Increase In Allergens

[zayda_asher]

The Dermatology resident we have seen the last 2 times is the protegee of our regular Dermatologist.

That doesn't mean that they do everything exactly the same as the Derm they learned from or that they explain things in the same manner, sometimes seeing someone different can be very useful. One of the derms at the prac I go to was trained by the other and they are remarkably different people, use differing techniques on occasion and explain things in very different ways. Both are fabulous, but some people find they work better with one over the other due to personality, etc.

Yes the intradermal test was done to see if the if immunotherapy was working, not it was not because it was suspected she had developed other allergies, this is what the resident told me

That's really unusual... I've never heard of that in all the stuff I've read on immunotherapy... I'll ask my derm about it next time I write to her and see if we can get some more in put on this usage of IDAT.

No ,i haven't tried taking her off the immunotherapy, I do like this idea it does seem like it would give a better indication about the immunotherapy's effectiveness

I'd certainly talk with your derm about it... but it may give you an idea of what you are seeing. Did you keep a symptom diary so that you could track her symptoms / improvement with treatment?

RUSH treatment - would you mind explaining what you mean?

Raff posted the info sheet on this I think... Basically the RUSH treatment with immunotherapy means that you don't have to do the build period where you start on the lower doses and close together injections. The dog goes into the clinic as a day patient and they are put on an IV to have the initial "uptake" of the immunotherapy: you then go home with the final strength vial and begin the injections at (I think) the 3 weekly gap that you are on once you go up to the final strength vial. Saves all those early injections etc. and gets it into the system quicker. A lot of derms are finding it helps with compliance, as people aren't as confused about when to give what dose etc.

I personally haven't done it, as my dogs were started pre this being intro'ed, but I know several now who have done so.

The dosage of the vaccine was reduced from 100 units to 35 awhile ago because she was getting worse symptoms on the 100 units ( the doses had been built up to this)

So it sounds like you are still in the "up take" trial period where you are ascertaining what level and period of time works for your dog. It took us more than a year to get through this period with Zayda, we're now out to 6 weekly with her Alternaria ASIT. We did push it out to eight weeks at one stage, but had some complications and went back. I think we will soon trial her at 7 week intervals and see how we go. Its a bit hard to say if it is effective or not if you have not yet settled into a specific dose at a regular interval... Perhaps you need to wait until you have found what level and duration between injections works for her before you can make a call on its efficacy?

treatment at the moment is:

Daily Anti-histamines (Iramine)

Application of Cortisone cream/spray for flare ups

Bathing fortnightly with maleseb

Omega 3 oil added to meals

Taking as many measures as possible around the home with cleaning and washing to reduce dust mite population

You might try bathing in Episoothe and only using the malaseb when she flares. I have found (and both derms at my practice confirmed this to be their experience too) that the medicated shampoos are often very drying and give the skin a hard time when used so regularly. I bath weekly for both my guys atm, and that is with the episooth, which keeps the allergens off and their skin in very good condition. We've recently had a flare with my boy with Staph, and are now doing every 4th bath for him in Pyoben. This can help keep the bacterial load on the skin in control, whilst not causing other problems like drying the skin further by using the medicated shampoo so often. Conditioner can also help if you are seeing scurf, and helps form a protective layer on the skin.

There is also a lot coming out now showing that omega six in the diet is helping with skin barrier function: evening primrose, borage (starflower), safflower or sunflower oil can be used. Same dosage ratio as for omega 3.

Do you feed dry food to your dog? This is a major source of exposure for storage mites and you may consider swapping to home prepared if you have the time to do so (made massive difference for my guys).

Skin oil treatments are also now being used with some success. Our dermatologist is importing these: http://www.sogevalus.com/derm_spot.html However, many people just used Kerri oil after their bath.

If you find you are still getting a lot of itching, you may consider trialing different antihistamines. Some will suit some dogs better than others and you will also find that the dog can develop a tolerance with long term use of one particular type, so swapping can sometimes help if you see a flare.

What do you get skin infection wise? I've had great success using lamisil on yeasty feet / tail bases. Resichlor lotion can also be extremely useful for both yeast and staph. If you get staph I've had great success using Pau D'arco (herb) orally to help keep staph down.

Dermotic is great if you're having yeasty ears and you can also rub it into the flap if they're read / inflamed. Vinegar and water can also be used to maintain paws and as an ear wash to help keep them from getting reinfected... from memory the dilution is 1 part vinegar to 3 water. YOu can also make a rinse for the coat from Pau D'arco tea and rinse them with this in between or after baths.

Of course, as you say, keeping as many of the allergens as possible out of the immediate environment is really helpful (the bit I hate most - house work! ).

There are some studied showing the probiotics are helpful in general for allergy dogs. I also no longer vaccinate, as there was a study (Frick and Olsen I think it was, I can check that if you want) that showed regular vaccination will worse the symptoms of atopy. If you get GI issues then digestive enzymes and aloe vera caps can also be really helpful.

I'm sure there's more I do, but that's all that's come out for now!

There's some stuff coming out now that is looking at Tumeric and yucca for inflamation as well, I haven't researched this a lot yet, but that may be something you can follow up.

I assume you did an elimination diet?

thank you for taking the time to explain all this, I appreciate it

No problems

Edited May 29, 2010 by zayda_asher

[zayda_asher]

For those of you that have done the immunotherapy, what percent would you say your dog has had in reduction of symptoms?

Absolute life saver here!!! Zayda I have resigned to the fact that she will be a lifer with immunotherapy, but I'm still aiming to get her to the largest interval between injections that I can. We actually give her's orally as she started reacting to the injections (very bad swelling). In the time she was off it (we trialled this first before moving to oral), she fell apart and we had a return of symptoms that were like the "bad old days". Then she developed more allergies and we retested to do immunotherapy for them. Whilst we are on immuno for her I see:

* Almost no itching, unless exposed to a high load of her allergens, which means she's not ripping and chewing herself to shreds

* Virtually no yeast, unless she gets a food she shouldn't have

* Reduction in rhinitis, eye & ear problems

* No hive outbreaks (we have had one very small one and two almost ones since she has been on her new one and, again, I think these may actually have been food related)

Asher sensitised to his and we had to take him off it, however, it was still successful and I believe we've seen long term results. We have a much easier time controlling his staph infections since he's done immuno: they happen less and are easier to clear when they do. He doesn't chew at his feet as much either. Unfortunately we've had a bad patch with him in the last 6mnts or so and he's developed some adverse food reactions and I think he may also have developed some more atopy. However, because he had problems with the last lot of immuno we're holding off retesting him and seeing if we can bring him back into control by eliminating specific foods and other topical treatments etc. If not, then we will look at retesting and doing immuno, but starting with a much weaker solution and acclimatising him slowly.

I've absolutely saved a boatload of money by forking out for the immuno... Keeping Zayda particularly in condition without it was an exercise in $$$$$ and frustration.

Edited May 29, 2010 by zayda_asher

[Mas1981]

Thanks for sharing your experiences ZA, I am hoping the immunotherapy will work for Mason seeing as he is not that badly affected by allergies ( by this I mean he does not break the skin by itching or biting but he does get sores on his feet) He is also prone to yeast infections in his ears so I dont give him anything in his diet that has wheat/gluten or yeast. I am slowly changing him to more raw than kibble as I also believe that dry is not really beneficial to dogs with allergies.

[sas]

That's fine however it's how people are communicated with....given false hope that 70% of dogs will have success....the word success is the problem as to a Derm that may mean just a wee bit less itching, to an owner that may mean a cure.

I think this is a really good example about how a piece of information taken out of context can be easily misconstrued. I've worked with this particular Derm practice for ≈ 8 years and never once have been given false hope about a "cure". They are always very clear about treatments, how they work and what to expect from them. They have always stated that "success" with immunotherapy is a reduction of symptoms, and they quote the standard accepted rate in the research literature of ≈70% who see this success.

Forget about it LOL

You think I'm taking things out of context and somehow being insulting to your Derm which I wasn't, if you cared to see what I was saying instead of assuming you would have seen that.

Edited May 29, 2010 by sas

[zayda_asher]

That's fine however it's how people are communicated with....given false hope that 70% of dogs will have success....the word success is the problem as to a Derm that may mean just a wee bit less itching, to an owner that may mean a cure.

I think this is a really good example about how a piece of information taken out of context can be easily misconstrued. I've worked with this particular Derm practice for ≈ 8 years and never once have been given false hope about a "cure". They are always very clear about treatments, how they work and what to expect from them. They have always stated that "success" with immunotherapy is a reduction of symptoms, and they quote the standard accepted rate in the research literature of ≈70% who see this success.

Again, that's fine....I'm talking in general....a few people here seemed to think 70% was the going % and success to people could mean a fix.

That's all I'm pointing out is terminology and that information could be misleading with the defination of 'success'.

70% is the generally accepted level of dogs that will see improvement according to the research literature on the topic... there are studies that show both higher and lower, but this is the accepted mean average.

Yes, terminology can be subjective, but that is where it is important to define what is meant by any terms such as "success" and also make sure that you understand the context in which they are used.

I think its important to remember that the consumer also has an obligation to research and make informed decisions for themselves and not just blindly go into things... Yes, the Dr has an obligation to inform their client, and we as the client expect that as a right, but we also have the obligation to be informed for ourselves and not just blindly swallow what is fed to us... its a two way street.

[sas]

Forget about it. We're nnot on the same page so it doesn't matter LOL

[zayda_asher]

Forget about it LOL

You think I'm taking things out of context and somehow being insulting to your Derm which I wasn't, if you cared to see what I was saying instead of assuming you would have seen that.

Nope, I don't think you are being insulting to my derm... I do see what you are saying, I just don't agree with it

[sas]

No you don't see what I'm saying, that is why I'm saying forget about it.

I don't care of you agree with me or not, it's not what I was putting across.

[zayda_asher]

No you don't see what I'm saying, that is why I'm saying forget about it.

I don't care of you agree with me or not, it's not what I was putting across.

If its easier for you to assume that I don't see or don't want to see, then whatever, ok...

[zayda_asher]

He is also prone to yeast infections in his ears so I dont give him anything in his diet that has wheat/gluten or yeast.

Unless he actually has adverse food reactions to those specific items, then not adding them to the diet wont make a difference to the secondary yeast infection he gets on his skin... Monica Segal discusses the myth of not feeding "sugars / grains to feed the yeast" in chapt 18 of Optimal Nutrition... I can type out the bit on yeast later if you want... need to get off the comp for a moment now though (sore neck!)

[zayda_asher]

He is also prone to yeast infections in his ears so I dont give him anything in his diet that has wheat/gluten or yeast.

Unless he actually has adverse food reactions to those specific items, then not adding them to the diet wont make a difference to the secondary yeast infection he gets on his skin... Monica Segal discusses the myth of not feeding "sugars / grains to feed the yeast" in chapt 18 of Optimal Nutrition... I can type out the bit on yeast later if you want... need to get off the comp for a moment now though (sore neck!)

Here's some more info: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_yeast...f_the_skin.html

This is from the first edition of Monica Segal's K9 Kitchen, instead of Optimal Nutrition, but its the same info:

Many people seem to be confused about yeast in connection to carbohydrates. It took me some time to understand it as well. Allegations of yeast feeding on carbohydrates are popular myths.

There is no direct connection to carbohydrates and yeast. Yeast feeds on simple glucose just as other organisms do. Carbohydrates are converted into glucose, as are fats. Addressing the underlying problem that has caused a weakened immune system should be the goal. Food allergies or any number of other things can cause yeast to proliferate. Here are two food examples, although the yeast overgrowth may not have a dietary connection to begin with.

Allergies to gluten, for instance, may be resolved by feeding rice rather than oats or other grains that contain gluten. In turn, the yeast problem is likely to disappear. The allergy may be to a variety of meat instead. In this instance, removing the offending meat source from the diet results in better health, which in turn helps the body to keep the yeast at bay.

So it is the underlying problem that needs to be addressed rather than the amount of carbohydrates. If the dog happens to have a gluten allergy and grains are omitted, it is probable that the pet owner will notice improvement in the dog. This shouldn't be confused with the notion that carbohydrates are evil. pp.83-84

Edited May 30, 2010 by zayda_asher

[Mas1981]

He is also prone to yeast infections in his ears so I dont give him anything in his diet that has wheat/gluten or yeast.

Unless he actually has adverse food reactions to those specific items, then not adding them to the diet wont make a difference to the secondary yeast infection he gets on his skin... Monica Segal discusses the myth of not feeding "sugars / grains to feed the yeast" in chapt 18 of Optimal Nutrition... I can type out the bit on yeast later if you want... need to get off the comp for a moment now though (sore neck!)

Here's some more info: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_yeast...f_the_skin.html

This is from the first edition of Monica Segal's K9 Kitchen, instead of Optimal Nutrition, but its the same info:

Many people seem to be confused about yeast in connection to carbohydrates. It took me some time to understand it as well. Allegations of yeast feeding on carbohydrates are popular myths.

There is no direct connection to carbohydrates and yeast. Yeast feeds on simple glucose just as other organisms do. Carbohydrates are converted into glucose, as are fats. Addressing the underlying problem that has caused a weakened immune system should be the goal. Food allergies or any number of other things can cause yeast to proliferate. Here are two food examples, although the yeast overgrowth may not have a dietary connection to begin with.

Allergies to gluten, for instance, may be resolved by feeding rice rather than oats or other grains that contain gluten. In turn, the yeast problem is likely to disappear. The allergy may be to a variety of meat instead. In this instance, removing the offending meat source from the diet results in better health, which in turn helps the body to keep the yeast at bay.

So it is the underlying problem that needs to be addressed rather than the amount of carbohydrates. If the dog happens to have a gluten allergy and grains are omitted, it is probable that the pet owner will notice improvement in the dog. This shouldn't be confused with the notion that carbohydrates are evil. pp.83-84

Thanks ZA, just shows that the 'experts' sometimes dont know what they are talking about, was told to keep him off certain foods.

[zayda_asher]

Yeah, for some reason that one myth has become a very prevalent and enduring one that lots of people believe without question, even those that should know better

Edited May 30, 2010 by zayda_asher

[Monah]

ZA very informative, my experiences mirror your info. and we did do the build up vacc, 3 of increasing strengths over a period of time then the final strength for the rest of the vacc. which we are still on.

My dog had huge ear troubles and the vacc. has meant no ear probs at all since, so about 18 months. It's wonderful.

I'm wondering with time frames and ''success' and 'cures' etc. if some people might not listen porperly because they are worried or stressed. I also think it's very important as a client, to ask questions, as many as you can think of, to clarify things. Even repeat things back ie. So, you are saying there is a 70% cure rate?

No, I am saying there is a 70% success rate in the range of symptoms............

etc. if you get what I mean? Communication is very important and often the client is to blame through not realising what the jargon really means.

[Dagmar]

I read it as if the desensibilisation is not working for your dog, if you did not see improvement.

Not sure, why spending more money in a treatment that does not work.

Have you considered going another path? Detoxing, balancing the immune system, acupressure, etc? It works for my dogs and many of my client's.

I have considered going the alternative medicine path, but I'm a bit sceptical about some of the things I've read. That being said I havn't discounted it yet.

It is good to be sceptical - there are a few black sheep around for sure!

I work as an Animal Therapist AND I am a very down to earth person, so using an alternative modality means for me that I should not have to believe in something to make it work (dogs would not know what to believe in anyway) and I would only use modalities with no negative side effects.

To be honest, I am not a big fan of so called 'alternative' methods, I prefer the expression complementary.

For me personally it is most important to find a way that is best for the dog.

Sometimes that is conventional medicine, sometimes it is alternative and quite often it is a combination.

I try to avoid chemicals when possible and if they needed to be used I detox the system afterwards.

Any questions reg. 'other' ways - please feel free to just ask! I don't bite

[Dagmar]

I have considered going the alternative medicine path, but I'm a bit sceptical about some of the things I've read. That being said I havn't discounted it yet.

I chose to follow the "alternative" track, rather than run with antibiotics, cortisone etc. I know that there is argument that will counter my thoughts, but I took the option of "alternative" first, leaving the conventional option open to me should I require it. I don't have a crystal ball to know whether my choice is right or wrong. All I have is my dog to look at and gauge from how he has been and how he is now.

My boy's issues seem to relate more to digestive issues and build up of toxins from within due to his digestive system not functioning at its optimum. The symptoms by all accounts have been the same and/or similar to any other allergy symptoms. Hives; interdigital cysts; oily/flakey skin; ear issues; gunky eyes. We also have symptoms of loose stools and of refusing certain foods.

I've worked with him holistically for 18 months. We have periods of success (maybe 4 - 7 months at a time) and then set-backs. I'm now under the guidance of a Canine Naturopath. Even at her own admission, my boy has been a tough job and has taken a long time to respond by comparison to any of the other dogs she has worked with over the years.

I've been working under this Naturopath's guidance since last December. We've worked through the hives (he had literally several hundred hives covering the greater portion of his body, when he broke out last November). We've worked through the inter-digital cysts. His coat condition is much improved. He had a small outbreak of hives about a week ago - there were only about 4 or 5 hives and his own body dealt with them without interferance or assistance from me, and they were pretty much disappeared inside two or three days. Nothing by comparison to his previous 2 outbreaks. We've worked through his ears issue and I still tend to treat that once a week (it's only been a recent thing). His coat is good - I know it is capable of being even better. We're working on his now loose stool symptom. I hold my breath when I reluctantly tell you (for fear of jinx) that this seems to be improving as well - albeit slowly and more slowly than one might expect, but that's been the way of it for my boy.

It's not over for us and until my boy begins to eat normally, I know things still are not as they could or should be. And I also know that until he hasn't had an outbreak of allergy symptoms for a year, then I won't even remotely begin to think there's a possibility we're through and past that.

For us it has been a lot of work, but my boy's issue has made it more complex than perhaps others would find for their own dogs. But we're working on the inside of my dog as well as dealing with the outside symptoms. My kitchen bench is dotted with his 'treatment' supplies. Vitamins; Aloe Vera Gel; Calendula Tea; Colloidal Silver; tablets; ear drops; other powders; cotton wool balls. Don't necessarily use them all at once - it depends on what is happening with him at the time.

But looking at him, he's improved, he looks well (albeit lean - but more solid than he was .... time for development may be a contributing factor for that). And I'm happy to know that I've done and am doing it without having to address chemical drugs at this point.

I won't tell you that it's easy. But I also wouldn't necessarily suggest that anyone else would find it as difficult as I have either.

IMO and as far as my experience has taken me so far, natural methods are worth trying.

A very important point - if you are after a 'quick fix', then please don't go 'alternative'. You will only get that with conventional medicine (if you are lucky), a temporary relief due to the suppression of symptoms.

If you try to find out what causes a problem in the first place, especially chronic issues, then alternative or complementary ways are the better options.

Besides of getting rid of the problems for good eventually, you will learn a lot on the way, if dealing with the right practitioner.

[harryviolet]

Hi all. I am new here. Looking for advice to buy cyclosporin cheaper. My vet advised me to get online and look. I am now buying Atopica at $7 a tablet which I am using 1 per day.

I have an 8 month old golden retriever pup with severe atopic dermatitis. My vet at the large vet hospital I go to says I cannot go to the dermatologist he works with until she is off cortisone and we cannot do that yet and she has to be on a food elimination diet for 8 weeks and I cannot do that as I tried the kangaroo but she is a puppy who will not eat kangaroo tail and I am not prepared to feed her only kangaroo meat and potato for 8 weeks.

She has had atopic dermatitis since 3 months of age. It followed her vaccination but also the start of the paspalum season and I have 9 acres of head high paspalum next to my back door. All over her body is a red "rash" of pimples/ boils and she is hot to the touch all over. Scratches till it bleeds. She has been treated with anti-histamines, anti-biotics (including pulse therapy), cortisone creams (useless), and I use episoothe shampoo, emu oil topically (great), raw aloe vera (she loves this) and tea tree oil. Started on cortisone a few months ago but this will shorten her life with destructive effects on her liver and other organs so I keep it in reserve and use 10 mg once or twice a week. I feed her only lamb, vegetables and rice - never kibble. Take her to a beach every day even though it is 40 mins away and almost never walk her on grass. With this regime, I am exhausted and poor but the red welts and painful itching is perhaps one or two nights a week only that we do not sleep, until the cortisone kicks in.

Started her on Atopica 10 days ago. Instant "cure" except for 3 days or more after she ate a bowl of cat kibble and some wet tuna by mistake she got some redness and had to be fed some cortisone as well. Now back to NORMAL. Playing a lot more and simply HAPPIER and scratch free for the first time and I am sleeping. I am just horrified at the cost. $200 a month.

Any advice as to cheaper - eg generic - options. One poster here said "I get it in liquid form from a compounding pharmacy and it costs me $550 for 100ml - which is cost price."

Sorry for the long post.

Edited May 31, 2010 by harryviolet

[Mas1981]

Hi all. I am new here. Looking for advice to buy cyclosporin cheaper. My vet advised me to get online and look. I am now buying Atopica at $7 a tablet which I am using 1 per day.

I have an 8 month old golden retriever pup with severe atopic dermatitis. My vet at the large vet hospital I go to says I cannot go to the dermatologist he works with until she is off cortisone and we cannot do that yet and she has to be on a food elimination diet for 8 weeks and I cannot do that as I tried the kangaroo but she is a puppy who will not eat kangaroo tail and I am not prepared to feed her only kangaroo meat and potato for 8 weeks.

She has had atopic dermatitis since 3 months of age. It followed her vaccination but also the start of the paspalum season and I have 9 acres of head high paspalum next to my back door. All over her body is a red "rash" of pimples/ boils and she is hot to the touch all over. Scratches till it bleeds. She has been treated with anti-histamines, anti-biotics (including pulse therapy), cortisone creams (useless), and I use episoothe shampoo, emu oil topically (great), raw aloe vera (she loves this) and tea tree oil. Started on cortisone a few months ago but this will shorten her life with destructive effects on her liver and other organs so I keep it in reserve and use 10 mg once or twice a week. I feed her only lamb, vegetables and rice - never kibble. Take her to a beach every day even though it is 40 mins away and almost never walk her on grass. With this regime, I am exhausted and poor but the red welts and painful itching is perhaps one or two nights a week only that we do not sleep, until the cortisone kicks in.

Started her on Atopica 10 days ago. Instant "cure" except for 3 days or more after she ate a bowl of cat kibble and some wet tuna by mistake she got some redness and had to be fed some cortisone as well. Now back to NORMAL. Playing a lot more and simply HAPPIER and scratch free for the first time and I am sleeping. I am just horrified at the cost. $200 a month.

Any advice as to cheaper - eg generic - options. One poster here said "I get it in liquid form from a compounding pharmacy and it costs me $550 for 100ml - which is cost price."

Sorry for the long post.

Hi there, your dogs allergies sound awful, for the elimination diet you dont have to feed roo meat, it can be any meat your dog has not had before, if we go on an elimination diet I am going to ask if I can use turkey or maybe goat or camel. Even though my dog has not been off cortisone for 30 days I am still taking him to the derm as they can guide you and give you advice about what to do. Maybe send Zayder Asher a personal message as she may know where to get the Atopica etc.

[harryviolet]

Thanks for that advice. For an elimination diet the roo was fine but my girl is just a puppy so she needs her bones at least and so the best I could do was lamb and she is fine on that. I buy lamb shanks and she also seems OK on "Four Legs" lamb/veggies/rice from the refrigerated section of pet food in Woolies. She was also not too bad on EaglePack lamb and veggie kibble but I stopped all kibble 3 months ago.

All I can say is the Atopica is amazing ....

;'

[Mas1981]

Thanks for that advice. For an elimination diet the roo was fine but my girl is just a puppy so she needs her bones at least and so the best I could do was lamb and she is fine on that. I buy lamb shanks and she also seems OK on "Four Legs" lamb/veggies/rice from the refrigerated section of pet food in Woolies. She was also not too bad on EaglePack lamb and veggie kibble but I stopped all kibble 3 months ago.

All I can say is the Atopica is amazing ....

;'

I cant give my dog the 4legs it makes him scratch like mad. Can you not get roo bones?