Desexing Females

[nickojoy]

find it quite disturbing that we remove their hormones so young (while understanding why we do it)

Puppies 8-12 weeks bounce back quicker after being desexed than a older 18 month old. You pick the pup up from the vet early afternoon, by dinner time you wouldn't even know that they were desexed, you just need to contain them to a crate so they don't rip their stitches out... Puppies generally don't need pain killers where the older ones do.

If you were going to get the dog desexed as it was a pet and wasn't going to be bred from why would you wait for them to have a season or 2 prior to this happening, can someone explain this please?

[oakway]

find it quite disturbing that we remove their hormones so young (while understanding why we do it)

Puppies 8-12 weeks bounce back quicker after being desexed than a older 18 month old. You pick the pup up from the vet early afternoon, by dinner time you wouldn't even know that they were desexed, you just need to contain them to a crate so they don't rip their stitches out... Puppies generally don't need pain killers where the older ones do.

If you were going to get the dog desexed as it was a pet and wasn't going to be bred from why would you wait for them to have a season or 2 prior to this happening, can someone explain this please?

What nickojoy has told you is the exact truth. I can guarantee it as I have seen the same results.

It appears as though some people are concerned about growth plates etc, (rightly so) but I believe that young dogs should not have this type of exertion

placed upon them.

[poodlefan]

If you were going to get the dog desexed as it was a pet and wasn't going to be bred from why would you wait for them to have a season or 2 prior to this happening, can someone explain this please?

Because you want the hormones that sexual entirity provides to be available to the dog for the full phase of its growth.

We already know that early desexed pups growth plates close later than their undesexed littermates. A quote from one of Dr Zink's papers:

Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. In addition, sex hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4)

These structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless, breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered when considering breeding decisions.

Then there are the other health considerations.. cancer, behavioural issues, increased risk of hypothyroidism.

There are good reasons both for and against early, pre-puberty and late desexing. As a dog breeder or owner, your challenge is to acquaint yourself with the risk involved in each option and make an informed decision about which best suits your particular dog and situation.

A good vet should assist this process, not issue edicts about when it should happen.

Edited May 27, 2010 by poodlefan

[wuffles]

Glad this topic came up

Our Australian Shepherd is coming up on 6 months old and is hopefully going to be a performance dog (obedience, agility). I'm still undecided as to when I'll get her desexed. She does come from lines that have later seasons rather than earlier, but dealing with a season will be very hard on our part (we work full time, she is very very active and would not cope being inside all day, etc).

Originally I was thinking at 8-9 months but have read things suggesting that this may be just as bad as very early desexing. Given she is a medium working breed, is 14 months minimum still recommended?

Any suggestions about how to manage a season with full time workers, a crazy dog, and standard fencing?

[poodlefan]

Originally I was thinking at 8-9 months but have read things suggesting that this may be just as bad as very early desexing. Given she is a medium working breed, is 14 months minimum still recommended?

Yes.

Any suggestions about how to manage a season with full time workers, a crazy dog, and standard fencing?

Yes, find a kennel that provides places for bitches in season.

[pie]

There are good reasons both for and against early, pre-puberty and late desexing. As a dog breeder or owner, your challenge is to acquaint yourself with the risk involved in each option and make an informed decision about which best suits your particular dog and situation.

[tdierikx]

Delayed desexing isn't recommended for competitiveness CW, but to give the dog the best possible chance of obtaining full structural maturity - this assists with maintaining soundness.

Some dog sports folk have their dogs growth plates x-rayed to ensure they have closed before desexing or serious training over obstacles. Growth plates can remain open for far longer than some folk think. It's less of an issue in the smaller breeds though.

There have been studies done that show that growth plates may stay open longer after early desexing, making the long bones (like those in the leg) keep growing for longer. If you are looking to do competitive sports with your dog, then maybe doing the growth plate x-rays may be the best course of action before deciding when to desex - that will ensure that injuries are kept to a minimum...

Excellent advice as usual poodlefan!

T.

[pie]

It appears as though some people are concerned about growth plates etc, (rightly so) but I believe that young dogs should not have this type of exertion

placed upon them.

Oakway for me it is not to do with the exertion on the dog when they are young it is more to do with making sure my dog is as sound as she can be to stand her in good stead for the next 10+ years of physical activity she is likely to partake in, if that makes sense. (The agility clubs I go to are careful about not jumping full height or doing full height obstacles or weavers with dogs under 12 months)

[poodlefan]

Oakway:

It appears as though some people are concerned about growth plates etc, (rightly so) but I believe that young dogs should not have this type of exertion

placed upon them.

And so does any dog sports person with more than one brain cell. However when plates close also affects skeletal structure for the life of the dog.

[oakway]

There are good reasons both for and against early, pre-puberty and late desexing. As a dog breeder or owner, your challenge is to acquaint yourself with the risk involved in each option and make an informed decision about which best suits your particular dog and situation.

poodlefan you beat me to it.

Yes, its up to the individual to decide what is best for you and your dog.

Breeders do not early de sex for no reason. Usually it is in the interest of the dog and the new owner.

We sure don't want to spend all that extra money on de sexing, because we don't get it back I assure you. Well I don't !.

Still charge the same sale price for a pet as before even if it is now de sexed.

[poodlefan]

(The agility clubs I go to are careful about not jumping full height or doing full height obstacles or weavers with dogs under 12 months)

You can't even commence training at our club unless your dog is 14 month old and has passed a basic soundness check.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Well there have been some interesting discussions on desexing lately relating to both dogs and young puppies, but I would like to hear peoples views on desexing bitches.

I am talking about females that go to responsible experienced owners who do not planning on showing or breeding. Perhaps those who plan on competing in dog sport at a serious level.

What do you think?

Should it be done? And if so when?

Do you believe that there are issues related to early desexing?

Large/giant breed females?

What if the bitch is going to performance home? Do you think it makes a difference?

I can only state my opionons and what I do.

I desex all at 10 - 14 weeks before they are rehomes, the studies I ahve looked into and researched have shown no adverse effects.

Obviously the dogs I show are not desexed.

[OSoSwift]

Personally I would not desex before 18 or at least one season - the reason I say this is Rommi had her first seaon at 18 months.

I have the facilities to contain and manage entire dogs of both sexes, never had a mis-mating as yet (I guess there will always potentially be a first time- usually husband or child induced!)

However if the average man on the street asked me I would say 6 months. If I sold puppies it would be 6 months as I would be more concerned about a bitch getting pregnant. I do not have breeds that are high for a BYB so that is not a consideration, if I did then I guess early desexing may be favourable. I personally would not buy a puppy already desexed as I feel strongly about allowing them to have at least one season. Not only for soundness but also to try and stop spey incontinence which I have had in bitches more than once and it isn't much fun.

Our Stafford was castrated at 8, my Dobe was speyed 5, my Rotti was speyed at 8 months and she had already been diagnosed with OCD of the elbows.

[oakway]

I have just realised that nobody has said what happens when a bitch comes in season.

I have always been told that once a bitch comes in season, that's the end of it, no more growth will take place.

A hormone is released into the system and no more growth occurs.

I suppose that's why you hear so may of us breeders saying I wish she would come in season, as the bitch is deciding to have another growth spurt.

So that's it, once your bitch is in season that's the end of growth and only maturity takes place.

[furballs]

My Rottweiler had her first season at nearly 9 months and she was a bit moody and tired for 3 weeks

She is purely a pet and her breeder recommended not to have her done until she's 2. I researched the internet as she didn't give me any reasons and I decided to wait until she's 2 because of the increased risk of Osteosarcoma in desexed Rotts. After all the stories I've read about Rotts having limbs chopped off because of cancer, I don't think I would purchase another one if it was desexed young. I keep her inside when she's in season so there's no risk of her becoming pregnant and she keeps herself very clean so there's no mess. Personnaly I see no reason to desex young if the purchaser is responsible and willing to put up with the seasons.

[furballs]

I have just realised that nobody has said what happens when a bitch comes in season.

I have always been told that once a bitch comes in season, that's the end of it, no more growth will take place.

A hormone is released into the system and no more growth occurs.

I suppose that's why you hear so may of us breeders saying I wish she would come in season, as the bitch is deciding to have another growth spurt.

So that's it, once your bitch is in season that's the end of growth and only maturity takes place.

Mine is still growing and she's 13 months old

[oakway]

I have just realised that nobody has said what happens when a bitch comes in season.

I have always been told that once a bitch comes in season, that's the end of it, no more growth will take place.

A hormone is released into the system and no more growth occurs.

I suppose that's why you hear so may of us breeders saying I wish she would come in season, as the bitch is deciding to have another growth spurt.

So that's it, once your bitch is in season that's the end of growth and only maturity takes place.

Mine is still growing and she's 13 months old

At what age did she come in season?.

[Black Bronson]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would use a desexed female for performance/sport in the first place. A sporting female IMHO should be trained in work/sport as a proofing foundation that the line is work/sport capable and then used for the breeding of a proven and titled bitch. To concentrate on the training of a desexed performance/sporting/working dog is a real shame in the sense that if the dog turns out well, it cannot be reproduced or contribute to improved gene pools.

[furballs]

Any suggestions about how to manage a season with full time workers, a crazy dog, and standard fencing?

Keep her indoors if you can or maybe a kennel run?

[furballs]

I have just realised that nobody has said what happens when a bitch comes in season.

I have always been told that once a bitch comes in season, that's the end of it, no more growth will take place.

A hormone is released into the system and no more growth occurs.

I suppose that's why you hear so may of us breeders saying I wish she would come in season, as the bitch is deciding to have another growth spurt.

So that's it, once your bitch is in season that's the end of growth and only maturity takes place.

Mine is still growing and she's 13 months old

At what age did she come in season?.

9 months