lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 I took Misha back to the dermatologist to get another intradermal test done to see if the allergy vaccine she has been on for 1.5 years had had any effect, as I had not seen any improvement. When the first intradermal test was done, before she was put on the vaccine she only had high reactions to Dust mites & storage mites, all the rest of the antigens tested she did not react to. In the intradermal test done yesterday, she had unchanged high reactions to dust mites & storage mites and high reactions to more things: mosquitoes, house flies, horse flies & cockroaches and medium responses to feathers and low scores to plants I am dealing with the Dermatology resident at the moment and she said that Misha starting to react to a whole new host of things is not a problem and some dogs just have an ability to become allergic to things. She has proposed that the new allergens be added to the allergy vaccine and we start with the new formula from scratch, as well as putting her on cortisone tablets, which so far she has not been on. From my limited understanding of these things, this seems like a bad plan, the vaccine has had no effect in 1.5 years I have been administering it, as I understand it, the vaccine is meant to build up over time a resistance to the allergen, combating Misha’s overactive immune system, but if she is now reacting to things she never reacted to before does that not mean her immune system is becoming even more overactive which would be a result of being exposed to more and more of her current allergens over the last 1.5 years. My apologies for the long post, but I’m really confused about the treatment plan, and presently I do not have much faith in the Dermatology Resident as she has been doing this for a shorter amount of time than I have been treating Misha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 When was the first test done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 First Time Puppy Owner said: When was the first test done? 1.5 years ago, she has been on the vaccine since then, as well as anti-histamines and cortisone cream/spray for flare ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 lillim said: First Time Puppy Owner said: When was the first test done? 1.5 years ago, she has been on the vaccine since then, as well as anti-histamines and cortisone cream/spray for flare ups. sorry my bad I should have said what age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 First Time Puppy Owner said: lillim said: First Time Puppy Owner said: When was the first test done? 1.5 years ago, she has been on the vaccine since then, as well as anti-histamines and cortisone cream/spray for flare ups. sorry my bad I should have said what age? She is 3 in August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 I would trial another vaccine with all the components in it that she has developed allergies to for a 6-12mth period if it were me. As she could have very rapidly developed those other allergies following the initial test. If you still have no luck perhaps consider low dose pred (cheapest alternative for the duration of her life) or perhaps Atopica. This is however extremely expensive. Also I will send in Zayda_Asher to talk to you further as she is soooo much more knowledgeable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) Is there another specialist dermo vet you can go to??? If so, I would be getting a second opinion however when you are dealing with immune system issues it can be very difficult to get a positive outcome. There seems to be so much that is just not known or if known, then able to be satisfactorily addressed. Edited May 27, 2010 by STITCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) It sounds to me like you need to talk to a derm and get it explained to you fully, do you have a derm you normally see besides the registrar? I have never heard of doing a further intradermal test to determine if immunotherapy was working, it doesn't make sense to do so imo and I don't think it would tell you that it was working (I could be wrong, but we've been dealing with allergy dogs for 8 and a half years and never had this suggested, testing is only to determine what they are allergic to and what should be avoided / go in the immunotherapy). Are you sure that's why she was retested? It wasn't just because she was having more issues symptom wise and they wanted to make sure there was not more allergies developing (which there was). Dogs can develop more allergies as they age, not all do, but it is not that uncommon for it to happen either. Both mine have... Humans do it too... and symptom patterns can also change as you age, sometimes a change in symptoms is also indicative of new allergies forming. Quote From my limited understanding of these things, this seems like a bad plan, the vaccine has had no effect in 1.5 years I have been administering it, as I understand it, the vaccine is meant to build up over time a resistance to the allergen, combating Misha’s overactive immune system, but if she is now reacting to things she never reacted to before does that not mean her immune system is becoming even more overactive which would be a result of being exposed to more and more of her current allergens over the last 1.5 years. The immunotherapy "vaccine" will not make the dog's system less prone to developing NEW allergies, it doesn't in general make the immune system cope better. What it does is force the system to deal better with the allergens that are in the vaccine (so in your case that would be storage and dust mites), which means you should see less symptoms even though they are exposed to those particular allergens. I don't think this would necessarily translate to a lower score on the intradermal panel though: My girl's original immunotherapy was for alternaria mould, and in her second intradermal panel (because she developed more symptoms and more allergies) the alternaria reaction was still a 4, however, if we take her off the immunotherapy she falls to pieces and becomes much more symptomatic, so it makes a huge difference for her. Now she is on her new immunotherapy as well and we don't see her new symptoms either, as long as she is not exposed at a very large level, biggest of these being mass urticaria (hive) outbreaks. I think it depends on the individual and how responsive they are to the immunotherapy and also how sensitive they are to their allergens. Some dogs are very sensitive and end up being on immunotherapy for life, where as some do see a dramatic improvement with a shorter course. You have to try and see... Some dogs are not responsive to immunotherapy at all, but they are not as common. Have you taken her off her immunotherapy and seen if you have a return of symptoms that you do not have when she is on it? If so, then the immunotherapy is beneficial and worth continuing. We actually have Zayda's old immunotherapy separate from her new one, as her old one we can maintain her on at 6 week intervals, where as her new one we are only on 3 week intervals at the moment. Ideally you want to get them to the largest interval in between that you can maintain condition on... some dogs can be weaned off all together eventually, but I believe this is not that common. What interval are you currently giving it at? I don't think putting her old one in with the new ones would be as efficient, because you would also go back to the lower dosage as you introduce the new one, unless your Derm does the RUSH treatment, in which case it may make no difference. We are certainly not 100% symptom free with immunotherapy, but we see a dramatic reduction and it helps to keep her under a level where we do not get major symptoms like yeast infections. My boy was on immunotherapy, but he became sensitized to his, so we decided to take him off and try other things to control his symptoms. In summary: if you see improved condition whilst on the immunotherapy, its working for you. If you see absolutely no change in symptoms, then it may not be the best option for your dog. Often I find people don't realise how much improvement there is until they see the back slide that happens with withdrawal. Immunotherapy isn't a cure, there is no cure for allergies and nothing will stop them potentially becoming sensitized to new things unfortunately, but immunotherapy can help control symptoms by helping the immune system learn to cope with the allergens in the immunotherapy a bit better. Edited May 27, 2010 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 What other treatment and management protocols, besides the immunotherapy, are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 The Dermatology resident we have seen the last 2 times is the protegee of our regular Dermatologist. Yes the intradermal test was done to see if the if immunotherapy was working, not it was not because it was suspected she had developed other allergies, this is what the resident told me No ,i haven't tried taking her off the immunotherapy, I do like this idea it does seem like it would give a better indication about the immunotherapy's effectiveness RUSH treatment - would you mind explaining what you mean? ;) The dosage of the vaccine was reduced from 100 units to 35 awhile ago because she was getting worse symptoms on the 100 units ( the doses had been built up to this) treatment at the moment is: Daily Anti-histamines (Iramine) Application of Cortisone cream/spray for flare ups Bathing fortnightly with maleseb Omega 3 oil added to meals Taking as many measures as possible around the home with cleaning and washing to reduce dust mite population thank you for taking the time to explain all this, I appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results. I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Dante aquires new allergies every year, from what I understand that's pretty typical in allergic dogs. If you have been doing the injections for 1.5 years with no success I personaly would not continue with them, but best put that question to your Derm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. We did it and it didn't work, we live on Cortisone as many of his allergens are things we can not control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 sas said: Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. We did it and it didn't work, we live on Cortisone as many of his allergens are things we can not control. That would be an option for us but my dog is not tolerant of cortisone he gets incontinent and very depressed. I heard there is something called cyclosporin that some people are using, wonder how successful it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 sas said: Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. We did it and it didn't work, we live on Cortisone as many of his allergens are things we can not control. how long you you try the immunotherapy for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lillim Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. from my very limited understanding, its about managing the dogs allergies, After Misha initially had an intradermal test the Dermatologist gave other options on how to manage the allergies this included medicating with anti histamines or cortisone and other measures to reduce the dustmite population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) Mas1981 said: sas said: Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. We did it and it didn't work, we live on Cortisone as many of his allergens are things we can not control. That would be an option for us but my dog is not tolerant of cortisone he gets incontinent and very depressed. I heard there is something called cyclosporin that some people are using, wonder how successful it is. Yep Cyclosporin would be cool if you can afford it. For myself I can't afford that as well as the pain killers he would also need daily if he went off Cortisone as he has Osteo-Arthritis which the Cortisone masks most of the time. It would be over $100 a week for Cyclosporin and then add the pain killers to that for my size dog, he already costs close to $100 a week to feed a special diet to including supplementation...oh the fun of an allergic dog! Edited May 27, 2010 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) lillim said: sas said: Mas1981 said: Lillim I feel for you, you must have spent a fortune and it seems that you have seen little results.I am just wondering for myself ( and maybe others) if one cannot afford immunotherapy or if it does not work for your dog what its the next best thing to try? I for one dont want to spend $1000's of dollars and then we dont get any sort of improvement, I know this can be the case and if I had loads of money I would not be hesitating but I am not well off at all. We did it and it didn't work, we live on Cortisone as many of his allergens are things we can not control. how long you you try the immunotherapy for? Over a year. We were told that a result would be seen by the 6 month mark if it were going to happen but we kept with it longer. When we did it, we were told approx. 20% of cases were successful, I'm not sure what the current stats are. Edited May 27, 2010 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 lillim what a stressful rollercoaster. We have a dog on vaccine too, 100ml every 3 weeks. She has been on it for nearly 2 years with very good results. I was told if she did not improve on the first lot of vacc, (the 3 leading up to a stronger dose) that we would have to rethink and make up another type of vaccine for her. Sometimes it's hit and miss and you have to try several vaccs. before you get it right. We were just very lucky the first time (or else had a great derm!!!!) I don't know how best you can manage this problem, however if it were me I think I'd try another vacc mix. I am lucky to have an excellent derm specialist, Mike Shipstone, in QLD. He goes over and above in service in every way. It is so distressing having an allergic dog, I really hope you are able to sort this out, don't give up. Ours is allergic to every flippin' plant and grass known to man! Best wishesxxxxxxx PS I'm pretty sure I was told there was a pretty high success rate, around 70 to 80%, definately not only 20% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 Sorry, re costs, I've found this treatment MUCh cheaper than the creams, meds, shampoos, vet visits, ear drops etc etc. that we were on before the vacc. The initial tests were $400, the first 3 vacc mixes where you get stronger and stronger were about $600 and this lasted about 4 months (dont quote me, I'm trying to remember ) then the end vacc was $350 and this lasts about 10 to 12 months. I was paying up to $300 a week for everything else at one stage for around 6 months while we tried everything )and many tests sent to USA) to fix my dog's issues. Her ears were badly affected and she has giant!! canals so several surulan etc. per week were used, plus meds etc. It was a nightmare and she got fed up with having her poor ears touched Best thing I've ever done was to have a vacc made up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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