Desexing Females

[Nekhbet]

If you want a working dog you go on the dogs merits. OK when we talk about civil testosterone DOES help in territoriality. But there are a good number of civil bitches out there. Also there is not always a massive size difference between males and females. A good working female can still be a muscly dog. Take a look at the bitches on this site - http://www.truehaus.com/ - I wouldnt wipe them off particularly with their proven performance record. I want that bitch to raise my future pup, not just 'bitch out of Blah vom Blerky blah" as her only achievement.

If you want a performance dog you go on the merit of the dog. Males can fail as well as females. Fear periods can be just as annoying and crappy in males and females. A dog bred from good stock and has a strong desire and capability to work coupled with a good handler/owner will succeed.

SecretKei I will get back to you on the injection, I know it can prevent the chance of future litters but since my bitch wont be bred from (HIGHLY ANNOYING but what can I do) I dont care about infertility. My friend has her dog on it and it has not had adverse effects on it physically or mentally.

If we're talking about schutzhund now, though- if males are better at the sport, as you've said, does it really matter that few bitches are trialled? If the aim is to produce dogs of either sex to do the best job possible, but males are almost always better at it than bitches, then can't you assess the worth of a breeding bitch by the calibre of her sons in competition (if that's the best way to assess them)? Sure, you need to assess the bitch herself for working traits before deciding to keep and breed her, but I'd expect most breeders to be able to train a bitch to a high level themselves, without having to compete, and be able to ensure that she was a quality performer before breeding her. And people trying to decide which bitch lines to go for can still look at all the dogs competing and see which bitch lines are producing the best performing dogs.

I think we forget the SV system is not limited exclusively to males. The reason people here import males is you get better value for money from stud fees then the possibility of a bitch that cannot produce a litter.

[mjk05]

I think we forget the SV system is not limited exclusively to males. The reason people here import males is you get better value for money from stud fees then the possibility of a bitch that cannot produce a litter.

I don't know anything about the SV system- why do people think it is limited to males?

And yep, I'm sure that's a major factor- if you're going to spend $10 grand+ importing a dog, you'd want to maximise your chances of getting a return, I guess- plus, if you really think it's a fabulous dog, it can have much more impact through breeding, considering number of pups, length of breeding life, semen storage and possibility of AI years later.

I'd be really interested in hearing about the injection, too- we have a pet bitch with a severe heart defect who has irregular and mostly silent seasons. She isn't fit for surgery, and it's a nightmare trying to manage her with entire dogs around.

[shortstep]

I'd be really interested in hearing about the injection, too- we have a pet bitch with a severe heart defect who has irregular and mostly silent seasons. She isn't fit for surgery, and it's a nightmare trying to manage her with entire dogs around.

From the web, a vets comments.

Delvosteron Injections. These are a type of hormone injection that control seasons well with very few problems. Bitches on routine injections are less likely to put on weight and can lose it if dieted. Springers and setters keep their fine coats and bitches are no more likely to leak urine than untreated dogs. It increases the incidence of Pyometras from roughly 17.2% in normal bitches to 17.4% in treated bitches, which, we feel, is basically negligible. If we decide to use the drug we need to give one injection to start with, repeated again in 3 months and again in 4 months and then she needs routine injections every 5 months. We recommend continuing the injections indefinitely, and we have certainly seen 13 year old dogs get pregnant if we stop them. We routinely send out reminder cards when the next injection is due and a further reminder a month later if we have not seen you.

The disadvantages are that a few dogs develop false pregnancies a month or so after the injection and will have to have another injection then. Also we have known dogs to develop white patches or bald spots where the injections have been given. This is usually confined to whippets and greyhounds and in these breeds we often give the injection over the tummy.

Unfortunately a few dogs find that the injection stings for a few minutes after it has been given and they get very worried about coming to the surgery.

We recommend these injections in bitches where we decide that we want to prevent seasons but for some reason do not want to operate.

Want to Breed later?

We would strongly recommend that you do not use any form of drug to prevent seasons. We have seen a few occasions when bitches treated with any of the above drugs do not come back into season for years, and we know a number of breeders who feel that the injections cause a long term reduction in fertility. The manufacturers of Delvosteron have a lot of evidence to show that bitches do come back into season and usually conceive normally, but we feel that you are taking a risk and cannot recommend it.

[mjk05]

Thanks.

For anyone else, the drug name is proligestone, and I think its called Covinan in Australia.

[jesomil]

ETA OOps, not going to get involved. Sitting on naughty hands

Also, changed avatar so further biases when reading my posts will be avoided

Edited May 31, 2010 by jesomil

[Black Bronson]

In Schutzhund competition if she couldn't beat the boys I would desex and retire her as a pet and work her for fun or a training dog for people new to the sport.

No the attitude would be if the DOG cannot come up to standard snip and find another hobby. No matter what the gender. You bias yourself before you even try it out.

Yes in security and schutzhund I think its the macho mentality that keeps bitches out. They're shit, they're hormonal, they're unreliable. Crap.

I wouldn't work a female as a security dog by choice, but she would be worth trying her out desexed

I would and I have. I know a couple of other people that do as well. Entire as well. IF a dog has drive a season will not reduce her to a shivering mess, in fact I have seen maturity of attitude, more ferocity and improvement after every season. My bitch is 6 1/2 now and she keeps my males in line, and she is my fearless protector. I think preconceived notions and sterotypes prevent bitches being trained, not the fact that many many people have actually tried and failed. You know what its like, the males go training and work and the bitches stay at home ot have the puppies. That is a mentality that is THANKFULLY changing. Do you know Max von Stephanitz preferred bitches as working dogs over males? They were more responsive to the handler and bonded more closely. He thought males were a bit too full of themselves at times and I agree, as much as I like working them my Malinios is incredibly responsive. You want to preserve the breed and talk about working dogs make sure you have a read up on history. Bitches can be fearsome fighters and workers AND still produce the pups that go on to perpetuate the breed.

There are injections to stop bitches coming on heat, greyhounds are on them so they can race. I am going to start these now with my girl to see how she goes on them as I simply am running out of the time to deal with another season. She always wants to work and train for most of the time she is on heat as well so I dont see it as a barrier.

Yes a female can work well no argument in that regard, but very few will work as well as a male in any Schutzhund, K9, security type of work. Neither will many world level trainers recommend a female to achieve a top performance working dog. I am sure people like Ivan Balabanov if we are talking Malinios, would have bitches as good as yours to choose from Nekhbet, but he recommends a male in preference to a female for serious sporting/security work. Why would someone with the credentials of Balabanov recommend that, if equal or better performance can be obtained from a female???

Edited May 31, 2010 by Black Bronson

[poodlefan]

BB:

Why would someone with the credentials of Balabanov recommend that, if equal or better performance can be obtained from a female???

Perhaps because a bitch in season isn't always allowed to compete and probably creates havoc with other dogs... especially seeing as most others would be entire males.

[Nekhbet]

I think more research has to be put in on bitches that are having the injections to cease seasons. A bitch on heat is usually the major drawback to most people and they dont want to deal with it, hell I can understand why its a total PITA especially at training and there are a lot of male dogs about. But I think discounting bitches for some work simply because they are a bitch is not the way to go, I think we're well and truely past the dark ages.

[Black Bronson]

I think more research has to be put in on bitches that are having the injections to cease seasons. A bitch on heat is usually the major drawback to most people and they dont want to deal with it, hell I can understand why its a total PITA especially at training and there are a lot of male dogs about. But I think discounting bitches for some work simply because they are a bitch is not the way to go, I think we're well and truely past the dark ages.

I don't think it's really a case of being in the dark ages, it's more of a physical advantage with a male, no seasons, no mood or temperament changes and greater size and power. There are some large bitches, but there are also tiny bitches too. There is a massive size difference between a bitch on the low end to a male on the high end in a GSD for instance and probably in a puppy, a male presents a better opportunity at reaching a desirable working size.

I definitely wouldn't discount a bitch if selecting an adult dog to train for a specific working role when you can evaluate and compare adult traits, but I can't see myself every purchasing a female puppy for a working dog unless having breeding in mind