Desexing Females

[WreckitWhippet]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

[Red Fox]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

Well yes and no.. perhaps that is true for a serious working dog, particularly if it's from very sought after lines and the owner has some experience in breeding. But then not everyone is that serious, nor willing to go down that path. For some it's a lifestyle and for others it's a hobby. Plus not every dog will be suitable to breed from either - for example an agility champion that happens to be of mixed breed ;) However I can certainly understand where you are coming from.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

Thanks CBR and SBT.

I will have to see as my bitch is coming into season and nearing her first show, I dont mind upsetting my dog but I would not like to upset anyone elses, mmm a good one to think about.

[OSoSwift]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

Because my dog was bought for herself, not a breeding machine to pump out puppies, or recover her "cost" - as so many people do.

I bought her for her and the things we could do togther. If she was good at what she did and people wanted one like her, then I suggest they try to get one from the same lines, or the same bitch or dog as my bitch. YOu are more like to get the same from a repeat mating than from one of her babies. Many mnay people are not into breeding, or have the time and resources to breed.

Ooh Ohh tell me where I can get a dog that will recover its cost! I bet anyone on DOL has never recvered their cost! lol

Dogs are a never ending hand in pocket expense! lol

Well mine always have been! ;)

Sorry I should have said "try" to recover the cost of purchasing the bitch. Some do but it usually means they do it on the cheap.

[OSoSwift]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

Thanks CBR and SBT.

I will have to see as my bitch is coming into season and nearing her first show, I dont mind upsetting my dog but I would not like to upset anyone elses, mmm a good one to think about.

I used to take mine if she was coming into or out of season, but I did not show her if she was in obvious standing heat as I didn't think it was fair, but I also had horror visions of someones dog getting loose and do naughty things to my little girl!

[mjk05]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

But a working dog breeder still gets useful information from the performance of desexed animals, about their "work/sport capabilities" and the sort of offspring their parents are producing.

If someone wants one of our dogs just as a working or trialling animal, and isn't keen and informed on breeding, we'll always suggest desexing, especially for females- usually at 6-9 months. They still get a dog to do the work they need, the management is much easier, and we still find out what sort of dogs we're producing from their feedback. The few occasions that we have a puppy go to a non-working home (pet or agility), we usually ask the owners if they'd at least start them in stockwork so we can get at least some idea how the whole litter have turned out.

Personally, I desex non-breeding dogs at 6-9 months in females because I don't think the growth/development problem is as much an issue in bitches, and because there is the significant benefit of avoiding mammary cancer if you desex before the first season. A friend of mine is a vet and high level agility competitor, and that's what she suggests. With dogs I leave them entire until they give me a reason to de-nut.

[pie]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

Thanks CBR and SBT.

I will have to see as my bitch is coming into season and nearing her first show, I dont mind upsetting my dog but I would not like to upset anyone elses, mmm a good one to think about.

I used to take mine if she was coming into or out of season, but I did not show her if she was in obvious standing heat as I didn't think it was fair, but I also had horror visions of someones dog getting loose and do naughty things to my little girl!

Not to mention it's hardly pretty with the short coated dogs ;)

[OSoSwift]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

Thanks CBR and SBT.

I will have to see as my bitch is coming into season and nearing her first show, I dont mind upsetting my dog but I would not like to upset anyone elses, mmm a good one to think about.

I used to take mine if she was coming into or out of season, but I did not show her if she was in obvious standing heat as I didn't think it was fair, but I also had horror visions of someones dog getting loose and do naughty things to my little girl!

Not to mention it's hardly pretty with the short coated dogs ;)

Yep can't hide much there!

[Serket]

I used to take mine if she was coming into or out of season, but I did not show her if she was in obvious standing heat as I didn't think it was fair, but I also had horror visions of someones dog getting loose and do naughty things to my little girl!

Not to mention it's hardly pretty with the short coated dogs

Yep can't hide much there!

I dunno, I've got some gorgeous red splotches on a lovely golden tail and all through her 'pants' here right now At least a short coated dog must be easier to clean up? I suppose at least the hair catches it instead of my floor, mostly. Dog is easier to clean than my cream carpet

[Wazzat Xolo]

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Yep.. you're so right there!

Can someone tell me why a bitch can compete in the showring when its in season? I would have thought this was unfair to fellow competers?

Because bitches shouldn't be penalised for being bitches and coming into season. You can train and correct your males to ignore bitches in season , to a certain degree for the show ring. Mine don't really give a stuff about the girls being in season. The ring is supposed to be about conformation and it's a couple of minutes at a time. Running a triangle and out and back and stacking for 30 odd seconds , doesn't really compare to what you do in the obedience ring, in terms of exercises and time.

It's not fair for dogs competing in other dog sports and obedience to have the added distraction, the playing field would not be even if a bitch in season was competing.

Thanks CBR and SBT.

I will have to see as my bitch is coming into season and nearing her first show, I dont mind upsetting my dog but I would not like to upset anyone elses, mmm a good one to think about.

I used to take mine if she was coming into or out of season, but I did not show her if she was in obvious standing heat as I didn't think it was fair, but I also had horror visions of someones dog getting loose and do naughty things to my little girl!

Not to mention it's hardly pretty with the short coated dogs

Yep can't hide much there!

Well thats answers it then I have no way of hiding anything lol

Could add a whole new meaning for some to the name Xolo itz cuint le !

Edited May 27, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[oakway]

Just came across this and thought it may be helpful to some people.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EPIPHYSEAL PLATE CLOSURE IN DOGS

First broadcast on www.provet.co.uk on February 27th 2000. Focus on Orthopaedics Week

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This information is provided by Provet for educational purposes only.

You should seek the advice of your veterinarian if your pet is ill as only he or she can correctly advise on the diagnosis and recommend the treatment that is most appropriate for your pet.

In evaluating radiographs of the skeleton of young animals it is important to know the usual closure times of growth plates in order to decide whether there is premature, or delayed closure.

The following tables list the range and average closure times (in days after birth) reported by different authors worldwide.

TABLE 1 - DOGS

Growth Plate Closure - Range (days) Closure - Average (days)

FORELIMB

Tuber scapulae 117-210 186

Proximal humeral epiphysis 273-465 375

Medial and lateral humeral condyles 138-236 187

Medial humeral epicondyle 187-240 216

Proximal radial epiphysis 136-330 258

Distal radial epiphysis 136-510 318

Proximal ulnar epiphysis 161-450 258

Distal ulnar epiphysis 217-450 308

Intermediate and radial carpal bones 101

Central carpal bone 110

Epiphysis of accessory bone 113-180 135

Proximal metacarpal epiphysis 145

Distal metacarpal epiphysis II-V 165-240 203

Proximal phalangeal epiphysis I 141

Proximal phalanx proximal epiphysis II-V 131-224 186

Middle phalanx. proximal epiphysis II-V 131-224 183

PELVIS

Acetabulum 112

Ilium 112

Ischium 112

Pubis 112

Tuber ischii 292

HINDLIMB

Femoral head 129-540 320

Femur - greater trochanter 129-540 320

Femur - lesser trochanter 129-360 269

Distal femoral epiphysis 136-392 330

Tibial condyles 143-413 322

Tibial tuberosity 143-435 249

Distal tibial epiphysis 136-495 313

Medial tibial malleolus 138

Proximal fibular epiphysis 136-360 297

Distal fibular epiphysis 136-495 288

Fibular tarsal bone 159

Tarsal bones III and IV 101

Distal metatarsal epiphysis II-V 165-270 217

Proximal phalangeal epiphysis II-V 161-210 187

Middle phalanx - proximal epiphysis II-V 161-210 187

The range of time reported for closure can be quite great making interpretation for any individual animal difficult.

CLICK HERE FOR TABLE 2 - CATS

(Table 1 Modified after Newton. D.M in Textbook of Small Animal Orthopaedics 1985, and used with permission of the Publishers L:ippincott, Williams and Wilkins)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 1999 - 2010 Provet. All rights reserved. Email: [email protected]

[oakway]

The above didn't come out the way I intended it, so here's the link to it.

It is much easier to read on the site.

http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diagnostics...thplatedogs.htm

[Black Bronson]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place.

How about just for pure and simple enjoyment of the dog and the teamwork. Not every dog sports person is or has aspirations to be a breeder. Not every top performance bitch is purebred or comes from a "working" breed either.

Besides seasons are bloody inconvenient if you're seriously campaigning a dog - bitches have no sense of timing. Unlike the show ring, an in season bitch cannot compete in dog sports.

Depends what sport you are into I guess Poodlefan, in my sport they have to be purebred and papered of certain breeds.

[Black Bronson]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

Because there is no guarantee that that the bitch will re produce herself anyway.

If it was a guarantee, all our best bitch would be our best producers.

There will be less guarantee breeding from a bitch that has never been worked or tested which is half the problem. A super male is only half of the equasion and to be honest, a puppy from a good bitch has more influence than the sire IMO.

[Black Bronson]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

But a working dog breeder still gets useful information from the performance of desexed animals, about their "work/sport capabilities" and the sort of offspring their parents are producing.

If someone wants one of our dogs just as a working or trialling animal, and isn't keen and informed on breeding, we'll always suggest desexing, especially for females- usually at 6-9 months. They still get a dog to do the work they need, the management is much easier, and we still find out what sort of dogs we're producing from their feedback. The few occasions that we have a puppy go to a non-working home (pet or agility), we usually ask the owners if they'd at least start them in stockwork so we can get at least some idea how the whole litter have turned out.

Personally, I desex non-breeding dogs at 6-9 months in females because I don't think the growth/development problem is as much an issue in bitches, and because there is the significant benefit of avoiding mammary cancer if you desex before the first season. A friend of mine is a vet and high level agility competitor, and that's what she suggests. With dogs I leave them entire until they give me a reason to de-nut.

Sometimes by the time the dog is showing some good capabilities, the parents are past breeding or may not still be with us. I have seen a couple of good desexed bitches better than their litter mates or repeat breedings that are entire and the dog that should be bred is desexed. There are plenty of brothers and sisters of champion dogs bred that haven't achieved anything and their puppies don't always turn out well. You can sometimes match parents performance but rarely better it. Breeding with a proven dog I think increases the possibility of creating good dogs.

[mjk05]

Breeding with a proven dog I think increases the possibility of creating good dogs.

Personally I'd rather breed from a "proven" dog whose siblings and offspring, desexed as well as entire, are all demonstrating good working ability than one who might be a flash in the pan, or who only has one or two working relatives .

Realistically, if you're breeding a dog for working ability, you have to expect the people buying the pups to want dogs to perform a job- but lots of people who want/need working dogs don't actually want to breed, or don't want the hassle of a bitch in season. What are the alternatives? Encourage every puppy buyer to keep their animals entire and think about breeding? Sell the majority of your performance-bred litter to pet homes? The only reasonable one I think would be to run the whole litter on yourself and then choose the best to keep entire yourself- but not particularly feasible for most breeders.

Generally I think it's a waste of a working-bred dog for it not to be worked, whether it's desexed or not. Isn't the work the whole reason for the breeding?

[sas]

Oakway:

Also we must look at the fact that the puppy is to be a pet/companion dog, if it does grow slightly different, does it really matter, it is a pet after all.

If that "pet" ends up in an athletic performance sport and early desexing is linked to increased risk of HD and CL rupture (as has been suggested) then growing "slightly different" will matter a great deal.

Tubal ligation will protect against unscrupulous breeding as effectively as a full ovo-hysterectomy.

I haven't seen that in Giant Breeds desexed before full maturity, have you seen it in your breed?

In Danes when desexed early they will be more leggy and slimmer generally.

[Greytmate]

Sometimes by the time the dog is showing some good capabilities, the parents are past breeding or may not still be with us. I have seen a couple of good desexed bitches better than their litter mates or repeat breedings that are entire and the dog that should be bred is desexed. There are plenty of brothers and sisters of champion dogs bred that haven't achieved anything and their puppies don't always turn out well. You can sometimes match parents performance but rarely better it. Breeding with a proven dog I think increases the possibility of creating good dogs.

Statistically, you are more likely to get a good worker from a proven producer, not from a good performer that is an unknown producer. Proving a dog as a worker does not mean it is prepotent (is able to pass on that ability genetically), where it has already been proven that its parents can.

Good breeding means that over generations you should end up with better performance, not worse performance or equal performance. If you find it is rare to produce better than the parents, you are probably not as good a breeder as the breeder that bred your dog's parents.

Some of your breeding philosophies match those of racing breeders that overproduce with the stock they have on hand rather than ones that are looking to breed quality over quantity.

If you want to breed, buy a pup and hope it turns out good to breed with, or buy a well-performed adult bitch and breed with that. But I see no reason to encourage pet owners to do the same, unless they actually want to become a breeder. And then they need to be considering a lot more than their own dog's performance before they breed. Please learn more about the science behind performance breeding before advising people to keep pets entire, or deciding to breed with your own bitch.

[Black Bronson]

Sometimes by the time the dog is showing some good capabilities, the parents are past breeding or may not still be with us. I have seen a couple of good desexed bitches better than their litter mates or repeat breedings that are entire and the dog that should be bred is desexed. There are plenty of brothers and sisters of champion dogs bred that haven't achieved anything and their puppies don't always turn out well. You can sometimes match parents performance but rarely better it. Breeding with a proven dog I think increases the possibility of creating good dogs.

Statistically, you are more likely to get a good worker from a proven producer, not from a good performer that is an unknown producer. Proving a dog as a worker does not mean it is prepotent (is able to pass on that ability genetically), where it has already been proven that its parents can.

Good breeding means that over generations you should end up with better performance, not worse performance or equal performance. If you find it is rare to produce better than the parents, you are probably not as good a breeder as the breeder that bred your dog's parents.

Some of your breeding philosophies match those of racing breeders that overproduce with the stock they have on hand rather than ones that are looking to breed quality over quantity.

If you want to breed, buy a pup and hope it turns out good to breed with, or buy a well-performed adult bitch and breed with that. But I see no reason to encourage pet owners to do the same, unless they actually want to become a breeder. And then they need to be considering a lot more than their own dog's performance before they breed. Please learn more about the science behind performance breeding before advising people to keep pets entire, or deciding to breed with your own bitch.

Statistically, in our breed we more likely to get good workers from parents with proven working performance although it's no guarentee. The trend of using a super male over an unproven bitch is where I see many of the problems when trying to improve the breed's performance. The majority in our sport work males, but personally I would like to see more females working and titled to get an idea of the strength of the bitch lines and where they are going. Too many breeders IMHO rely upon a good male to produce offspring from a female who's working performance has never been evaluated.

[mjk05]

The majority in our sport work males, but personally I would like to see more females working and titled to get an idea of the strength of the bitch lines and where they are going. Too many breeders IMHO rely upon a good male to produce offspring from a female who's working performance has never been evaluated.

Sure, that's an argument for training/working all entire bitches (and dogs), I think anyone involved in breeding dogs for work would agree with that- but how does that explain your belief that it's not worth working desexed animals???

Wouldn't you get a much better idea of the bitch lines if all her desexed relatives were trained and worked, as well as the entire ones?