Help Needed

[tlc]

I was under the impression that UTI's and Crystals in the bladder do not always go hand in hand?? When Cooper had the blood in his urine last year the first thing they tested for was a UTI and there was none.

[Turkey Trip]

Well I'm no expert on bladder stones and only know what worked in this case, but found this (see quote & links below - may have to copy & paste the last part of link if it wraps ) quite informative:

B-Naturals Newsletter - November 2009

Struvite and Calcium Oxalate Urinary Stones and Crystals

By Lew Olson, PhD Natural Health

Link:

http://b.ss36.on9mail.com//new/en_send_pre...597&N\

ewsletterID=492162&EmailID=71125528

“Quote:

There are a variety of stones and crystals that can affect our dogs. I often get

inquiries on how to treat stones when diagnosed during a veterinarian visit. The

first question I ask is, "What type of crystal or stones was found?" Each type

of crystal or stone is addressed in two very different approaches.

Struvites

These are most commonly caused by urinary tract infections. Bacteria in the

urine cause alkaline urine (high pH) which creates the perfect environment for

struvite crystals to develop. When struvite crystals are found in a urinalysis

done at your veterinarian's office, the next step is to have your vet do a

sterile urine culture and sensitivity test. This test is done in house at the

vet's office. The urine is collected in a sterile manner and sent off to a lab

to grow and identify the bacteria that is present. This provides the information

on which antibiotic would be the best choice. Usually the antibiotic is given

for a month and then another culture is done when the dog has been off the

antibiotics for ten days to make sure the infection is gone. Once the infection

is gone, the urine returns to a normal pH and the problem is resolved. Keep

alert to any symptoms that a UTI has returned. The symptoms could include

frequent urination, blood seen in the urine or pain upon urination. Always take

your dog to your veterinarian should any of these symptoms occur.

Diet changes aren't helpful for this problem, as most often the struvites are

responding to bacteria in the urinary tract.

For more information, please visit this website:

http://vettechs.blogspot.com/2005/05/so-yo...-struvites.html

Calcium Oxalates

These are most common in dogs over five years old and most frequently seen in

males. It is common in certain breeds, such as Miniature Schnauzers, Miniature

Poodles, Yorkshire Terriers, Bison Frises, Lhasa Apsos and Shih Tzus. It is

thought this may be a genetic condition that causes a lack nephorcalin, which

inhibits calcium oxalates from developing.

Steroids can aggravate a calcium oxalate former which can create more calcium

excretion in the urine. Cushing's disease may also lead to calcium oxalate stone

formation, as the increased cortisol production causes calcium excretion. Other

medications to avoid for dogs prone to calcium oxalates besides steroids include

furosemid, also known as lasix.

Symptoms can include difficulty in urinating, blood in the urine, inability to

urinate in a steady flow or even increased urination. With any of these

symptoms, please have a complete check up on your dog by your veterinarian.

Unlike struvites, diet changes can be helpful for dogs prone to oxalates. The

primary foods that contain oxalates are grains and vegetables. Since dog foods

are primarily grains, the best way to achieve a good diet is to offer a homemade

diet. In this way, the ingredients and quality of the foods can be monitored.

Foods to avoid would include barley, corn, brown rice, wheat, soy, most beans,

potatoes, sweet potatoes, spinach and nuts.

Foods that can be fed include all meat, dairy (no flavoring or sweeteners, NOT

soy based), eggs, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, white rice, canned pumpkin, and

meat and fish broths. Some sources can vary on assessing the oxalate content of

food, so compare several lists. Some charts of low oxalate vs. high oxalate

foods are listed here:

http://www.ohf.org/docs/Oxalate2008.pdf

http://www.lowoxalate.info/food_lists/cat_lod_food_chart.pdf

A good proportion to feed would be approximately 65% to 75% animal protein, and

25% to 35% carbohydrate (vegetables listed above or white rice). Approximate

feeding amounts are 2% to 3% of the dog's body weight daily. On average, a 100

lb. dog would get 2 to 3 lbs. of food daily (approximately 4 to 6 cups), a 50

lb. dog would get 1 to 1 to 1-1/2 lbs. daily (2 to 3 cups) and a 25 lb. dog

would get 8 oz. to 12 oz. daily (1 to 1 ½ cups). You would also need to add

calcium carbonate, at a rate of about 900 mg per pound of food served.

Calcium can be another issue for calcium oxalate formers. While it is uncertain

whether or not calcium will create problems, it is know that calcium excretion

in the urine can form crystals and stones, so it is suggested to avoid foods

that are high in calcium. Additionally, the medications listed above that can

cause calcium excretion in the urine should also be avoided. You may add some

yogurt or cottage cheese, but only as a small part of the diet, not as main

ingredient. You will need to add calcium to diet, but use a calcium carbonate

supplement WITHOUT vitamin D. Vitamin D increases the intake of calcium.

A sample diet for a 25 lb. dog for one day (divided into two meals) might be:

¾ cup cooked hamburger

2 eggs

1 tablespoon yogurt

4 oz steamed and mashed cauliflower

Another sample diet might be:

¾ cup cooked chicken breast

4 oz chicken heart

1 tablespoon cottage cheese

4 oz white rice

You may use meat portions for these recipes that your dog enjoys. The same would

apply for the smaller ratio of carbohydrate choices. Be sure to use variety

foods and avoid getting 'stuck in a rut' using the same type of meat or

carbohydrate over and over.

Meat suggestions include ground beef, ground chicken, ground turkey, ground

pork, baked white fish, beef, chicken, pork or turkey heart and lamb.

Carbohydrates to use include white rice, Brussel Sprouts, canned pumpkin, green

peas, white cabbage, zucchini, acorn squash, Bok Choy, melon and egg noodles,

Do COOK (boil, not steam) all vegetables (and the rice) before serving. Cooking

is thought to reduce some of the oxalate content, and raw vegetables contain a

higher oxalate value on most oxalate food level charts.

Additional supplements would include EPA fish oil capsules, at one per ten lbs

of body weight daily, and a B complex vitamin.

Additional Methods to Help Resolve Crystals and Stones

Both struvite and calcium oxalates prevention require having water available

around the clock and a moist diet to help flush the crystals. This would include

offering water around the clock, giving treats of beef or chicken broth and

allowing the dog many opportunities to urinate during the day. All of this helps

to flush the crystals and keep the dog hydrated. Holding urine or water can

cause increases of crystal formation, leading to stone formation.

B Vitamins are thought to help fight crystal development and EPA fish oil (omega

3 fatty acids) are renal protective.

Treats can be offered in the form of baked liver, hard boiled eggs and jerky

treats. Do avoid grain laden dog treats if your dog is prone to calcium

oxalates.

Continuous monitoring of your dog's health in regard to crystals and stones is

needed in both conditions to insure your dog is infection free and that stones

are not developing.”

(End quote)

[Sunnyflower]

tlc Oscar is exactly the same, an extremely fussy eater so the same as you it's horrible to think you find something they enjoy and then they have to be changed.

She didn't do an ultra sound on him but felt around, she tested the urine sample I took in and gave me anti-biotics according to what she felt it was and she sent it off to the lab today to do further test and it confirmed what she thought.

We are going back in a week to pick up the biscuits and she will check him over again and if she feels anything in his bladder we will do an ultra sound, take a urine sample directly from his bladder, do more tests and look into doing surgery..

I honestly believe the lump she felt last night was a full bowel as I know him very well and know with it near flooding yesterday he wouldn't have gone potty so I'll be sure to make him go before we go to the vets next week.

Turkey trip thank you for putting all that food info up. I asked the vet last night if he goes on this specific diet can I still give him bones or raw meat and she said no he can only eat the dry or wet food of the Hills Prescription.. This is why I wanted to ask because it didn't sound right..

I've used this vet surgery before but this is the first time I've seen this lady and it really does feel like she is surgery happy and trying to get my money.. He has no issues weeing or pooing, he's eating all his dinner and wanting more, still playing and being my crazy boy.. I feel wrong to think badly of her but like your vet tlc if there is no obviously behaviour changes she shouldn't be so quick to suggest surgery..

Hmmmm

I hope Cooper gets better soon..

[Sunnyflower]

Oops sorry double post.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Sunnyflower

[tlc]

Very informative, some of it is a little contradictory to the vets advice to me, such as the part about the meat in the diet and the protien. Wat he said to me was to avoid to much protien. That also blows my theory totally out of the water as I changed CJ from a grain based cereal to a more protien based cereal and this seem to make the problem worse. I am more confused than ever.

I also had a read of this site http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-health/bladder-stones.aspx which has similar info to the above, maybe my vet is not as up with it as he thinks he is??

[tlc]

Sunnyflower, I have read so many things about this and most of it similar, makes it hard when the vets info is so different. As far as the feeding goes, a lot of the web sites say that home cooked food is the best for this type of thing. My other 3 dogs are all on home made food and they do very well but Cooper has always been a fusser. I have had a number of people say that he just doesn't seem right but I have had him vet checked a lot and they never seem to find any problems till this has happened?? Anyway will just plod along and see how we go, seems all good now. Good luck with Oscar too!!

[CavsRcute]

My cavalier went through a time when she was getting UTI's, had a high PH level in the urine and ?struvite crystals.

I started her on Cranberry tablets and she has been really well...and that was 18 months ago

Ahhh very interesting.

His PH levels are off she said. Did the vet try and change her diet to a "special diet"??

Where can i get the cranberry tablets from?

A "special" diet was never mentioned at the start of the problem. My vet wanted to try other things first.

She did an ultrasound and found there were no stones.

I took my girl back 2 weeks later and her PH level was normal and there were no crystals.

I give her 1 x 5000mg tablet per day

I buy my tablets from the health food shop....they're quite inexpensive

The vet explained that the cranberry stops the bacteria from adhering to the wall of the bladder.

Slightly I was watching an old episode of All saints today, and a lady had a fall , wasn't found for 24 hrs and in that time she hadn't done a wee. The urine then backed up and caused an infection...might be something similar to Oscar.

Good luck

[Sunnyflower]

I find the protein side of it all pretty confusing too as the vet said the same thing about not giving too much protein.. The really confusing part is the biscuits he's on now are 22% protein and the Hills one is 29%.. haha talk about confusing..

[Sunnyflower]

cavsRcute this is exactly what someone said intially and when I went in there I said this to her but she wasn't interested in what I had to say and completely ignored the fact that he had been unable to go potty and said flat out that, that wouldn't cause it...

It almost feels like she is ignoring logic because she doesn't like others telling her possible causes..

All I know is prior to his major failed attempt to escape he had not blood in his wee as we walk most mornings and he's constantly cocking his little leg, so not that I am a specialist but it definitely has to be related to that and not as serious as it's being made out to be...

It's terrible that I am second guessing the vet..

I'll definitely go grab the cranberry tablets tomorrow.

[Peaches]

Don't feel bad about second guessing a vet. With more than 30 years experience with animals and vets, I can assure you that they can be wrong. Mostly untintentionaly but some deliberately to get more money. Whenever I have thought that their advice doesn't seem logical I have always found out in the end that they have been wrong. It is even more likely to be the case when the vet is not taking notice of what you are saying and does not explain why what you are saying isn't relevant.

I was also prescibed a prescription diet for a dog I had many years ago for heart congestion. He hadn't appeared to be sick and was quite happy but I was worried about the sound I heard when he was breathing. The vet examined him and then prescribed the diet. I tried to give it to him for quite a while but he just refused to eat it and looked miserable. He was around 10 years at the time so I decided that I would rather him be happy and enjoy what life he had left rather than having him for longer but with him not being very happy so I went back to his normal diet. When he was 13yrs with his breathing suddenly got a lot a lot worse, I took him to Tony Black in Sydney who operated on his larynx and he had no problem at all with his breathing after that. At 15yrs he had to have Xrays for another unrelated problem and his lungs and heart were found to be very healthy (no signs of conjestion). He had to be euthanised not long after because of bone cancer but if I had persisted with that other vets advice he would have not enjoyed food for his last 5 years! I also would have wasted heaps of money on an unnecessarily bland diet.

Ask this vet everything you can think of about her findings, then do some research and see if what she says make sence. Then also get a second opinion.

[Mas1981]

If you ever have a feeling that you think your vet could be wrong get a second opinion, try go to a vet who is recommended to you by someone you know who's animals have had a similar issue to yours. I recently took my dog to the vet for allergies, was told things that are not true, when I got home I looked some info up on the net and my vet had given my outdated treatments etc. I then went to a vet who was recommended to my by someone who has a dog with allergies and I am shocked at how much more knowledgeable this second vet is.

[Guest belgian.blue]

Hills diet prescrition C/D - 4.5kg for $72.. OUCH...

Just wondering what is so special about this diet? Had a look at the ingredients and they don't look all that special .. Seems VERY expensive for chicken by-products, pork fat and wheat/corn

[ozjen]

I've always given my females cranberry tablets as a precaution since my Rottweiler girl had a UTI as a pup.

I have my Cavalier girl on 1 x 5000mg tablet a day and my Rottweiler on 10,000mg per day. After reading about Oscar I think I'll start my boy Cavalier on 5000mg daily.

You can buy cranberry tablets or capsules at the chemist or health food store. Some supermarkets stock it as well.

Lovely, thank you cavNrott..

I just got the call from the vet and yep his diet has to be changed.

Hills diet prescrition C/D - 4.5kg for $72.. OUCH...

She is saying he is going to have to be on this for the rest of his life and being not quite 2 yet I probably would be able to buy a car by the end of it .. I laugh now but I'll cry later..

Surely there has to be a better alternative out there then just feeding him this. We will do it because we have to but I for some reason get the feeling this vet is overreacting a little and just interested in my money..

You too don't have any more of these issues with your dogs?

I don't entirly trust a vet that says an animal has to be on a special diet for the rest of its life especially when it comes at a heft cost and they are selling it. Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but years ago I was told my Papillon would have to be on medication for the rest of his life or he would be dead within a year. Well after a couple of months I took him of medication because he was becoming afraid of me(hated being given medication) and I decided that quality of life was more important than quantity. During this time I also changed my dogs diets to RMB feeding, well that was almost 6 years ago and he couldn't be better, he's 14 next month. For a little dog with a hole in his heart and a heart thats beats overtime to compensate he is full of life, and runs around with the big dogs at DOL meets as if he was half his age and never tires of chasing a ball. Perhaps, I was just lucky or perhaps the new diet helps, either way I'm not saying don't believe the vet just saying don't be made to feel that this is the only way your dog will lead a normal life, it may or may not be.

[Sunnyflower]

I've always given my females cranberry tablets as a precaution since my Rottweiler girl had a UTI as a pup.

I have my Cavalier girl on 1 x 5000mg tablet a day and my Rottweiler on 10,000mg per day. After reading about Oscar I think I'll start my boy Cavalier on 5000mg daily.

You can buy cranberry tablets or capsules at the chemist or health food store. Some supermarkets stock it as well.

Lovely, thank you cavNrott..

I just got the call from the vet and yep his diet has to be changed.

Hills diet prescrition C/D - 4.5kg for $72.. OUCH...

She is saying he is going to have to be on this for the rest of his life and being not quite 2 yet I probably would be able to buy a car by the end of it .. I laugh now but I'll cry later..

Surely there has to be a better alternative out there then just feeding him this. We will do it because we have to but I for some reason get the feeling this vet is overreacting a little and just interested in my money..

You too don't have any more of these issues with your dogs?

I don't entirly trust a vet that says an animal has to be on a special diet for the rest of its life especially when it comes at a heft cost and they are selling it. Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but years ago I was told my Papillon would have to be on medication for the rest of his life or he would be dead within a year. Well after a couple of months I took him of medication because he was becoming afraid of me(hated being given medication) and I decided that quality of life was more important than quantity. During this time I also changed my dogs diets to RMB feeding, well that was almost 6 years ago and he couldn't be better, he's 14 next month. For a little dog with a hole in his heart and a heart thats beats overtime to compensate he is full of life, and runs around with the big dogs at DOL meets as if he was half his age and never tires of chasing a ball. Perhaps, I was just lucky or perhaps the new diet helps, either way I'm not saying don't believe the vet just saying don't be made to feel that this is the only way your dog will lead a normal life, it may or may not be.

Ozjen, very glad to hear your little dude has done so well despite the heart problem going against him.

This is why I am a little questioning of what she is prescribing. The anti-biotics I have no worries with, with only having 1.5 tablets I am already seeing his urine becoming more clear. This may have happened without the anti-biotics but at least they will help with the infection. Not that I am a vet but I do feel that she should see how the 14 day course of the meds go before prescribing me stupidly expensive biscuits.

I will buy these biscuits next week and go in and have in checked over whilst there but if he must stay on them then I will be getting them from the states because they are only $30US over there and thats for 10kg bag.

That's how much we get ripped off in this country for premium pet foods.

[Sunnyflower]

Don't feel bad about second guessing a vet. With more than 30 years experience with animals and vets, I can assure you that they can be wrong. Mostly untintentionaly but some deliberately to get more money. Whenever I have thought that their advice doesn't seem logical I have always found out in the end that they have been wrong. It is even more likely to be the case when the vet is not taking notice of what you are saying and does not explain why what you are saying isn't relevant.

I was also prescibed a prescription diet for a dog I had many years ago for heart congestion. He hadn't appeared to be sick and was quite happy but I was worried about the sound I heard when he was breathing. The vet examined him and then prescribed the diet. I tried to give it to him for quite a while but he just refused to eat it and looked miserable. He was around 10 years at the time so I decided that I would rather him be happy and enjoy what life he had left rather than having him for longer but with him not being very happy so I went back to his normal diet. When he was 13yrs with his breathing suddenly got a lot a lot worse, I took him to Tony Black in Sydney who operated on his larynx and he had no problem at all with his breathing after that. At 15yrs he had to have Xrays for another unrelated problem and his lungs and heart were found to be very healthy (no signs of conjestion). He had to be euthanised not long after because of bone cancer but if I had persisted with that other vets advice he would have not enjoyed food for his last 5 years! I also would have wasted heaps of money on an unnecessarily bland diet.

Ask this vet everything you can think of about her findings, then do some research and see if what she says make sence. Then also get a second opinion.

WOW... It surprising how common it is that vets are wrong. The sad part is we do find that we trust them yet really they can't be trusted!

Yes I will keep asking her everything that I can and I have noticed a changed in the colour of his urine already and I firmly believe that the "lump" she was feeling around his bladder was a full bowel and she even said that herself.. When you are sticking your fingers from his tummy up to his spin naturally you are going to yelp but it was a yelp of "ouch there is something painful in there" it was more a "You're pushing and poking too hard"..

If she recommends surgery I will definitely get a second opinion because I don't believe he needs this.

He is weeing no more or less and having no troubles doing it. His body is still very regulated and the bowel is moving fine, he is still eating his food and wanting more and he is still playing. If he was struggling to do wee's or showed signs of pain then I'd be a little more on her side but he is showing no signs at all of stones.

If you ever have a feeling that you think your vet could be wrong get a second opinion, try go to a vet who is recommended to you by someone you know who's animals have had a similar issue to yours. I recently took my dog to the vet for allergies, was told things that are not true, when I got home I looked some info up on the net and my vet had given my outdated treatments etc. I then went to a vet who was recommended to my by someone who has a dog with allergies and I am shocked at how much more knowledgeable this second vet is.

This vet surgery is highly regarded in the area, I have used them in the past and I know of a well known rescue group that use them as well.

I will keep doing my research but it is always good to come on here and find out other peoples experiences with vets.

Hills diet prescrition C/D - 4.5kg for $72.. OUCH...

Just wondering what is so special about this diet? Had a look at the ingredients and they don't look all that special .. Seems VERY expensive for chicken by-products, pork fat and wheat/corn

I've never used this brand of food before, I know my parntners mother feeds her cats Science Diet and at $56 for 3.5kg I chocked when I saw her feeding it.

It apparently has properties/ingredients in it that helps break down and dissolve crystals in the bladder. If he is prone to them and it's going to be an on going problem I'm happy to feed it to him but she is telling me that I can't supplement his food with a raw diet as well. She said it can only be purely this..

[aussielover]

Actually, most vets make very little money off food products. I believe most prescribe special diets (whether rightly or wrongly) because they truly believe this is the best course of action. As a vet student, they are told all about the pros of the prescription diet and the importance of a nutritionally balanced diet. And, the premium dog food brands are nutritionally balanced, have been through feeding trials etc. For the AVERAGE dog owner- these foods are the best way to provide their pet with a balanced diet.

I agree that feeding a more natural diet is probably the way to go and if I had a choice I would feed my dog this way, but it is more time consuming and sometimes more expensive. For a lot of people on this forum- it is worth it and I admire you guys for doing it! But if you think about the average dog owner- the type of person who buys their puppy from a byb or pet shop (and sad to say but I believe this is the majority of dog owners), they are not going to be bothered with that.

[Sunnyflower]

Actually, most vets make very little money off food products. I believe most prescribe special diets (whether rightly or wrongly) because they truly believe this is the best course of action. As a vet student, they are told all about the pros of the prescription diet and the importance of a nutritionally balanced diet. And, the premium dog food brands are nutritionally balanced, have been through feeding trials etc. For the AVERAGE dog owner- these foods are the best way to provide their pet with a balanced diet.

I agree that feeding a more natural diet is probably the way to go and if I had a choice I would feed my dog this way, but it is more time consuming and sometimes more expensive. For a lot of people on this forum- it is worth it and I admire you guys for doing it! But if you think about the average dog owner- the type of person who buys their puppy from a byb or pet shop (and sad to say but I believe this is the majority of dog owners), they are not going to be bothered with that.

I don't doubt that the prescription diet is fantastic and will do a good job, but I asked her if I could feed him just a raw diet to reduce costs. I live on my own so to have a dog only allowed to eat purely these biscuits at $72 a pop is going to make life extremely difficult. I am about to start studying as well and the text books for this is $500. I want an alternative because I know there is better out there.. I don't really care if one would like to class me as an "average" dog owner but I never feed oscar canned food he gets fed raw mince, veggies mixed in, bones - chicken/beef off cuts, maybe a few too many carob drops and a dry biscuit that has a high fat content in it because he isn't much of an eater and he is a fussy eater. He is near enough on a raw diet now.

As a dog owner I have a right to dispute what I feel my vet is prescribing to me, I know my dog better than anyone. Granted on a medical grade I don't but there are people in here that have the same health issues with their dogs and they are finding that by giving them a cranberry vitamin it has stopped the cause.

I'm not saying this is guaranteed to work for Oscar, but I have just as much of a chance of it working at $15 a bottle for 60 tablets then at $72 for a 4.5kg bag of food that I have been told that is ALL he is allowed to eat.

I am willing to try this food and am picking it up next Friday when he goes in for his check up but I will also be trying the cranberry vitamins and a complete raw diet like others have recommended.

Just because she is a vet doesn't mean she is right. We all have much to learn.

[kirst_goldens]

i would get a second opinion im not up near u but maybe someone can suggest a vet for u...

I find that certain vets have an interest in certain things like skin problems or ear infections or somehting like that and they will look into it and learn alot about it - this might also be because they see alot of it in the area?

so most vets specialise in something without even knowing it

other vets on the other hand are happy to not longer further their knowledge and will do what seems to work or what they have used before and persist with that method.

I would find a vet someone has used for something similar as mentioned earlier and they will be much more help - i am not a vet but if u say it was struvite crystals?? then according to that info posted it needs antibiotics and then wean off them - no mention of a diet change...

Try something other then those perscription diets... i HATE them with a passion... i would ask the vet when ur there what makes it different and discuss it with them then do some of ur own research into how u can make the same changes without using that food - i think she is getting carried away and it will be nothing as bad as she thinks lol well i sure hope so anyway!! good luck and keep us updated :rolleyes:

[Sunnyflower]

Kirst Goldens I definitely know what you are saying and thank you..

Oscar is on anti-biotics for 14 days and straight away I have seen a difference in the colour of his urine, so really pleased about that..

Thats why I wanted peoples opinions on here cause I feel as though a raw diet is better then these biscuits..

We'll do the 14 days of meds and see how we go from there as I'm already seeing a change.

I know she is on a money grab because she wanted me to bring him back in today to check his bladder when he hadn't even had two full tablets..

What I might do is pick the biscuits up and take him back when he's finished his meds.. I know she's not going to want that but why check something to determine if surgery is needed when the original course of action isn't finished!! Thats logical right??

My partners Mum rang earlier to see how he is bless her and they have 3 beautiful cats and turns out their ragdoll AJ suffers from the same thing and has since he was 3 and he's now 10 and she has been feeding the cats Science Diet that whole time and since changing him to it, he hasn't suffered since..

So I might just stick to this biscuit from now on and just supplement with what he gets now being mince and veggies..

I'm learning thats for sure hahaha