**urgent** Old Dog Needs A Home Asap

[sas]

Can you assist by behaviour asessing this dog Erny?

I can never bring myself to say "pts" as the better alternative without meeting a dog and seeing it for myself, either.

The initial problem is finding a carer willing to take this dog and I believe the owner was given false hope. if it is surrendered to a pound it is unlikely to make it out alive.

Edited May 27, 2010 by sas

[Cosmolo]

Before rehoming i think its a good idea to get proper assessments of health and temperament. If the vet was happy to put the dog under a GA- does this indicate his general health is good? I would have thought so. I have seen 15 year old dogs that are very 'old' and 15 year old dogs whose health and temperament suggest they are a whole lot younger. My parents currently have a 15 year old who behaves 'younger' than our 11 year old. She would definitely pass shelter assessments for health, despite her age. The aggression of course needs to be properly assessed before a decision is made too.

In saying that, generally speaking , i don't buy the argument that because there are plenty of younger dogs around, older dogs should not be rehomed. Some people want older dogs, some people need older dogs.

Regardless of age, if an owner makes the decision to rehome and the dog passes its assessments- i don't have issue with the rehoming. I guess they're the issues being raised though- did the owner make the decision, and would the dog pass a reasonable assessment.

[sas]

Regardless of age, if an owner makes the decision to rehome and the dog passes its assessments- i don't have issue with the rehoming. I guess they're the issues being raised though- did the owner make the decision, and would the dog pass a reasonable assessment.

Neither do I but I completely disagree with re-homing an aggressive dog and that's what my stance is.

[megan_]

I think I must be missing the point.

The women with the dog sounds like an idiot BUT

I wouldn't want to put my 15 year old dog under GA either. I wouldn't say "put him down" (as long as he wasn't in pain), but I know that, soon enough, his teeth would rot through and I would put him down. I would choose to do it sooner rather than later because dogs are stoic (at least mine are) and they can be in EXTREME pain before they even show it. It is my responsibility to ensure my dod never gets to that point. I wouldn't send him to a shelter to be put down by someone else, or to die under GA while they tried to fix his teeth.

I would be with him to his end-of-days, what is so wrong with that?

Erny - if an owner says a dog is aggressive, most (all?) ethical rescuers won't rehome even if the temp test goes well. Why? Because a temp test only tests a certain amount of circumsatances and they are opening themselves up to legal liability if the dog turn out to be aggressive and they had been told that it was that way.

Agree with pers - fobbing off un unhouse trained, potentially aggressive dog with rotting teeth to an elderly person wouldn't cut it for me.

ETA: I also agree with Cosmolo - dogs adapt a lot better than we give them credit for!

Edited May 27, 2010 by megan_

[persephone]

Some people want older dogs, some people need older dogs.

indeed Older dogs can often be the perfect choice !

But do 'some people' want an unhousetrained old dog .... or one who may be aggressive towards males? (this is IF the teeth problem can be sorted...poor little man.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with you sas. I'm just cautious to suggest pts without an assessment because what some people consider to be aggression, actually is not.

I have seen dogs labelled aggressive at surrender who- are young puppies mouthing, are responding to some kind of pain, have owners who lied- etc.

ETA persephone- thats why formal assessment is important- it determines these things far better than being given an age, a few sentences of information and going from there.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Erny]

Agree with pers - fobbing off un unhouse trained, potentially aggressive dog with rotting teeth to an elderly person wouldn't cut it for me.

"Fobbing off" isn't what I was suggesting nor even hinting at. If you read the OP, it seems from what she was able to see that day was not a dog who had toileting issues nor a dog that had issues with men. Further temp assessment needed (Cosmolo is set up for these, I think) definitely, but I like to think dogs stand a chance if there is one and if it could prove to be the best for the dog (ie a 'happy ever after' ending).

PS How're your doggies . Haven't seen them in ages.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Erny

[Greytmate]

Regardless of age, if an owner makes the decision to rehome and the dog passes its assessments- i don't have issue with the rehoming. I guess they're the issues being raised though- did the owner make the decision, and would the dog pass a reasonable assessment.

Neither do I but I completely disagree with re-homing an aggressive dog and that's what my stance is.

That is my stance too.

Erny - if an owner says a dog is aggressive, most (all?) ethical rescuers won't rehome even if the temp test goes well. Why? Because a temp test only tests a certain amount of circumsatances and they are opening themselves up to legal liability if the dog turn out to be aggressive and they had been told that it was that way.

You will always find somebody to agree to take on a little old dog, you will always find somebody to agree to deal with 'problems'.

But the bottom line is, if the dog you rehome causes harm, and you have been informed that it has behaved aggressively in the past, (or didn't bother to find out history or assess the dog) you are legally liable. Even if you do inform the new owner of the aggression, that does not get you out of trouble.

If there were not so many non-aggressive and healthy dogs needing homes, it would be worth putting all our rescue resources into dogs needing rehabilitation, and get them professional help from qualified people. But while these other dogs are dying, is it ethical to put so much into the one dog?

There is no liability at all attached to leaving this dog where it is, and offering its owner assistance and education.

[megan_]

Agree with pers - fobbing off un unhouse trained, potentially aggressive dog with rotting teeth to an elderly person wouldn't cut it for me.

"Fobbing off" isn't what I was suggesting nor even hinting at. If you read the OP, it seems from what she was able to see that day was not a dog who had toileting issues nor a dog that had issues with men. Further temp assessment needed (Cosmolo is set up for these, I think) definitely, but I like to think dogs stand a chance if there is one and if it could prove to be the best for the dog (ie a 'happy ever after' ending).

PS How're your doggies . Haven't seen them in ages.

I used too strong a word . I take it back. I wasn't actually referring to your post though (that was for the comment above).

OT - My dogs are still as cute and naughty as ever. We even went for a walk along St Kilda pier on Sunday (loads of kids, riders, people etc) and Lucy was happliy trotting along. I need to call you about getting her re-assessed so that we can get that certificate!

[Loving my Oldies]

Agree with pers - fobbing off un unhouse trained, potentially aggressive dog with rotting teeth to an elderly person wouldn't cut it for me.

"Fobbing off" isn't what I was suggesting nor even hinting at. If you read the OP, it seems from what she was able to see that day was not a dog who had toileting issues nor a dog that had issues with men. Further temp assessment needed (Cosmolo is set up for these, I think) definitely, but I like to think dogs stand a chance if there is one and if it could prove to be the best for the dog (ie a 'happy ever after' ending).

I have seen several times in the past few days that people are not reading entire threads and leap in without bothering to get the full story.

As I said in my post, the poor little chap's biggest problem was his awful owner.

As for adopting old dogs, just read a few of dogmad's stories and a few of mine. We are both older dog people because that is where we are drawn.

And this attitude doesn't even bear commenting on, but I will in an effort to "educate" Megan. Very few rescuers would "fob off" any of their dogs, we love them too much and want only the best for them AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ADOPT THEM. By saying something like this, you discredit yourself more than anyone else.

Agree with pers - fobbing off un unhouse trained, potentially aggressive dog with rotting teeth to an elderly person wouldn't cut it for me.

[Greytmate]

"Fobbing off" isn't what I was suggesting nor even hinting at. If you read the OP, it seems from what she was able to see that day was not a dog who had toileting issues nor a dog that had issues with men. Further temp assessment needed (Cosmolo is set up for these, I think) definitely, but I like to think dogs stand a chance if there is one and if it could prove to be the best for the dog (ie a 'happy ever after' ending).

If a dog has been reported by its owner as aggressive, you have its history.

It would be a really bad idea (reckless) to dismiss that on the word of a fifteen year old that spent a few hours with the dog.

"Yes your honour, the owner said he bit people, but this teenage girl played with him for ages and didn't see him bite anyone. So we used her assessment instead, because we didn't want to put the poor little dog to sleep.."

Edited May 28, 2010 by Greytmate

[megan_]

I have seen several times in the past few days that people are not reading entire threads and leap in without bothering to get the full story.

As I said in my post, the poor little chap's biggest problem was his awful owner.

As for adopting old dogs, just read a few of dogmad's stories and a few of mine. We are both older dog people because that is where we are drawn.

And this attitude doesn't even bear commenting on, but I will in an effort to "educate" Megan. Very few rescuers would "fob off" any of their dogs, we love them too much and want only the best for them AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ADOPT THEM. By saying something like this, you discredit yourself more than anyone else.

MM,

First of all, my apologies, things came out all wrong. I often read your stories in rescue and enjoy them. I know that plenty of people want an elderly dog. I my syelf own one of the most "unperfect" dogs out there that many people would (and did) say "just PTS and get a puppy". Also, I wasn't suggesting that rescuers "fob off" the dogs. An ethical rescue would assess this dog. However, not every rescue is ethical and the OP was an open call for someone to take this dog on? (That is how I interpreted it).

My point was that this woman was made out to be some demon for wanting to PTS. I wouldn't want to give my elderly dog a GA. When his time came, I would PTS and be there for him.

My post said that I agree with Cosmolo that many elderly dogs adapt very well.

[Erny]

It would be a really bad idea (reckless) to dismiss that on the word of a fifteen year old that spent a few hours with the dog.

Splitting hairs with the rest of the debates in this thread, but do you know the OP is a "fifteen year old"? Or was that assumption?

Regards the "reported aggression" by the owner - I agree with Cosmolo. More needs to be found out in that respect. What the owner is describing as aggression might not be. Or it might have been somewhat heavily provoked. Or it might have been that she was purposely making things out to be worse than what they are.

More information, carefully sought, is needed.

My point is that like any other dog, this one deserves a chance, even if that's by saying "hold up a minute, can we look into this further?"

[Loving my Oldies]

Megan, your aplogies more than accepted .

We need to hear more about the adventures of Lucy.

[aussielover]

If he is not suffering, why is he in urgent need of a dental???

Rotting teeth would indicate some level of suffering to me.

The owners only option is to put him under GA- as many people have said, a very risky procedure on a 15yr old dog, or put him to sleep.

If he doesn't get the dental, he will clearly be suffering (unable to eat due to rotting teeth and in pain), so really, wouldn't it be the kindest thing to do to put him to sleep?

I'm not having a go at you, I think it is lovely that you want to help this dog and we would all like to help every doggie out there, but I think realistically in this situation, perhaps euthaniasia would be the best solution. The poor dog would alomost certainly never make it out of a shelter alive and I'm not quite sure why you would suggest that?

[Greytmate]

Splitting hairs with the rest of the debates in this thread, but do you know the OP is a "fifteen year old"? Or was that assumption?

Sorry, got confused by an earlier post that wasn't clear. Probably the dog that was fifteen, not the student. But swap "fifteen year old" for "TAFE student" and it makes no difference. You are still rehoming a dog with a history of aggression.

[dancinbcs]

Hey all posting here for better sight.

A little Chi X JRT (about Chi size) Boy named SAMPSON, came into TAFE yesterday for a vet check and vaccination. The Vet noticed his teeth were in really bad shape and he would need several extractions very soon and booked him in for the procedure on Tuesday.

The little guy came in for a bath today as well and when we asked the owner about the procedure and was she ok about the cost - approx $400

She stated i will just put him down... The whole class froze... She said well he is male aggressive and old so why bother nobody likes him anyway... He is suffereing so isnt it the vet's job to stop his pain and put him to sleep??

We replied with.. he isnt in any pain so he isnt suffereing - have you considered rehomeing or dropping him at a shelter? She said he isnt house trained so i wouldnt want to burden another family with him so i will just put him to sleep...

We talked her around and she will now consider rehomeing him and has given us her details and the vet clinic has agreed to let us know if she books him in to be done.

One point that seems to be missed here is that the vet has stated the dogs teeth are in really bad shape. If this is the case where did the students get the idea that the dog is not in pain. Obviously they have never had a toothache. The dog would most certainly be in pain from those teeth, otherwise there is no point in removing them from a dog that old. If the teeth are not causing any problem why not just let the dog live out it's days with them? Vets are often prone to offering expensive procedures in really old animals that would be better off pts.

The owner may seem hard but it is her dog and her decision to pts rather than put a very old dog that she has no real affection for through an expensive and potentially dangerous procedure. I think it is extremely unethical to to talk any owner of an old dog out of euthanasia and it is something that these students should be there to learn.

Surrending a problem dog should never happen. Owners need to take resposibility for their own dogs and make the tough decision to pts when the dog is really not suitable to rehome. The owner in this case was doing the responsible thing and has been guilted into changing her mind.

If the students are trainee vet nurses then they need to toughen up and learn that being sentimental and wanting to save every animal is only going to break their hearts. Making practical decisions about animal welfare involves a lot more than just being an "animal lover" and learning to deal with all sorts of owners, even those you don't like, is all part of the job.

Aussielover made the same point while I was typing this.

Edited May 28, 2010 by dancinbcs

[kirst_goldens]

I agree with Greytmate, re-home an older dog, especially with health problems can be difficult. I believe you are trying to do the right thing by saving this little guy but it might take some serious searching to find him a new home. This could be rather stressful for the dog, especially at 15 years old. Would the lady consider keeping him if his vet bills are paid?

We asked and she said no she doesnt want him because the family dont really like him anyway - we thought maybe the tafe could fundraise a bit and do the surgery cheap.

Another place to try is Rescued with Love. They deal with lots of oldies . I'd love to help, but I have recently taken on two oldies to save them from being killed in the pound.

I'm with you Kirst-Goldens. The little guy is probably fine and maybe his only problem was his dreadful owner.

but if i dont try at all i have already lost

A lot of people would find this hard to understand.

Please let us know how Sampson fares.

Signing off before I get a warning. :D :D

Thanks ill will have to look them up, will kepp u updated

Would it be so bad if he was kindly euth'd?

A dog aggressive, toy breed who wees and poos inside and in need of a dental when there are so many other dogs in need.

I don't feel it's professional or fair to try to talk clients out of euthanising their pet. I hope this poor old dog isn't going to languish in some pound now.

Wow, this is how I was feeling reading this.

I mean, hell yes, it is sad... but I personally would never suggest someone just dump their dog at a pound. I have a fearful dog that wouldn't pass a temp test anywhere, despite the work I do and continue to do with her. I cannot imagine having to have her pts prematurely at all ever but I'd rather that than let her suffer her last days in the pound.

Dont plan on dumping him, i want to find a permanent home or a foster home while we find him a permanent place to live

Would it be so bad if he was kindly euth'd?

A dog aggressive, toy breed who wees and poos inside and in need of a dental when there are so many other dogs in need.

I don't feel it's professional or fair to try to talk clients out of euthanising their pet. I hope this poor old dog isn't going to languish in some pound now.

I don't think it's professional either and for TAFE students to suggest that the owner surrender the dog or take it to a shelter is just as bad.

I am a teacher not a student, u know the saying about assuming... We simply ran her through her options and asked her would she consider these options if we could make it work.

Before rehoming i think its a good idea to get proper assessments of health and temperament. If the vet was happy to put the dog under a GA- does this indicate his general health is good? I would have thought so. I have seen 15 year old dogs that are very 'old' and 15 year old dogs whose health and temperament suggest they are a whole lot younger. My parents currently have a 15 year old who behaves 'younger' than our 11 year old. :D She would definitely pass shelter assessments for health, despite her age. The aggression of course needs to be properly assessed before a decision is made too.

In saying that, generally speaking , i don't buy the argument that because there are plenty of younger dogs around, older dogs should not be rehomed. Some people want older dogs, some people need older dogs.

Regardless of age, if an owner makes the decision to rehome and the dog passes its assessments- i don't have issue with the rehoming. I guess they're the issues being raised though- did the owner make the decision, and would the dog pass a reasonable assessment.

I plan to have him assessed if he has somewhere to go, i wouldnt just give him to someone and say ur problem now and have him attack them! LOL. The dog is in great health and the vet was happy to put him under - there are alwasy risks though as we are all aware but other then his teeth he is in great condition - maybe a little over weight lol The owner is waiting to hear what we can plan she is happy to be rid of the dog any way possible and at the least expense to herself so rehomeing for her is the best option.

[kirst_goldens]

I agree with you sas. I'm just cautious to suggest pts without an assessment because what some people consider to be aggression, actually is not.

I have seen dogs labelled aggressive at surrender who- are young puppies mouthing, are responding to some kind of pain, have owners who lied- etc.

ETA persephone- thats why formal assessment is important- it determines these things far better than being given an age, a few sentences of information and going from there.

I think he isnt most likely not as bad as she thinks in regards to his aggression, he is a really sweet dog and at worst might need a little training work but i think he would come around - im not a trainer or behaviour specialist this is just my opinion

It would be a really bad idea (reckless) to dismiss that on the word of a fifteen year old that spent a few hours with the dog.

Splitting hairs with the rest of the debates in this thread, but do you know the OP is a "fifteen year old"? Or was that assumption?

Regards the "reported aggression" by the owner - I agree with Cosmolo. More needs to be found out in that respect. What the owner is describing as aggression might not be. Or it might have been somewhat heavily provoked. Or it might have been that she was purposely making things out to be worse than what they are.

More information, carefully sought, is needed.

My point is that like any other dog, this one deserves a chance, even if that's by saying "hold up a minute, can we look into this further?"

As mentioned earlier - and i know Erny knows who i am!! i am not 15 yrs old i teach at this tafe... i am not a student!! LOL

One point that seems to be missed here is that the vet has stated the dogs teeth are in really bad shape. If this is the case where did the students get the idea that the dog is not in pain. Obviously they have never had a toothache. The dog would most certainly be in pain from those teeth, otherwise there is no point in removing them from a dog that old. If the teeth are not causing any problem why not just let the dog live out it's days with them? Vets are often prone to offering expensive procedures in really old animals that would be better off pts.

The owner may seem hard but it is her dog and her decision to pts rather than put a very old dog that she has no real affection for through an expensive and potentially dangerous procedure. I think it is extremely unethical to to talk any owner of an old dog out of euthanasia and it is something that these students should be there to learn.

Surrending a problem dog should never happen. Owners need to take resposibility for their own dogs and make the tough decision to pts when the dog is really not suitable to rehome. The owner in this case was doing the responsible thing and has been guilted into changing her mind.

If the students are trainee vet nurses then they need to toughen up and learn that being sentimental and wanting to save every animal is only going to break their hearts. Making practical decisions about animal welfare involves a lot more than just being an "animal lover" and learning to deal with all sorts of owners, even those you don't like, is all part of the job.

Aussielover made the same point while I was typing this.

His teeth are bad and look to be leading to problems but he is NOT in pain and that was the VETS opinion not the tafe students - we are taught to not give a diagnoses but to refer to the vet clinic. The dog eats baones and kibble without trouble so he may be in some pain but APPEARS to be ok, i thin his teeth could wait a few weeks but i wouldnt like to leave it longer then that for fear of infections in his mouth.

The owner is not thinking about her dog at all in this situation and i can say this till im blue in the face and i know we all have differeing opinions on what to do in this situation. So i will keep doing my thing and try for this little dog who really does deserve better.

We are not vet nurses and we really do know the difference between cute dogs and animal welfare pls give me SOME credit, She was not guilted into changing her mind... she thought rehomeing would cost her money so never considered it - we only informed her of her options and she told us she was happy for us to look into it for her, we even entioned she could look into some shelters who can give money or cheaper surgery and she could keep the dog where he is but as mentioned earlier she doesnt really want the dog anymore... IMHO saying we guilted her into it and all the other things mentioned when u werent there to even hear what we said is a little unfair dont you agree??

We understand that the little guy may still be PTS but hey we can try u never know there might be the perfect home out there waiting for him but there might not... im still goign to try though

I understand this is a tough issue that everyone will have different opinions about, really i just wanted to see if anyone had some ideas of how to help i didnt mean to cause a massive discussion on animal welfare LOL just wanted some help for the little guy, Thanks for all the input though to all i have some good ideas for the little man now

to all who have PMed and offered help thank you so much and i will keep you all updated on Sampsons progress

[sas]

I understand this is a tough issue that everyone will have different opinions about, really i just wanted to see if anyone had some ideas of how to help i didnt mean to cause a massive discussion on animal welfare LOL just wanted some help for the little guy, Thanks for all the input though to all i have some good ideas for the little man now

Of course it would have....

15 year old dog....aggression problems.....bad teeth which requires the dog to go under GA......not toilet trained.....suggested re-homing....

Perhaps someone in your class who didn't want the dog put down can take it on.