Desexing Females

[Red Fox]

Well there have been some interesting discussions on desexing lately relating to both dogs and young puppies, but I would like to hear peoples views on desexing bitches.

I am talking about females that go to responsible experienced owners who do not planning on showing or breeding. Perhaps those who plan on competing in dog sport at a serious level.

What do you think?

Should it be done? And if so when?

Do you believe that there are issues related to early desexing?

Large/giant breed females?

What if the bitch is going to performance home? Do you think it makes a difference?

[poodlefan]

If I wanted a bitch for dog sports, I'd be letting her have one season prior to desexing.

Most of my dog sports friends do this.

ETA: Dr Christine Zink recommends no performance dog be desexed before 14 months.

Edited May 27, 2010 by poodlefan

[ness]

I waited until my girl had 1 season prior to desexing. She came into season at 8.5 months and was desexed around 13 months. I'd have preferred to hold out slightly later but there was worry that she might have been gearing up to come back in again based on her behavior so I opted to get her done on the logic that she came into season early so would have been finished growing anyway. I think the recommendation is around 14 months.

She is destined to be an agility performance dog and I wonder if it hasn't helped with the height she will end up jumping. She is just into the top end of 400 with a few mm to spare so in her case I think we might have been lucky. Although hard to know the rest of her littermates were small anyway and the girls were all allowed to have a season or two as the breeder was running her sisters on.

Not sure if it was of any benefit or not but it didn't seem to cause to many issues.

[Red Fox]

Okay, so what if the bitch is of a larger breed? Say a Dobermann or a Rottie. Would you still desex after the first season or would you wait until the bitch was mature first?

eta, just saw your edit PF

Edited May 27, 2010 by SecretKei

[ness]

Yep that is what I was working on poodlefan when I made my decision but didn't really want a second season.

[W Sibs]

Interesting read on desexing lately... I've never ever own an entire dog/bitch before ever, and I won't be starting any day soon.

For me... I'm getting Emmy desexed before she's 6 months. I have an agreement with the breeder. Also, because her mum came into heat early too. I don't want to deal with a female dog in heat. It also ease my mind that she won't ever have any accident either.

She is solely going to be pet... no showing, no breeding. But, I will put her into dog sports but I don't care if she wins or anything, as long as we are having fun together.

[Red Fox]

Thats fair enough CW EW

What to people think about tubal ligation (sp?) as opposed to desexing?

[poodlefan]

She is solely going to be pet... no showing, no breeding. But, I will put her into dog sports but I don't care if she wins or anything, as long as we are having fun together.

Delayed desexing isn't recommended for competitiveness CW, but to give the dog the best possible chance of obtaining full structural maturity - this assists with maintaining soundness.

Some dog sports folk have their dogs growth plates x-rayed to ensure they have closed before desexing or serious training over obstacles. Growth plates can remain open for far longer than some folk think. It's less of an issue in the smaller breeds though.

Edited May 27, 2010 by poodlefan

[Diva]

Okay, so what if the bitch is of a larger breed?

Well my large/tall breed typically doesn't come into a first season until 12 months anyway. They can come in earlier of course but of the 2 I have now one was 13 months for her first season and the second was 22 months for her first. The 22 months while at the extreme of the nomal range is still not that unusual for the breed.

As a rule of thumb I'd leave desexing to 18 months for a very large breed bitch I intended to train for sport, if it's safe to do so (safe in terms of no unplanned matings), but it does depend a bit on the individual. I also figure Chrisitine Zink knows her stuff.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Diva

[oakway]

Ok lets discuss early de sexing and it's out come.

Firstly I have seen many early de sexing's and their out come was nothing different to late de sexing.

This is of course, with pure bred dogs.

Giant breeds I am not fully familiar with but believe the breeders when they say NO early de sexing. Who would know better than the breeders.

I do believe that a lot of old wives tales does get associated with it.

We all know that to protect our precious breed from the unscrupulous BYB's it some times necessary to early de sex.

Some say that their breed gets small and squat others say they grow tall and lanky. I say, who is to say that is the way the dog may have ended up anyway.

I have bred many over sized whippets that were not de sexed.

Also we must look at the fact that the puppy is to be a pet/companion dog, if it does grow slightly different, does it really matter, it is a pet after all.

Then we have the advantages of know that by de sexing we are not contributing to more unwanted puppies.

I, personally have never hear an owner or vet say that the dogs health has been effected by early de sexing.

I also believe that you only get out of a dog what you put into it.

What, with today's available dog foods I can see nothing but a healthy future for our dogs, provided that we have sensible owners that use the foods available correctly.

I do believe that the time will come when all pet puppies must be de sexed.

Please don't say it won't happen, that was said about tail docking and look what happened there.

[Greytmate]

She is solely going to be pet... no showing, no breeding. But, I will put her into dog sports but I don't care if she wins or anything, as long as we are having fun together.

Delayed desexing isn't recommended for competitiveness CW, but to give the dog the best possible chance of obtaining full structural maturity - this assists with maintaining soundness.

Some dog sports folk have their dogs growth plates x-rayed to ensure they have closed before desexing or serious training over obstacles. Growth plates can remain open for far longer than some folk think. It's less of an issue in the smaller breeds though.

Racing dogs of both sexes are kept entire for two reasons. It is thought to increase competitiveness, and if the dog is really successful it should be used for breeding. You will not really know that until the dog is at least two years of age. The issue of structural maturity is not as important or unimportant to many participants unfortunately.

That is serious dog sport.

If the dog is being purchased as a pet with sport only as a hobby, the owner may have different priorities.

[W Sibs]

She is solely going to be pet... no showing, no breeding. But, I will put her into dog sports but I don't care if she wins or anything, as long as we are having fun together.

Delayed desexing isn't recommended for competitiveness CW, but to give the dog the best possible chance of obtaining full structural maturity - this assists with maintaining soundness.

Some dog sports folk have their dogs growth plates x-rayed to ensure they have closed before desexing or serious training over obstacles. Growth plates can remain open for far longer than some folk think. It's less of an issue in the smaller breeds though.

Interesting...

But, I think I'm still going to give Emmy a go at doing flyball and agility... just to see if she likes it, despite how old she gets desexed. I'm still new with it all this dog sport thingy, and it looks like something fun Emmy and I could do together

[Serket]

I've got an 11 month old Golden Retriever bitch who just came into season for the 2nd time 2 days ago (sigh). She came in at 6 months on the dot in the first week of January, and now she's back in again already, it's annoying, since I was hoping to get to around 18 months with only one season, maybe two, but she's got other ideas, it seems. Her mum came in at 6 months too, so I shouldn't have been surprised.

Ideally I only wanted one, max. 2 seasons before desexing (after extensive research into the health (cancer) argument vs. letting them mature for health (joints) argument), but now I'm not sure whether to keep waiting or get it done once she's done with this one. She's not too messy, so I don't mind so much about that but it's a pain not being able to take her out for a few weeks.

I'll be doing agility with her, she's bloody *FAST* and she loves it (we do some tunnels and poles on the ground already, not actual jumps or weaves). She's on the smaller leaner side (under 25kg) and she hasn't grown for months, so I think this is it, but she's probably got some filling out to do still and growth plates still open

Her breeder was 100% supportive of not desexing @ 6 months in any case, and recommends waiting until 12 months generally regardless of plans for agility etc, and she's said that she is happy for me to wait as long as I feel necessary. I was quite surprised, actually, and glad I found an understanding breeder who trusted us to do the right thing (she might say different things to different puppy people though, I suppose).

If tubal ligation was an option, I'd have done it, no intention to breed but just want her to finish growing up properly, I find it quite disturbing that we remove their hormones so young (while understanding why we do it)

Edited May 27, 2010 by Serket

[Diva]

We all know that to protect our precious breed from the unscrupulous BYB's it some times necessary to early de sex.

That is true of course and the reason I'd never bag early desexing.

I do still think it's better to leave the very large breeds a bit later if it's safe to do so and especially if it's a sport dog. Not always possible for other reasons and that's fair enough. But it would take a lot of very compelling reasons for me to desex at an early age a bitch of my very tall, disproportionately predisposed to osteosarcoma, breed

Edited May 27, 2010 by Diva

[poodlefan]

Oakway:

Also we must look at the fact that the puppy is to be a pet/companion dog, if it does grow slightly different, does it really matter, it is a pet after all.

If that "pet" ends up in an athletic performance sport and early desexing is linked to increased risk of HD and CL rupture (as has been suggested) then growing "slightly different" will matter a great deal.

Tubal ligation will protect against unscrupulous breeding as effectively as a full ovo-hysterectomy.

Edited May 27, 2010 by poodlefan

[Diva]

Interesting...

But, I think I'm still going to give Emmy a go at doing flyball and agility... just to see if she likes it, despite how old she gets desexed. I'm still new with it all this dog sport thingy, and it looks like something fun Emmy and I could do together

CW EW I very much doubt the age you get her desexed now is going to affect Emmy at all, she is already past the very early desexing ages and the kind of breeds that I'd be concerned about doing before a season would be four times Emmy's size at maturity. Just have fun!

Edited May 27, 2010 by Diva

[oakway]

I find it quite disturbing that we remove their hormones so young (while understanding why we do it)

I honestly believe that none of us like doing early de sexing, I personally don't, and neither do some of the vets, but with some unscrupulous

people that can obtain our breeding, it appears that it may be the only way of stopping it.

Lets face it no matter how many contracts we have signed by new owners, unless we know where they are, there is not much we can do about enforcing the contracts.

Limited register does don't stop people breeding with our stock, it just means the puppies can not be registered.

Keeping dogs in partnerships does not stop breeding taking place, again it only means that the puppies can not be registered.

The average breeder can not afford to try and take the offending owner to court as the cost is just to great.

[WreckitWhippet]

The breeder in me, says desex, desex, desex as I never want to see any of mine end up BYB, puppy farm dogs or the like and therefore the earlier they are desexed and before the first season, means there's no chance of that happening.

There is no difference between desexing a pup at 8 weeks and a pup at 6 months, neither are mature in terms of structure, so there fore if you are going to desex before maturity, it matters little when it's done.

Then there's the flip side for me, where I want to see every pedigree dog reach it's full potential in terms of development and maturity. Poodlefan has already pointed out the serious sports competitors feelings on the subject and how they ( and those who have studied early desexing ) feel the dogs beneift from delaying neutering/speying. I feel the benefits are not just limited to the performance dogs and certainly the average pet would too be better off desexed upon maturity.

Just from the preliminary observations of the MDBA study, it looks like there may be some areas that some serious study could be undertaken regarding desexing and links to HD.

My head tells me the longer you can delay the desexing of a dog or bitch the better. There is the risk of pyometra in bitches but one would hope they can make it through one or two seasons without this occuring. My head and heart tell me that I and others should be looking out for and protecting the future of any pups we produce , by making sure they are desexed.

To sum it up, in a home where the owner can responsibly manage an entire animal and is comfortable doing so, they should be left entire, where that's not the case, it's probably best all round that the do desex ASAP. Where gianst and large breeds are concerned, they should be directed by their breeder.

[oakway]

Oakway:

Also we must look at the fact that the puppy is to be a pet/companion dog, if it does grow slightly different, does it really matter, it is a pet after all.

If that "pet" ends up in an athletic performance sport and early desexing is linked to increased risk of HD and CL rupture (as has been suggested) then growing "slightly different" will matter a great deal.

Tubal ligation will protect against unscrupulous breeding as effectively as a full ovo-hysterectomy.

I agree with you totally.

But please remember tubal ligation is easily reversed.

But like young horses, should young dogs be doing this type of work.

Remember young racing dogs do little or nothing till they are 12 months of age.

Other than a few minutes of fun should these dogs (performance) be doing any kind of work that would put exertion on the joints weather de sexed or not.

[pie]

Trixie was purchased for pet / dog sport purposes, she is 10 months old and is in season now (ugh! ) She's a small dog (~10kg)

My intention has always been to delay desexing until at least 18 months, for growth/developmental purposes and also because I believe it decreases the risks of spay incontinence. I don't really want to leave it any longer than that though because the Pyometra risks worry me. So I personally am comfortable with desexing at the 18 month mark, I'd say she will have had 2 seasons by then.

I'm finding it annoying having her in season though, can't take her out to training or anywhere for that matter and she's getting restless! Poor little prisoner Not to mention the mess and smell - blerk. But it's not unmanageable, just inconvenient, would probably be more stressful if my dog was entire.

I personally would not buy a puppy that had already been desexed. But I also come from the angle of having breeds that aren't popular with BYB.