What Age To Desex?

[Nekhbet]

testosterone is NOT the only and overwhelming factor in aggression. The dogs drives, breeding and environment contribute way more. Unless the dog has a hideous overdose of testosterone pumping about its system (which sometimes happens, you will see testicle size be well over that for a dog its age) then the argument is null and void. Dogs get attacked because the other dogs are either untrained/aggressive or your own dog is giving off poor body language which gets other dogs on edge. I have an entire male I use with aggressive dogs as he is calm and simply doesnt care. Other dog goes off, he turns around and ignores them.

Vets are not taught anything different in vet school. Many still think entire dogs will be aggressive and nasty - UNTRUE. They still think desexing will fix behavioral problems ... UNTRUE. You should take the advice of breeders and experienced trainers over a general veterinarian. If you think there is a high risk of your dog mating or escaping - fix your fences and get him a vascectomy. I desexed my rottweiler at under 12 months and I regret it a lot. I should have left him entire for his bone and muscle development.

I think what worries me most is all the "horror" stories you hear of how entire dogs act (eg. marking, humping, aggression)

those behaviors are environmental as well as coupled with poor training on the owners behalf (or lets have a laugh when the dog starts, it's funny etc etc). No more horror stories then the average person who puts in little to no effort with their dog desexed or not. And trust me I see a lot of dogs desexed and have problems so hormones are not the factor here.

I wouldnt desex a lab under 12 months. If he's too much to handle that is not the hormones, that is the dog itself. Train it, dont use surgery as a magic bullet.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Nekhbet

[lovemesideways]

testosterone is NOT the only and overwhelming factor in aggression. The dogs drives, breeding and environment contribute way more. Unless the dog has a hideous overdose of testosterone pumping about its system (which sometimes happens, you will see testicle size be well over that for a dog its age) then the argument is null and void. Dogs get attacked because the other dogs are either untrained/aggressive or your own dog is giving off poor body language which gets other dogs on edge. I have an entire male I use with aggressive dogs as he is calm and simply doesnt care. Other dog goes off, he turns around and ignores them.

Vets are not taught anything different in vet school. Many still think entire dogs will be aggressive and nasty - UNTRUE. They still think desexing will fix behavioral problems ... UNTRUE. You should take the advice of breeders and experienced trainers over a general veterinarian. If you think there is a high risk of your dog mating or escaping - fix your fences and get him a vascectomy. I desexed my rottweiler at under 12 months and I regret it a lot. I should have left him entire for his bone and muscle development.

I think what worries me most is all the "horror" stories you hear of how entire dogs act (eg. marking, humping, aggression)

those behaviors are environmental as well as coupled with poor training on the owners behalf (or lets have a laugh when the dog starts, it's funny etc etc). No more horror stories then the average person who puts in little to no effort with their dog desexed or not. And trust me I see a lot of dogs desexed and have problems so hormones are not the factor here.

I wouldnt desex a lab under 12 months. If he's too much to handle that is not the hormones, that is the dog itself. Train it, dont use surgery as a magic bullet.

Exactly what I've been thinking.

People use different things as excuses for a dogs behaviour, and being entire is one of them.

"He's chewed up my house!" Oh well hes a labrador!

"He's just so yappy and won't ever stop barking!" Well thats all SWF's for you!

And again, "He's really 'dominant and aggressive'" Well get him desexed, that will fix it.

It will be fun to have a calm, relaxed and completely chilled out entire labrador, to break the stereotype completely ..

[noisymina]

It will be fun to have a calm, relaxed and completely chilled out entire labrador, to break the stereotype completely ..

I can't comment on this in particular - specially since most of the dogs I've had ahve been females.

But just to comment on that one.........

I took Kaisie in at 4 years of age. Mature, right? Desexed sometime in her first year.

And a total nut case when she arrived. Into everyting -running around like a lunatic, including head on INTO trees. And taking off in fright if I picked up a broom or hose - let alone the vacuum.

Nearly 2 years ago - she is 11 now - our wonderful NEW vet commented on how relaxed and laid back she is!

Same dog - same hormones - different owner.

She certainly breaks the sterotype of the Dobermann.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I have one ( two testes) of my dogs testes on top of the fridge ( in a jar) as a display for people who want to see dogs testes!!

OR a threat to anyone else who pisses me off in the house! lol

[bedazzledx2]

I would think that prostrate cancer would be more of a risk. I had my BC desexed at 8 yrs as the decision not to breed had been made and I wanted to avoid the risk of prostate cancer as I knew it was a risk factor.

i have a small/medium breed dog and i would have preferred to wait until 9 - 12 months to desex BUT she had an inguinal hernia that needed operating on. after discussion with the vet on the urgency of the hernia op i made the decision to desex her earlier and fix the hernia and desex in the one operation so i left it as late as i could and the ops were done when she was 6 months.

there are equally a lot of opinions on when to desex bitches. some say that if the bitch is desexed prior to their first season it reduces the risk of mammary cancer and desexing male dogs removes the risk of testicular cancer.

in the end all we can do is to do what we think best for our dogs

Small/medium dogs are believed to mature earlier than large dogs and apparantly doesn't impact as dramatically desexing at 6 months. Desexing does eliminate the risk of testiclular cancer in the male dog, but I don't know how risky testicular cancer is likely to occur. I guess a mastectomy would reduce the risk of breast cancer......but where is the line

a bit OT but now that they have found the gene some women who are in high risk groups are doing just that.

i would be curious to know the incidence of testicular cancer in entire male dogs as it is critical in eveluating the risk.

yep i wasnt too worried about getting my girl desexed at 6 months although if she was a large breed i would have done 2 seperate ops.

[bedazzledx2]

It depends on the males. My BC was desexed late and for many years we had no issues. My entire Aussie is the lowest in the pack including the cats! He is happy to be there and has never tried to vie for the top dog position. This suits us all. We had a small rumble after the lower ranking male was mated but that was something I was prepared for and stopped immediately. I can bring both dogs into mixed company and there is no way they would start a fight but my BC won't stand to be challenged. This is where the owners have to be diligent and watch for any eyeballing and avoid confrontations before they get out of hand.

My male elkhound was desexed at 6 months (medium breed), so was my female goldy. My goldy does look taller and leaner compared to other goldies, but there is no discernible difference in my male dog compared to other elkies.

I do have a question about entire male dogs though. Every single entire male dog I have seen in dog parks ends up getting into fights with other males. Particularly if there are two entire male dogs around. Do entire males bring out aggressiveness in other male dogs? Do they tend to be more aggressive towards other males, including other entire male dogs?

Would anyone here leave two entire male dogs unsupervised for a whole day if they know each other very well?

[FHRP]

Would anyone here leave two entire male dogs unsupervised for a whole day if they know each other very well?

I have three entire males who spend the day together while I'm at work

None of my male dogs are desexed 'as a matter of course'. If there becomes a need to desex, then it's done, either surgically or chemically. If I had a young male showing undesirable traits that were not responding to reasonable training, then I wouldn't hesitate to desex him if I thought it would help. Thankfully, I've never been in that situation.

lovemesideways, from your posts you seem like an informed, responsible dog owner who is committed to training your boy. In that case if asked directly, I would recommend you wait until your dog is physically mature before desexing. If Joe Blogs over the fence who had no idea about dog behaviour and had no desire to train their dog in any way asked my opinion, I'd probably tell them to get their dog done at 6 months.

I have a group of dog training friends that I walk my boys with after traiing regularly. Between us it's not uncommen to have 6+ entire males running together. If there's a spat between any of the dogs, 99% of the time it involves desexed bitches only!! I have had people comment that their desexed dog doesn't like entire dogs, but I'm sorry, that's not my fault! It's their training issue. However, as I usually avoid dog parks due to the abundance of idiot owners, it's really not an issue with my dogs anyway

[FHRP]

I would think that prostrate cancer would be more of a risk. I had my BC desexed at 8 yrs as the decision not to breed had been made and I wanted to avoid the risk of prostate cancer as I knew it was a risk factor.

Actually, there are studies that show that prostate cancer is more likely in desexed dogs. However, dogs that are desexed do not develop benign prostatic hyperplasia which is a hormone-dependent disorder, relying on testosterone.

[Danois]

I agree with stormie's posts - its a good balance of the 'medical' side of it as well as personal experience.

I recently desexed my giant breed male at 22 months. While he seemed to handle sexual maturity well (and I even had a behavourist comment that they could not believe he was a nearly 2 year old entire male) - it was the reaction of other dogs to him which finally made me get it done. The older he got the more hassling he got from other males - which he was starting to react to. This meant off lead time was no longer enjoyable for both of us.

I think what worries me most is all the "horror" stories you hear of how entire dogs act (eg. marking, humping, aggression) b

(snipped)

My male will mark outside - but then again I never stopped the behaviour but has never marked inside and would not dare! Never had any humping. Never had aggression but as I said above, the more he matured the more he was willing to stand his ground.

He was an easy dog as he matured but I know others who have not had such an easy time.

It comes down to your willingness to step up the leadership and ability to handle an entire dog and also your savvyness at handling situations like off lead spaces and the interactions.

[chelle~aussie~dragon]

I got my dog Dragon at age 4 but didn't get him desexed untill he was 6 as I always hopeful I could show him.Age 6 decided it was never going to happen and he hasn't changed at all from before to after.

[rotts4ever]

BB what do you think of the school of thought that it reduces/eliminates the risk of testicular cancer

Here is part of an article I found about health risk and benefits I found interesting.

I prefer to let my Rotts Mature before desexing, at least 12 months old or more. If there was a temperament issue involved then maybe I would advise early desexing. In my breed I don't believe they really reach their full popential if desexed too early.

Cheers Lee

An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the longterm health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neuter correlates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject. On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs

o eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer

o reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders

o reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

o may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs

o if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) by a factor of 3.8; this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.

o increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds

o triples the risk of hypothyroidism

o increases the risk of geriatric cognitive impairment

o triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems

o quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer

o doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers

o increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

o increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

Female Dogs

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

o if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs

o nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs

o reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

o removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

o if done before maturity, increases the risk of osteosarcoma by a factor of 3.1; this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis

o increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds

o triples the risk of hypothyroidism

o increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems

o causes urinary "spay incontinence" in 4-20% of female dogs

o increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4

o increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty

o doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors

o increases the risk of orthopedic disorders

o increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or (perhaps in the case of many male dogs) foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary. The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.

[Dame Aussie]

I own a large breed too and breeders advise was not before 9 month (preferably longer).

I dont like the idea of desexing before the dog is mature. (unless the dog is a rescue or there are other valid reasons for it). I dont have any great scientific study to back that up but it just doesn't sit well with me.

Surely hormones are important in any animals development?

This is how I feel..

But then why does a vet say 6 months.

its confusing!!!!

Yep, every vet I've been to has been the same. They don't even want to go into a discussion about the pros and cons. Screw em, do what you think is right, it's your dog.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Aussie3

[OSoSwift]

I agree that vets say 6 months because then they will not have people having a bitch who has a season and falls pregnant because they have no idea what needs to happen, or do not have the facilites to keep a bitch contained.

I have the facilites to have entire dogs so to me there is no problem, but many people who brought dogs in had it recommened to have them desexed by 6 months as if they didn't there would be babies having babies.

I guess the average Jo Blow is not like the majority of us on DOL.

I tell my vet what I am doing - if they ask, which they don't - and if they tried to tell me that I HAD to desex my dog at 6 momths they would get a flea in their ear.

I am not the person with miss mated bitches and the one dumping puppies.

[kimbo83]

Well someone forgot to tell our GS that if he was done early he would not develop properly, he was de-sexed at 6 months and still grew into a hulk like 60kg german shepherd. (and he is purebred, with papers and no he is not over weight) Health wise he is now 11 and showing signs of problems in being such a large dog, other than that his health is fine. Do we regret him being desexed, umm NO!

Each to their own..............

I feel better reading this. I had my 7mth British bulldog pup spay at the same time he had xrays. I heard and read before about not doing to early otherwise affects growth and development but I never really looked into further. Before the op I asked two different vets their opinion and they both said it wouldn't matter. His currently 17kgs at 7mths so I'd say more solid then most bullies his age. I did some reading over the net last night and it has concerned me that most people advise not before 12 mths. Also I noticed that it relates more to giant breeds but what about bulldogs and the huge muscle they develop?

[lovemesideways]

Oh look its my old thread!

Not sure about Bulldogs.

My boy is still entire, and fantastic. I decided he's going to stay entire until probably a year or maybe longer.

[KOE]

the desexed boys here except for Oliver were done a lot younger than 6 months and they are normal well adjusted dogs same size as litter mates that are whole, but they dont p@ss on everything and do not want to brawl with any dog even when pushed.

but it is your animal so you do it when you feel it is right.

PSSSS Oliver was done at 6 years as I show him and his father and litter brother both had prostate and I want him to have a long healthy life,

[rubiton]

I just had too reply !!

Mastectomy may reduce the risk of Breast cancer BUT silicone implants then up it again lol

You are correct Wazzat. What are your thoughts on testicular cancer in dog's, have you experienced it???.

Having no testicles myself No ( Although my old boss thinks I have em!)

I personally desex all dogs if they are not being used for breeding by myslef, although I have heard

That most malignant prostatic tumors in dogs occur in desexed dogs and desexing your dog puts him at risk for one of the worst cancers they can get. You can remove the very slight risk of testicular cancer in desexed dogs, that's a small matter; the incidence of testicular cancer is so minimal. I have read a large number of testicular cancers in dogs are benign.

But this is only what i have read on the net, I myself am a desex em if your not using them person and will continue this as I have had no problems in the past with my choices.

It will be an ongoing debate and there are both good and not so good for both realms of thought

You also remove the risk of adanomas (or could be adenomas) - nasty lumps that appear under their tail and ulcerate and you have to get them removed and have an entire dog on the right amount of female hormones or they come back. Unless people like the idea of having their older dog operated on into their teens.

You also remove one reason for the dog to be stolen - entire good lookin dogs are a target and people on here have written about it happening.

[Staranais]

Why am I getting told different things by everyone I ask then!

Lots of reasons.

Because the research is contradictory & we're not yet sure exactly what early desexing does in many cases (some effects are known, but others are just conjecture at this stage).

Because some vets left vet school a long time ago and aren't necessarily up with the latest research (hence they may not know about the issues associated with early desexing, the same way that some vets are apparently still unaware of the risks of vaccination).

Because different people put different values on the known pluses and minuses of early desexing (e.g., rescue organisations often encourage people to desex as soon as possible, since they see far too many "oops" litters).

If it were my own personal dog, I'd do him after 12 - 18 months, if at all. If I were desexing a female, I'd probably leave it as long as I could before her first heat (as far as you can guess) - as far as I have researched, this timing is IMO the best compromise between increasing risk of mammary cancer & decreased risk of spay incontinence, which are the two most common negative side effects connected with early desexing in bitches. In rotties & other breeds very predisposed to osteosarcoma, I think you can make a good case for leaving it even later.

Unless I learn more between now & then, this is what I will most often be advising my smart looking clients to do when I graduate (you know, the clients who look like they are going to be able to prevent their dog breeding willy nilly. The clients who look like they won't make any effort to prevent unwanted puppies might just get advised to desex their dogs a little earlier...)

ETA: oh, I just saw your decision. Didn't realise this thread was an old one!

Edited July 24, 2010 by Staranais

[hoffpig]

I'd go with the vet and desex early, but he's your dog and it's your decision.

[lovemesideways]

Why am I getting told different things by everyone I ask then!

Lots of reasons.

Because the research is contradictory & we're not yet sure exactly what early desexing does in many cases (some effects are known, but others are just conjecture at this stage).

Because some vets left vet school a long time ago and aren't necessarily up with the latest research (hence they may not know about the issues associated with early desexing, the same way that some vets are apparently still unaware of the risks of vaccination).

Because different people put different values on the known pluses and minuses of early desexing (e.g., rescue organisations often encourage people to desex as soon as possible, since they see far too many "oops" litters).

If it were my own personal dog, I'd do him after 12 - 18 months, if at all. If I were desexing a female, I'd probably leave it as long as I could before her first heat (as far as you can guess) - as far as I have researched, this timing is IMO the best compromise between increasing risk of mammary cancer & decreased risk of spay incontinence, which are the two most common negative side effects connected with early desexing in bitches. In rotties & other breeds very predisposed to osteosarcoma, I think you can make a good case for leaving it even later.

Unless I learn more between now & then, this is what I will most often be advising my smart looking clients to do when I graduate (you know, the clients who look like they are going to be able to prevent their dog breeding willy nilly. The clients who look like they won't make any effort to prevent unwanted puppies might just get advised to desex their dogs a little earlier...)

ETA: oh, I just saw your decision. Didn't realise this thread was an old one!

Yeah. Old thread someone pulled up!

He's not getting desexed till at least 12 months, and then I'm not sure when I'll do it :D

I'd go with the vet and desex early, but he's your dog and it's your decision.

Why would you desex early? If you don't mind me asking!