stimulates and cleans the intestines and stimulates anal glands, feeding only protein can clag up on the walls and possibly cause problems later in life. I of course feed a lot of raw meaty bones and all my bones and meat are human grade as pet mince can be very much inferior IMO

Info on Vets All Natural: http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/PDFS/CMIX.pdf

My dogs also get a live yogurt a couple of times a week and an egg on other days 2 a week each - I have 2 Dobermann so feed these according to weight of dog obviously. Mine get raw grated vegetables in the mix and plenty of fruit whenever it is available apple, melons, berries even oranges (sadly I cannot eat any fruit without 2 pools of drool appearing on my lap as my 2 both adore all fruit & it has never done them any harm) in the wild a dog would happily eat berries from a bush as fresh prey is not a daily occurrence, also dogs will eat grass for many reasons to help digestion and for their gut as well as eating dirt to search for minerals to supplement - animals do eat holistically and instinct tells them what they need.

I also add the following supplements to my dogs diets and they do really well on this:

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=74 This is for misc greens.

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=76 A great Omega 3 Blend Oil

http://www.petpepup.com.au/ingredients/ This is a probiotic good to keeping the gut in balance to aid digestion.

Information of the BARF diet

http://www.barfworld.com/index.shtml

I am more than happy to give out any information and answer any questions as I fully support people feeding raw (feel free to PM me)- although I personally do not agree with the Prey model when they do not believe in veges/grains/fruits.. but raw is better than processed any day in my opinion.. (some people around here consider me to be a BARF Nazi LOL - Happy to wear that badge as my dogs are the proof that what I do is working very well thank you very much & the people I have helped to convert from processed to BARF would also attest to this - so Whatever LOL )

[JulesP]

tyra20007 I have been feeding BARF for over 15 years. I however respect other people's choices.

You would be better off juicing the veggies btw. It breaks them down better.

I also don't consider VAN to be part of a BARF diet.

Just because people are feeding kibble does not mean that they don't know all the ins and out of BARF or the prey diet.

[Shmurps]

Has anyone tried k9 Natural?

[blacklabrador]

I have a strong suspicion that this thread was started by somebody who is advertising.

Didn't quite work out how you wanted huh Viddles!!

[Chocolate]

Has anyone tried k9 Natural?

My dogs have tried it and loved it.

[sas]

Grain free diet does not automatically = BARF. Any good diet is balanced. Fortunately, most people with a good level of common sense can work out what is a balanced raw diet for their dogs.

Interesting article but grain free kibble and her opinion on it has got nothing to do with a properly balanced raw food diet. In the same way that you can't apply the majority of dog nutritional logic to such an extreme breed, you cannot apply the logic used with such an extreme breed to the rest of the dog population. Perhaps Dane breeders have painted themselves into a corner by deliberately breeding a dog so big and fast growing that it can no longer be raised on the diet which nature intended for it. Just playing "devils advocate" as I really have no idea.

Yeah you don't have an idea

Domestication has done many things to many breeds, let's not get into the flat faced breeds and any other breed that wouldn't be able to survive by itself in the wild . Many Dane owners bring up their Danes on Raw, it's just not advisable unless you actually know what you're doing, mind you people who don't know what they're doing do it too LOL

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

I put the article out there for opinion, I don't neccessarily back it, although I feel it brings up some interesting points.

[Erny]

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

What has evolution done to the digestion process of dogs now, compared to dogs then?

Edited June 2, 2010 by Erny

[blacklabrador]

Grain free diet does not automatically = BARF. Any good diet is balanced. Fortunately, most people with a good level of common sense can work out what is a balanced raw diet for their dogs.

Interesting article but grain free kibble and her opinion on it has got nothing to do with a properly balanced raw food diet. In the same way that you can't apply the majority of dog nutritional logic to such an extreme breed, you cannot apply the logic used with such an extreme breed to the rest of the dog population. Perhaps Dane breeders have painted themselves into a corner by deliberately breeding a dog so big and fast growing that it can no longer be raised on the diet which nature intended for it. Just playing "devils advocate" as I really have no idea.

Yeah you don't have an idea

Domestication has done many things to many breeds, let's not get into the flat faced breeds and any other breed that wouldn't be able to survive by itself in the wild . Many Dane owners bring up their Danes on Raw, it's just not advisable unless you actually know what you're doing, mind you people who don't know what they're doing do it too LOL

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

I put the article out there for opinion, I don't neccessarily back it, although I feel it brings up some interesting points.

Yes, Sas - please describe how evolution has affected dogs digestion. Domestication has not = eating a grain based diet for very long. I didn't say that Dane breeders COULDN'T raise pups on raw but I was just challenging that article - if it's true and she seems to think it is, that it's a man-made problem.

Changing the physical shape of a breed does not change its digestive process - evolution takes a hell of a lot longer than that! However it may change a dogs digestive requirements. Domestication is NOT evolution. The two terms are not interchangable.

[~Anne~]

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

What has evolution done to the digestion process of dogs now, compared to dogs then?

I don't know the definitive answer, but evolution alters many things, not just the physical appearance. Dietary requirements of canines now I imagine would be different to what they were at the dawn of time. Many dogs nolonger require stamina and strength and many more breeds have been introduced along these lines as well.

I see it similar to the human appendix. I have heard (although I haven't researched it) that the appendix is slowly becoming obsolete in the human body. This is, I assume, because the human is evolving too.

I could be very wrong in my line of thought though.

[Erny]

I don't know the definitive answer, but evolution alters many things, not just the physical appearance.

The things that I have read and heard have all indicated that we have changed much the physical appearance of our our dogs, but not the digestive system. That's why I'm interested to know where Sas has derived her information that tells her what "evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then". I'd like to look at that but I haven't found anything or much to support that.

So not a challenge, Sas, but when you said "you only have to look" I presume from that you know of sources (links?) from studies that demonstrate this and I'd be really interested to read them.

[blacklabrador]

Now nature may very well have intended raw for our wild friends, however our dogs have been domesticated for a very long time and you only have to look at what evolution has done to the digestion process of dogs now compared to dogs then.

What has evolution done to the digestion process of dogs now, compared to dogs then?

I don't know the definitive answer, but evolution alters many things, not just the physical appearance. Dietary requirements of canines now I imagine would be different to what they were at the dawn of time. Many dogs nolonger require stamina and strength and many more breeds have been introduced along these lines as well.

I see it similar to the human appendix. I have heard (although I haven't researched it) that the appendix is slowly becoming obsolete in the human body. This is, I assume, because the human is evolving too.

I could be very wrong in my line of thought though.

You can alter phyiscal appearance in one generation. You CANNOT alter anything on an internal functional level over even a few generations. Not on a noticable level anyway - it takes a lot longer and it a lot slower than that.

The appendix theory actually relates to the question about whether it used to be a second stomach. This would have been utilised back before man ate meat and was eating only foliage and possibly grains and actually REQUIRED more than one stomach for that digestion like other Ruminants do. So how long ago was that? It wasn't 50 years, it was probably tens of thousands, yet the organ still exists in a non functioning form. Does that give you some idea of how long evolution takes? This theory is only theory and there are other schools of thought that say that the appendix exists for a whole other set of reasons.

To propose that dogs digestive systems have been able to evolve to be able to utilise all this new food, when they've evolved to eat a diet of mostly raw meat for their whole existance through time, is one of the most misinformed theories that I've ever come across. The fact that dogs now look like very specific breeds does not alter their gut function because evolution just doesn't work that quickly.