Grain Free Dog Food In Australia

[viddles]

hi all, new on the forum long time reader first time poster,justing reading all the topics on dog kibbles and thought i would let you all know about a grain free dog kibble in which i testing on my greyhounds at the moment,we have found it to be fantastic,its due in australia on the 12th june,this is not an advertisment for the company but i just thought this might be good information for all our dogs with skin complaints.The web site for this is www.canidae.com.au,and speak to george as he was ever so helpful to us.

[PSA]

We posted details of this food earlier today here:

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=197044

The Grain Free ALS food has been pretty much totally cleaned out by the Greyhound community

Skin complaints, UTI's, Joint issues etc etc are ailments this food is meant to be very helpful with, plus loaded with High quality, All natural Holistic ingredients

If I was a dog I would say yum yum....

[tyra2007]

Is this product made in Australia (website doesn't mention that anywhere) if not, what about the irradiation of the product on entry?

I am a BARF feeder and could never imagine feeding my dog a processed dry food, even one that describes itself as being "holistic"

Quote from PSA-

Skin complaints, UTI's, Joint issues etc etc are ailments this food is meant to be very helpful with, plus loaded with High quality, All natural Holistic ingredients

-end quote

I have had sucess in helping all the above from simply feeding a well balanced BARF diet, at least I know what is in my BARF diet

IMO a well planned BARF diet is easier than feeding processed pet poison.

[PSA]

It is not irradiated...

Directly from the manufacturer

• All Natural, High Quality, Holistic Pet Food

• Contains No Corn, Wheat, Soy, Rice, Grain Fractions, Glutens, Fillers or by-products

• Contains only high quality grains, vegetables and fruits sourced from human grade producers

• Contain Only Meat Meal (NO Animal By-product)

• Naturally Preserved with vitamin E

• Is not Irradiated

• Produced in USDA, FDA, and AAFCO approved human grade facilities

[Mas1981]

I fed kibble for years until I got my lab and he has allergies, I find that on raw food he is a bit better and I feel more comfortable in knowing what is in the food he is getting. If you look and humans fresh fruit and veg are best for us as well as meat, you dont see humans eating kibble which is why i have stopped giving it to my dog.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Mas1981

[QWERTYASDFGH]

Hey all,

I was looking on the canidae website and came across this.

Is this true? I have always though that just plain 'meat' (e.g. chicken, lamb, beef etc.) on the packaging was preferable to 'meat meal' (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal, beef meal etc.) Is what they say about 'meat meal' having higher levels of meat protein than 'meat' true?

Thanks,

Josh

Edited May 29, 2010 by lionelmesssi

[PSA]

Hey all,

I was looking on the canidae website and came across this.

Is this true? I have always though that just plain 'meat' (e.g. chicken, lamb, beef etc.) on the packaging was preferable to 'meat meal' (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal, beef meal etc.) Is what they say about 'meat meal' having higher levels of meat protein than 'meat' true?

Thanks,

Josh

It is 100% true, and part of the reason I would not argue the point to those that 'think' fresh meat is better. What they are really feeding there pet is mostly moisture, a large part of that being H20.

I have spent years dealing with aquaculture foods and the very best ingredient you can use for really adding protein is fish meal, it is a scientifically proven fact.

The commercial foods used for growing aqua-cultured Salmon and Trout, have extremely high levels of protein, this can only be provided by using fish and crustacea meal. The same is on offer for aquatic hobbyists who want high quality foods, although other ingredients such as the skin of shrimp and some fish are added to increase Omega fats and protein levels.

To put it in simple terms, you are dealing with a concentrate.

I could bore you with pages of data, but google will help you make your own mind up.

There is a place for Kibble, as there is for fresh foods, it really comes down to personal preference and what your pet likes or is happy with.

Personally I think a combination of kibble and fresh foods is the best option for feeding of my own pets, but as per above, personal preference is the key to this

Edited May 29, 2010 by PSA

[cavNrott]

hi all, new on the forum long time reader first time poster,justing reading all the topics on dog kibbles and thought i would let you all know about a grain free dog kibble in which i testing on my greyhounds at the moment,we have found it to be fantastic,its due in australia on the 12th june,this is not an advertisment for the company but i just thought this might be good information for all our dogs with skin complaints.The web site for this is www.canidae.com.au,and speak to george as he was ever so helpful to us.

Artemis Maximal is also a grain free food and it's been available in Australia for quite some time now.

It does have a very high protein content but then so does the Canidae fish variety.

[tyra2007]

Hey all,

I was looking on the canidae website and came across this.

Is this true? I have always though that just plain 'meat' (e.g. chicken, lamb, beef etc.) on the packaging was preferable to 'meat meal' (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal, beef meal etc.) Is what they say about 'meat meal' having higher levels of meat protein than 'meat' true?

Thanks,

Josh

It is 100% true, and part of the reason I would not argue the point to those that 'think' fresh meat is better. What they are really feeding there pet is mostly moisture, a large part of that being H20.

I have spent years dealing with aquaculture foods and the very best ingredient you can use for really adding protein is fish meal, it is a scientifically proven fact.

The commercial foods used for growing aqua-cultured Salmon and Trout, have extremely high levels of protein, this can only be provided by using fish and crustacea meal. The same is on offer for aquatic hobbyists who want high quality foods, although other ingredients such as the skin of shrimp and some fish are added to increase Omega fats and protein levels.

To put it in simple terms, you are dealing with a concentrate.

I could bore you with pages of data, but google will help you make your own mind up.

There is a place for Kibble, as there is for fresh foods, it really comes down to personal preference and what your pet likes or is happy with.

Personally I think a combination of kibble and fresh foods is the best option for feeding of my own pets, but as per above, personal preference is the key to this

I don't "think" that raw has more protein that processed I KNOW it is! What I am actually feeding my dogs is 100% human quality meat

sold to me by a butcher! are you really saying that as a human all I am actually eating when I buy and eat a steak is just water?

Do you really think that people are stupid enough to believe your rubbish attempt at brainwashing to feed processed pet poison?

Thanks very much PSA for the usual patronising "I sell processed Pet Poison for Profit - therefore it must be good Guff!"

Meat Meal is rubbish food - you may as well feed your dog cardboard!

It would be very interesting to hear your reply to the following points:- (from various websites)

If you Google "meat meal" there is nothing good to be said about it at all!

From website #1 -

Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called “meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as “beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.”

What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours. Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used (270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients.

Website #2

If a pet food lists "meat by-products" on the label, remember that this is the material that usually comes from the slaughterhouse industry or dead stock removal operations, classified as condemned or contaminated, unfit for human consumption. Meat meal, meat and bone meal, digests, and tankage (specifically animal tissue including bones and exclusive of hair, hoofs, horns, and contents of digestive tract) are composed of rendered material. The label need not state what the composition of this material is, as each batch rendered would consist of a different material. These are the sources of protein that we are feeding our companion animals.

So how is any of this "better" to feed a dog?? Really interested to see what you have to say PSA - have you ever actually researched these products?

As for not being irradiated - ALL imported dog foods that come through Australia's Quarantine MUST be irradiated - there is no way it can be exempted!

[tyra2007]

And then there is the poultry side of meat meal!

From http://www.homevet.com/petcare/foodbook.html

Quote-

What about other sources of protein that can be used in pet food? Poultry-by-product meal consists of ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcasses of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practice.

Poultry-hatchery by-products are a mixture of egg shells, infertile and unhatched eggs and culled chicks that have been cooked, dried and ground, with or without removal of part of the fat.

Poultry by-products include non rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, and viscera, free of fecal content and foreign matter except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice. These are all definitions as listed in the AAFCO "Ingredient Definitions."

Hydrolyzed poultry feather is another source of protein - not digestible protein, but protein nonetheless. This product results from the treatment under pressure of clean, intact feathers from slaughtered poultry free of additives, and/or accelerators.

-Unquote

MMMMmmmm yummy & that HAS to be better than buying lovely fresh human grade chicken frames and feeding it to my dogs

What was I thinking! Tomorrow instead of a yummy Sunday Roast for myself and my family

- I think I might go get some ground up whole baby chicks, feathers and all, surely the feathers add flavour & nutrition

[Diva]

Is this true? I have always though that just plain 'meat' (e.g. chicken, lamb, beef etc.) on the packaging was preferable to 'meat meal' (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal, beef meal etc.) Is what they say about 'meat meal' having higher levels of meat protein than 'meat' true?

Fresh meat is high in moisture. As a mostly raw feeder that isn't a downside for me, it's good for the dogs. It is also the reason why some people's concern that fresh meat is too high in protein is incorrect.

But it does mean that when a kibble lists a meat source, say chicken, as a first ingredient then lists several grains, you are in reality mostly buying grain. Because at dry weight the meat would then be well down the list. So in that sense a meat meal, say 'chicken meal' as first ingredient means you are getting more meat in the kibble. The quality of the meat meal is something else again, and you'd always want the species of meat animal listed, not just generic 'meat meal'.

Of course you also have to watch for the splitting up of grains - for example listing white rice, brown rice and rice bran each separately lowers them down the ingedient list, and makes meat seem like a more significant ingredient then it may well be. That seems to happen a lot.

Personally, even though I mostly feed raw, I don't get evangalical about dog food any more than I do about people's own diets. I just do my research and feed what works best for me and mine.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Diva

[t-time]

The title of the thread is about "grain-free" food and yet when you have posted the ingredients PSA - this product has grain??

What was I thinking! Tomorrow instead of a yummy Sunday Roast for myself and my family

- I think I might go get some ground up whole baby chicks, feathers and all, surely the feathers add flavour & nutrition laugh.gif

I know my DOGS would much rather eat the latter!! Although they are partial to the odd roast....

[PSA]

The title of the thread is about "grain-free" food and yet when you have posted the ingredients PSA - this product has grain??

What was I thinking! Tomorrow instead of a yummy Sunday Roast for myself and my family

- I think I might go get some ground up whole baby chicks, feathers and all, surely the feathers add flavour & nutrition laugh.gif

I know my DOGS would much rather eat the latter!! Although they are partial to the odd roast....

Canidae, along with Eagle Pack and several others have grain free variaties, which are advertised as such, plus they have some which are not advertised as grain free.

In regards to splitting etc, some manufacturers do this, as with using parts of the animal that are not meat.

To obtain FDA, USDA, AAFCO & AQIS approvals, accreditations and permits Canidae use the ingredients that they state publically, No Animal by products

It is amusing to read such blind one sided responses, bordering on evangelical as stated previously

If kibble foods were rubbish why do so many people use them? are they all wrong?

The original question had to do with a type of food, a breed of dog and an ailment, something that the food in question is very good in dealing with. Very high in protein without all the nasty additives and preservatives, that is what was responded to, not an emotional tirade of fresh meat is the holy grail.

Meat or Meal - which shall it be?

It’s hard to resist a pet food listing fresh meat as a primary ingredient. Meal just doesn’t seem to have the same attraction, does it?

But it is important to understand a distinct difference between these ingredients:

• Fresh Meat contains a large percentage of water

• Meal is simply Meat with the moisture removed.

As we learned in the discussion about splitting ingredients, since Fresh Meat contains water weight, it will often show up as the first ingredient in a food. Remember, ingredients must be listed in order of weight.

"Specific” Protein Sources

Let’s compare Fresh Chicken (Meat) and Chicken Meal. The same would apply to Fresh Lamb/ Lamb Meal or fresh Turkey/ Turkey Meal et al. We’ll leave the generic sources behind.

Fresh Chicken is a great ingredient. Even though is contains a lot of water, it is an excellent nutritive source. The problem comes if there is no other meat protein source in addition to a first listing of Fresh Chicken.

Chicken Meal is simply Fresh Chicken with the moisture removed.

The equivalent weight of Chicken Meal is more nutrient dense than Fresh Chicken.

Make sense?

If a 6 oz Chicken Breast is 30% water by weight, that translates into 4.2 oz. of Chicken Meal (6 oz. minus 1.8 oz. of water weight).

So don’t be mislead by seeing Fresh Chicken at the top of an ingredient list. Look a little further, remember what you learned about splitting, and see what’s really in that bag.

You may be surprised to find that your food consists primarily of grains and by-products, rather than that fresh meat that appears as ingredient #1.

If you want high protein, then meat meal is the best option

Pet Poison - You have to be kidding

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

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Edited May 29, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

most people use dry kibble because it is easy and they may not know of any alternatives.

you cannot use the arguement that because so many use it it must be good becasue this is an illogical argument.

some dogs do really badly on kibble some dont. processed dog food is not good for all dogs.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[stormie]

Meat meal as a first ingredient is preferable to a food that lists meat first. The ingredients you see listed are not in 'dry matter' form, but prior to the cooking process. So chicken meat may be most used ingredient, eg, 100g chicken meat, 90g corn meal, 80g wheat gluten, etc etc, however chicken meat and other meat is about 70% water, so once the food is processed and cooked etc, the moisture is gone, so that 100g of chicken becomes only 30g chicken, where as the other grains which don't have as much moisture, stay roughly the same.

Meat Meal is the meat that's already had the moisture removed from it. So 100g of meat meal will stay as 100g of meat meal and if used as the main ingredient, will stay that way after the kibble has been made.

Kyra - many people feed poultry by product to their animals raw - it would mimic the diet of wild animal more so than just feeding human cuts of meat. Organs are important and things like chicken feet are a good source of glucosamine. I would love to be able to source whole products like that to feed to my dog.

Not everyone is able to feed their animals raw for various reasons - health being one of them, so to be offered a dry food that gets them as close as possible is a good thing, IMO. I think your comments to PSA are incredibly rude, accusing him of selling pet poison. Get down off your high horse and open your eyes to the world. Just because its on the internet, doesn't mean its true. People put all sorts of rubbish on the internet telling you whats so awful about commercial pet food - doesn't make it true

From the Canidae website -

The nutritionally dense fresh meats and meals we use originate from USDA inspected meats processed in a human grade facility. Our high quality grains, vegetables and fruits are from human grade producers.

and from the Dog Food Project website:

Contrary to what many people believe, meat sources in "meal" form (as long as they are from a specified type of animal, such as chicken meal, lamb meal, salmon meal etc.) are not inferior to whole, fresh meats. Meals consist of meat and skin, with or without the bones, but exclusive of feathers/hair, heads, feet, horns, entrails etc. and have the proper calcium/phosphorus ratio required for a balanced diet. They have had most of the moisture removed, but meats in their original, "wet" form still contain up to 75% water. Once the food reaches its final moisture content of about 9-12%, the meat will have shrunk to sometimes as little as 1/4 of the original amount, while the already dehydrated meal form remains the same and you get more concentrated protein per pound of finished product. This means that in the worst case you are left with only 4 ounces of actual meat content per pound of fresh meat included in a dry kibble, many of which contain less than one pound of meat per 2-3 pounds of grain to begin with. Preferably a food contains quality meat meal as well as some fresh meat.

all information from the internet, but contradictory. So which is right?

In terms of raw food being mostly moisture, yes it is, but it doesn't change the amount of protein that is in the meat. It changes as a percentage, yes, but overall the amount of protein stays the same.

For example, I have a big mac. I could drink 2 litres of water with my big mac and say that overall, I only consumed 5% fat. But the water is nothing. If I just ate the big mac on its own, I'd probably have consumed 30% fat. But the amount of fat, in grams, will not change.

So to feed 100g of protein, you might, for example, have to feed 500g of raw meat, but you might only have to feed say 150g of meat meal, because its so concentrated, to get the same amount. So by weight, meat meal would have more protein.

Edited May 29, 2010 by stormie

[PSA]

I don't "think" that raw has more protein that processed I KNOW it is! What I am actually feeding my dogs is 100% human quality meat

sold to me by a butcher! are you really saying that as a human all I am actually eating when I buy and eat a steak is just water?

Do you really think that people are stupid enough to believe your rubbish attempt at brainwashing to feed processed pet poison?

Thanks very much PSA for the usual patronising "I sell processed Pet Poison for Profit - therefore it must be good Guff!"

Meat Meal is rubbish food - you may as well feed your dog cardboard!

It would be very interesting to hear your reply to the following points:- (from various websites)

If you Google "meat meal" there is nothing good to be said about it at all!

From website #1 -

Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called “meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as “beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.”

What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours. Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used (270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients.

Website #2

If a pet food lists "meat by-products" on the label, remember that this is the material that usually comes from the slaughterhouse industry or dead stock removal operations, classified as condemned or contaminated, unfit for human consumption. Meat meal, meat and bone meal, digests, and tankage (specifically animal tissue including bones and exclusive of hair, hoofs, horns, and contents of digestive tract) are composed of rendered material. The label need not state what the composition of this material is, as each batch rendered would consist of a different material. These are the sources of protein that we are feeding our companion animals.

So how is any of this "better" to feed a dog?? Really interested to see what you have to say PSA - have you ever actually researched these products?

As for not being irradiated - ALL imported dog foods that come through Australia's Quarantine MUST be irradiated - there is no way it can be exempted!

Product that is to be gamma irradiated on arrival at 50 kGray (5Mrad). Please note that this treatment option is not available in all circumstances and will depend on the materials held at the establishment and the disease status of the country.

EXEMPTIONS:

New Zealand product where the animal by-products are derived from premises licensed pursuant to the Meat Act 1981 or approved by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry (MAF) and produced in accordance with New Zealand law.

USA product where the manufacturing facility/ies are approved by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), and registered as approved for export to Australia.

As per above, in regards to AQIS (who we deal with regularly for import permits for fish food, inspections etc) they do not require the food to be irradiated if the manufacturing process meeets the required guidelines and flow process for heat treatment during manufacture, plus all other quality standards including type of ingredient, USDA registration etc. (note: type of ingredient - human grade meats)

All CANIDAE® and FELIDAE® products are proudly made in the United States of America using the highest quality ingredients. All formulations are produced in USDA, FDA, and AAFCO approved facilities. The nutritionally dense fresh meats and meals we use originate from USDA inspected meats processed in a human grade facility

Yes I have checked and Canidae do meet the requirements of both the USDA and FDA.

USDA do not inspect meat by products, so your abbreviated quote from website 1 is not accurate

In regards to website 2, there is no reference to "meat by products" on any label so does not apply.

tyra2007, you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about something, but facts are facts, meat meal is the highest source of meat protein you can feed your animal. I have never said once that fresh/raw foods are bad. Consumers, businesses, etc have choice, butchers sell fresh meat, we sell dog food, I use dog and cat food, both fresh and kibble...

Did I ever say fresh food is poison or evil? NO?

It is mainly water after all...

Thanks very much PSA for the usual patronising "I sell processed Pet Poison for Profit - therefore it must be good Guff!"

Meat Meal is rubbish food - you may as well feed your dog cardboard

Oh you really need a reality check.

Others that are in business here would know, profit on items such as dog foods is horrendous, I would rather stick with Aquarium, Equine and Rural animal products.

We have sourced this purely on demand by customers, if people buy it great, however we arent holding a gun to anybodies head.

Poison, Cardboard - really...

One thing I object to tyra2007, is the personal nature of your attack, making reference to profits, not knowing anything on the topic, selling poison etc etc. Obviously you find it difficult to undertake a civil debate on something.

There are various opinions on things as there are facts as well, people can make there own mind up rather than being told they are feeding there pet poisoned cardboard...

Edited May 29, 2010 by PSA

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

agreed stormie. when i was using kibble i always looked for the products that had meal as they had a higher concentration of meat.

i think what people feed dogs can be very emotional, from all sides of the equation, but IMO whatever the dog does well on is the right food!!

[PSA]

agreed stormie. when i was using kibble i always looked for the products that had meal as they had a higher concentration of meat.

i think what people feed dogs can be very emotional, from all sides of the equation, but IMO whatever the dog does well on is the right food!!

Yay, agree 100% with this and will use this as my last entry in this thread as I am not here to inflame any mini riots in the name of dog food...

If your dog does well on something, stick with it

If you have the time and resources to prepare adequate meals using totally fresh ingredients, go for it

At the end of the day it is win/win for your furry friend