Shame On 3aw Breakfast Presents At 5.40am

[Swizzlestick]

Great post koalathebear

I agree with all that you've said here.

My problem (just like in your post) is not the type of meat/animal eaten, but the way in which it's reared/housed/slaughtered.

I think most, if not every race/culture/religion has and probably will have forever, some practice with which I do not agree. I won't accept this. I will just continue to be repulsed and disagree.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Sir WJ

[chichihuahua]

koalathebear,

Excellent post. I agree with your points. I too find that people often tend to make direct comparisons between animal treatment in Australia to places like China and fail to take into account that there is a lack of legislation and education about the issue on a state level. Things are not going to change without changes first on a government level so I think it's unfair for others to always waggle the finger and take a superior, moral western stance.

I think we're all lucky to live in a country like Australia where animal rights and legislation in the meat industry is standard and the norm. We grow up being used to this and sometimes forget that not every other country has similar laws in place. China has a long way to go in terms of both human and animal rights but from what I can see, it has come a long way since it's closed, communist days.

I didn't want to mention this at first but the reason why I jump up at these kinds of threads is because I am from a Chinese background so generalized statements affect me personally. It's like reading/watching stereotyped ideals of yourself and thinking, "but hey, I'm not like that at all!". I personally find it offensive and I am tired of constantly having to defend myself against people who I don't really believe have a full understanding of the issue to begin with. I was brought up here so I have adopted all sorts of western beliefs and cultural habits but even my extended family still in China don't eat dog. In fact, none of my mother's friends or other chinese people that I know eat dog meat. It's NOT the norm. And if anyone actually has ever been to a major city of China, they will find that the people there tend to be quite caring towards animals and pets in general. Shanghai has an insane amount of dog-owners nowadays. Of course, I don't mean that just because more people are owning dogs it means that there are not problems but I have noticed a significant change in people's attitude towards pets in general. Of course, none of this is ever mentioned so other people (like many on this thread who have never even visited China) have misinformed, one-sided information and are more akin to label chinese people in general as being this way or that.

Edited May 31, 2010 by chichihuahua

[DerRottweiler]

Both are wrong. That said, if someone were to eat dog (and treat it humanely, slaughter it in a humane manner etc), then I couldn't really say much, seeing as how I eat cow, sheep, fish etc. It is the food chain, like it or not. Cow, sheep, dog, cat, sloth, zebra.

I agree. But not in Australia. We might be a multi-cultural Country, but there are some cultures I'd like to cling to. And that's one of them.

For sure.

In Australia, we hold dogs in high regard.

In India, cows are sacred.

So it is all relative.

[GardenofEden]

I think people always get a little bit hot under the collar about this issue because dogs are lovable I think the fundamental problem lies with the fact that as a developing nation, China has yet to reach optimum standards regarding animal protection. It's not just dogs - it's animals generally. That's not to say that there isn't animal cruelty and suffering in places like Australia - but we have legislation and more generalised societal disapproval of the mistreatment of animals. People who think that pigs, chickens and other animals don't suffer before they're humanely killed in Australia are just deluding themselves. If you really want to push it, who's to say that vegetarians are in the right, either - no one has proved that vegies don't suffer?

I lived and worked in China from 2005 until last year and before that, studied and travelled there quite frequently. I do believe that it's wrong to assume that all Chinese like to eat dog or endangered animals blah blah. It's kind of like the generalisation that Koreans like to eat dog meat. I had a lot of Korean classmates and friends and I think only ONE of them ate dog meat and that was occasionally and from some traditional believe that it gave strength when one was feeling poorly. Most of my Korean friends said that only 'old people' ate dog meat. Dog meat also wasn't rampant on the streets of Beijing - you had to go looking for it.

I'm a dog lover, I have a puppy, I would never ever eat dog meat - but I don't condemn the eating of dog meat per se. I just wouldn't do it myself, just the same way my brother would never eat turtles because he loves turtles, my mother in law would never eat mutton or lamb because she loves sheep and so forth. There are plenty of people who are horrified that people eat pigs (intelligent), rabbits and lambs (cute), kangaroo (a national animal on our coat of arms!!!)

Dog meat is still eaten by some but to be honest, like many things in China, it's the beat-up in the West that gives it a certain notoriety/popularity. For instance, you can buy live, writhing scorpions on skewers in Wangfujing Food Street. In my whole time there, I never saw a Chinese person buying and eating those - it was always laughing/goofing around foreigners (lots of Aussies!) taking photos, buying them and frequently even eating them for the camera. If it wasn't for the foreign tourists making such a fuss over the bizarre foods there, I doubt the food street would still even sell those bizarre kebabs. Similarly the furore about dog meat. I'm told that the dogs are specially bred for eating - it's not that they come and take Fido from your yard and gobble him. In Gansu Province, we had the choice of eating camels and donkeys in Mongolia it was tough old goat, in Xian there was dog in the street - I think culturally in many of those places, people ate the meat that was available. Revolting as it seems, I have no problem with it as long as the animal doesn't suffer.

I think people should focus more on the treatment of the animal than the animal itself. For instance, I was extremely irate to learn about the puppies being sold on the street. Here we know about puppy mills and backyard breeders, it's a LOT worse in China. Quite frequently you'll see guys on street corners selling the most adorable little balls of fur and cuteness that you will ever see. You should never buy from them - this article tells you why - dodgy people dye the poor puppies so that they're the most popular colours. The puppies that don't perish while being boiled will frequently die soon after because of their ordeal. That sort of thing can only be stopped through education - increasing of public awareness. That's why I think the message should be more about: "Don't treat animals cruelly" than "don't eat dog or other cute animals."

Also, for those who seem to think that 'Chinamen' are cruel - I went to the Siberian Tiger Park when I was in Harbin for the ice lantern festival. At that park, for RMB1,000 you could feed a live cow to the tigers - watching them rip it apart. For RMB500, a live pig - all the way down to a live chicken. The average Chinese can't afford to spend that kind of money feeding a tiger - it's mostly foreigners who go there and do it for a lark. In fact, while I was there I watched an Australian family buy a chicken, laugh and take photos as they dangled the unfortunate animal from a stick and watch it be ripped apart by a tiger. I'm not vegetarian, I eat chicken but I was pretty disgusted by the glee that they took in it. Of course I'm not saying that all Aussies are like that - I think I'm just trying to say that cruelty to animals isn't a national trait, it's still an individual characteristic.

I hear what you are saying but still insist that in China it is more of a national trait. It's not a case of one dog here and there, it is a case of millions of dogs and thereby lies the difference. Millions of dogs skinned alive, not just one here and there (not that I am pardoning it, as no dogs should be skinned alive!). What I am trying to say is.....that your examples of a particular family holding a chook up in the air for the tiger to snatch it, may very well take place but they are an oddity and not a common occurrence. BTW, hope that family and others like it receive its share of negative karma!

Edited June 1, 2010 by GardenofEden

[GardenofEden]

koalathebear,

Excellent post. I agree with your points. I too find that people often tend to make direct comparisons between animal treatment in Australia to places like China and fail to take into account that there is a lack of legislation and education about the issue on a state level. Things are not going to change without changes first on a government level so I think it's unfair for others to always waggle the finger and take a superior, moral western stance.

I think we're all lucky to live in a country like Australia where animal rights and legislation in the meat industry is standard and the norm. We grow up being used to this and sometimes forget that not every other country has similar laws in place. China has a long way to go in terms of both human and animal rights but from what I can see, it has come a long way since it's closed, communist days.

I didn't want to mention this at first but the reason why I jump up at these kinds of threads is because I am from a Chinese background so generalized statements affect me personally. It's like reading/watching stereotyped ideals of yourself and thinking, "but hey, I'm not like that at all!". I personally find it offensive and I am tired of constantly having to defend myself against people who I don't really believe have a full understanding of the issue to begin with. I was brought up here so I have adopted all sorts of western beliefs and cultural habits but even my extended family still in China don't eat dog. In fact, none of my mother's friends or other chinese people that I know eat dog meat. It's NOT the norm. And if anyone actually has ever been to a major city of China, they will find that the people there tend to be quite caring towards animals and pets in general. Shanghai has an insane amount of dog-owners nowadays. Of course, I don't mean that just because more people are owning dogs it means that there are not problems but I have noticed a significant change in people's attitude towards pets in general. Of course, none of this is ever mentioned so other people (like many on this thread who have never even visited China) have misinformed, one-sided information and are more akin to label chinese people in general as being this way or that.

And thereby lies the difference, you were brought up here in australia; I have chinese friends and think the world of them, their pets are treated like royalty. I won't dispute your point in that your extended family still living in China will not eat dog, they must be one of the few exceptions. Chinese people living in the western world and of a younger generation are absolutely awesome people, pity I cannot say the same about the older generation whether living in China or the western world. I used to breed dogs and never had any hesitations in placing a pup with a chinese person/couple/family.

As so far as China having a long way to go in bettering their view on animal rights - well, it is the younger generation that is carrying on with barbaric methods of slaughtering due to false beliefs, beliefs that have been passed on by the older generation and in which they themselves will end up passing on. Maybe in the next 200 years if we are lucky and only if the western world got together and demanded a change but I cannot see that ever taking place.

[Loving my Oldies]

And I would rather that we ensure that it not only remains not customary, but that it is announced as unacceptable. I didn't hear the segment, but what I wouldn't like "joking" about it is that with continuance it might be taken by some that perhaps some (enough) Australians find it acceptable. Hopefully this was a 'first and last' situation. Too much "joking" about it can, over time, have a desensitisation affect. I wouldn't like that.

Well, you'd better get used to it Erny, because all sorts of customs that many would find unacceptable are becoming the norm. New Zealand and Australian doctors and discussing the possibility of allowing "a little nick" at female genitals as a way of placating those people who believe and practice female genital mutilation.

That's where you're wrong, MM. I don't "better get used to it". Which is why I'm placing my objection publicly here and I'll place my objection publicly anywhere. I don't "better" anything - I refuse to. I will NOT get used to it. People can do what they want (referencing your comment of genital nicking) if they are consenting adults and I won't argue. But please don't tell me I'd "better get used to it" when it comes to cruel and barbaric animal practices.

Oh FFS (as someone said to me), it is a turn of phrase Erny

Under no circumstances should we get used to it and, I protest at every opportunity too.

[Erny]

Oh FFS (as someone said to me), it is a turn of phrase Erny

Alright. Steady on MM.