Puppies Registration Papers

[Wazzat Xolo]

BB are you still here ?

Or debating somewhere else ?

[ellz]

To get to the point of me quoting oakway here. If one or more of your puppy buyers was interested in showing a nice pup they bought from you they wouldn't be able to until the papers arrived some 12 months later. Wouldn't that hold back the pup's show career?

There were some manual registrations going through at the time, but not many. In most cases, dogs were just being shown with TBA as their registration numbers and many people were praying that their names would be accepted. It would have been a clerical nightmare to sort out otherwise.

For my part, I purchased a puppy in August 1997 and didn't get the papers until March 1998 but could have still entered him in shows had I wished to do so.

[cavNrott]

See! I'm learning all the time on here. Thanks for the info Ellz.

[fifi]

I'd almost forgotten the great computer changeover ! I remember putting 'Pending' on the entry forms for a pup I'd bought.

fifi

[Black Bronson]

I'm another that likes to wait to the last minute to make final decisions on Main or Limit, but I have to give a big thumbs up to Dogs NSW express processing. Yes, it costs more, but I generally get my papers within 24 hours (for example, fax them through on a Monday, the papers are in my letterbox on Tuesday morning AND I'm in a regional area). I always use this service and I've never had a problem (other probs with Dogs NSW processing, but never litters).

I think it's nice to send the papers home with the pups as part of their puppy packs. It's such an exciting time for puppy owners, I like them to have their 'birth certificates' in their packs. I know in other states this may not be possible, but I don't find it hard in NSW.

I have to say I was quite shocked in a discussion with others in my breed a while back where several said they do not give papers to puppy buyers. These are not 'dodgy' breeders and all the puppies are registered, but the breeders retain the papers. They were worried about puppy buyers doing something dodgy with the papers (such as forging signitures to upgrade from Limit to Main), but I feel strongly that all registered breeders should be proud to supply papers with their pups.

Heeeeyyyyy :rolleyes: Take note of Tansy's breeding perception. Lovely post Tansy, nice to see some "ethical" breeders join the thread. The "ethics" to think about their buyers needs instead how everything effects them. ;)

Edited May 28, 2010 by Black Bronson

[nickojoy]

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them.

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers ;)

Risk is you as a buyer NOT doing your research.... like buying a puppy with the parents not health tested or you not given papers for the tests from the parents! If you haven't got the time to research and find a ethical breeder.

If they promise you papers, GET IT IN WRITING in a contract.

You as a buyer have the rights to see the breeders prefix papers and membership details of the CC of the state they are in.

What I said isn't going to get papers for the pup, but seriously people need to research.... I Read the breeders section all the time about emails and puppy inquiries. They get emails daily asking HOW MUCH?, not are the parents tested? What are their temps like? Will the pups be on main or limited register? Are they suitable for showing? Is there limitations on the sales? How much grooming is involved? What age will they be fully grown? Would you recommend this breed with young kids?

BB I think it is time for you to do your research....

I don't get caught Nickojoy and I do plenty of research to find the right breeder with the dogs I require. What I have found recently though, the breeders with the "attitude" and all the restrictions actually don't have the best dogs, and think they are too good to keep working at it hard enough and the more humble enthusiastic breeders are passing them by

well you need to have some respect for them... If they do not have the "best dogs" and they are placing the pups on "restrictions" instead of everyone on the MAIN register GOOD ON THEM.... there should be more of them..... :rolleyes:

[Black Bronson]

You are missing the thread Whippets, it's about getting duded with your papers and all that's really happening here is a spray of arrogance towards people that have been caught with unethical practices. No one arguing on this thread breeds dogs that I have any interest in whatsoever, and I can tell you that I have no interest in dealing with breeders who treat their buyers with contempt either. Some of the comments from breeders are disgraceful and personally I hope that any prospective buyers are taking note of who not to deal with unless they want to be jumping through hoops and treated like a second class citizens waiting for their papers to arrive.

Thing is, BB, is that I'm one of those people who will, one day, again be a prospective buyer and I can say without a doubt, 100%, that I will be going with/staying with a breeder who has restrictions, limitations etc - everything you say people should stay away from. I have no problem with waiting for papers if I need to, because I'll have done my research into the breeder, have established a relationship and know I won't be getting 'duped'.

And I can tell you I will be avoiding any breeder who puts all their puppies on main and sells to anything and anyone. We have enough breeders like that in our breed, who pump out puppies and put them all on main, feeding the BYB industry and amateur breeders.

Stormie, having restrictions and limitations in place doesn't automatically determine these are practices of a great breeder. When I was searching for my new puppy 6 months ago, I was totally shocked with what was going on. ;) and appeared worse than it was 3 years ago when purchasing my other boy, the restrictions over your own dog are escalating sometimes out of control, totally unreasonable restrictions. I found one litter that I liked, $1200 on limited, $3500 on main, some on joint ownership contracts and some they wouldn't provide the papers at all. There is plenty of funny business going on out there and you have to be careful when looking for a specific type of dog. The puppy I did buy had the better parentage and line breedings than the restricted litters, had pick of the boys and tested them 3 times. The difference was massive between my breeder and some that I had considered. I have a promising puppy, main registered, no restrictions with the papers on collection..........beautiful, just a really good experience in the whole process :rolleyes:

[Black Bronson]

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them.

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

Risk is you as a buyer NOT doing your research.... like buying a puppy with the parents not health tested or you not given papers for the tests from the parents! If you haven't got the time to research and find a ethical breeder.

If they promise you papers, GET IT IN WRITING in a contract.

You as a buyer have the rights to see the breeders prefix papers and membership details of the CC of the state they are in.

What I said isn't going to get papers for the pup, but seriously people need to research.... I Read the breeders section all the time about emails and puppy inquiries. They get emails daily asking HOW MUCH?, not are the parents tested? What are their temps like? Will the pups be on main or limited register? Are they suitable for showing? Is there limitations on the sales? How much grooming is involved? What age will they be fully grown? Would you recommend this breed with young kids?

BB I think it is time for you to do your research....

I don't get caught Nickojoy and I do plenty of research to find the right breeder with the dogs I require. What I have found recently though, the breeders with the "attitude" and all the restrictions actually don't have the best dogs, and think they are too good to keep working at it hard enough and the more humble enthusiastic breeders are passing them by

well you need to have some respect for them... If they do not have the "best dogs" and they are placing the pups on "restrictions" instead of everyone on the MAIN register GOOD ON THEM.... there should be more of them..... :rolleyes:

It's fine if you like hoop jumping for an average dog ;)

[Black Bronson]

BB make sure you never buy a dog from SA as you still don't seem to understand that we can not give you the papers with the pup. Breeders in SA must send the papers into DogsSA to be transferred into the new owners name, therefore the new owners recieve them in the post after they have picked up their pup. :rolleyes:

Not sure how else to say this so you understand.

Leanne

If that's the SA system, there is no option, but it's not the system in every state.

[stormie]

You are missing the thread Whippets, it's about getting duded with your papers and all that's really happening here is a spray of arrogance towards people that have been caught with unethical practices. No one arguing on this thread breeds dogs that I have any interest in whatsoever, and I can tell you that I have no interest in dealing with breeders who treat their buyers with contempt either. Some of the comments from breeders are disgraceful and personally I hope that any prospective buyers are taking note of who not to deal with unless they want to be jumping through hoops and treated like a second class citizens waiting for their papers to arrive.

Thing is, BB, is that I'm one of those people who will, one day, again be a prospective buyer and I can say without a doubt, 100%, that I will be going with/staying with a breeder who has restrictions, limitations etc - everything you say people should stay away from. I have no problem with waiting for papers if I need to, because I'll have done my research into the breeder, have established a relationship and know I won't be getting 'duped'.

And I can tell you I will be avoiding any breeder who puts all their puppies on main and sells to anything and anyone. We have enough breeders like that in our breed, who pump out puppies and put them all on main, feeding the BYB industry and amateur breeders.

Stormie, having restrictions and limitations in place doesn't automatically determine these are practices of a great breeder. When I was searching for my new puppy 6 months ago, I was totally shocked with what was going on. and appeared worse than it was 3 years ago when purchasing my other boy, the restrictions over your own dog are escalating sometimes out of control, totally unreasonable restrictions. I found one litter that I liked, $1200 on limited, $3500 on main, some on joint ownership contracts and some they wouldn't provide the papers at all. There is plenty of funny business going on out there and you have to be careful when looking for a specific type of dog. The puppy I did buy had the better parentage and line breedings than the restricted litters, had pick of the boys and tested them 3 times. The difference was massive between my breeder and some that I had considered. I have a promising puppy, main registered, no restrictions with the papers on collection..........beautiful, just a really good experience in the whole process :D

BB, I have tried to see your point of view in your posts but now you're just insulting people's intelligence. Don't think you most of us have all been around in the Purebred world long enough to know what determines a good, ethical breeder? And I think it's pretty rude that you're telling me that my personal view on the matter, as in what I want from my breeder, implies they are not ethical.

I am well aware there are breeders out there who are not ethical. I see them all the time. I see the results of their breeding in our clinic on a daily basis.

And if your idea of an ethical breeder is one who puts all their pups on the main reg, sells to anyone with little care of whether they will breed with it or not, then that's fine. That's your opinion and what you want from a breeder.

It's not what I want from a breeder and who are you to tell me that the breeder I chose is therefore unethical. And who are you to tell me that my LIMITED REGISTER dog, who is a damn fine example of his breed and more to the standard than many MAIN REG. dogs out there, is of a lower standard and that I obviously got duped by my breeder.

You say yourself that there are plenty of dodgy unethical breeders out there. So maybe, rather than just arguing for the sake of it, you can try to open your mind a little and see from other people's points of view just why some breeders are loath to put everything on the main reg. Talk to people of certain breeds and compare a few breeders and look at the difference in types. Pop in to our thread maybe and have a read of some of the problems some of our owners have had with poorly bred dogs with terrible confirmation leaving the dog in pain for the rest of its life. These types of breeders got their hands on some main reg dogs and bred them and continued to breed them with no idea what they were doing. They have no idea about confirmation, breeding genetics etc. So tell me why this breeder should be allowed to end up with a very well bred dog with great type, when you know they're going to breed the #$%^ out of it to exploit its lines, because they think the dog has some sort of magic wand and will produce beautiful puppies. Nope, this dog will be a complete waste because it will be bred to anything and everything, none of which will be improving the breed - quite the opposite really. The puppies will be average because no thought went into the breeding. So an otherwise lovely dog, that in the RIGHT hands could have produced some lovely puppies, has become a waste and a breeding machine, adding to the terribly conformed puppies already being produced.

As for papers - yep, I got my papers with Orbit as a puppy. But would I have cared if I didn't? Nope. Because I knew there would be no chance of not getting my papers. I had 200% confidence in my breeder - she has her reputation to think of and was breeding for herself so why wouldn't she register the puppies. But hey, I did my research. I nearly got duped by a breeder but managed to pull out of the deal because I did research.

If people thought of dogs as living things and not just an item they can go out and buy tomorrow, we wouldn't see a lot of the problems. Because people would go to dog shows, meet people in the breed, talk to people and find out what they need to know. But people don't do that. They want a puppy and decide they want one now. So they find someone who's prepared to sell them a pup at the drop of a hat. Trouble is, those breeders can so often be the 'farming' type just in it for the money, lying to people etc. So yeah, shame on the 'breeder' for their unethical approach, but shame on the buyer for not giving some thought into the life they are about to take home.

Edited May 28, 2010 by stormie

[nickojoy]

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them.

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

Risk is you as a buyer NOT doing your research.... like buying a puppy with the parents not health tested or you not given papers for the tests from the parents! If you haven't got the time to research and find a ethical breeder.

If they promise you papers, GET IT IN WRITING in a contract.

You as a buyer have the rights to see the breeders prefix papers and membership details of the CC of the state they are in.

What I said isn't going to get papers for the pup, but seriously people need to research.... I Read the breeders section all the time about emails and puppy inquiries. They get emails daily asking HOW MUCH?, not are the parents tested? What are their temps like? Will the pups be on main or limited register? Are they suitable for showing? Is there limitations on the sales? How much grooming is involved? What age will they be fully grown? Would you recommend this breed with young kids?

BB I think it is time for you to do your research....

I don't get caught Nickojoy and I do plenty of research to find the right breeder with the dogs I require. What I have found recently though, the breeders with the "attitude" and all the restrictions actually don't have the best dogs, and think they are too good to keep working at it hard enough and the more humble enthusiastic breeders are passing them by :p

well you need to have some respect for them... If they do not have the "best dogs" and they are placing the pups on "restrictions" instead of everyone on the MAIN register GOOD ON THEM.... there should be more of them..... :D

It's fine if you like hoop jumping for an average dog

You are NOT HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING, you need to go back to the puppy listings and research each breed, there are too many breeders out there selling every pup on the main register, these are not all of quality, so if one or two breeders more do it, it is better for the breed, at least the average puppy then isn't bred from.

[ellz]

I'm another that likes to wait to the last minute to make final decisions on Main or Limit, but I have to give a big thumbs up to Dogs NSW express processing. Yes, it costs more, but I generally get my papers within 24 hours (for example, fax them through on a Monday, the papers are in my letterbox on Tuesday morning AND I'm in a regional area). I always use this service and I've never had a problem (other probs with Dogs NSW processing, but never litters).

I think it's nice to send the papers home with the pups as part of their puppy packs. It's such an exciting time for puppy owners, I like them to have their 'birth certificates' in their packs. I know in other states this may not be possible, but I don't find it hard in NSW.

I have to say I was quite shocked in a discussion with others in my breed a while back where several said they do not give papers to puppy buyers. These are not 'dodgy' breeders and all the puppies are registered, but the breeders retain the papers. They were worried about puppy buyers doing something dodgy with the papers (such as forging signitures to upgrade from Limit to Main), but I feel strongly that all registered breeders should be proud to supply papers with their pups.

Heeeeyyyyy Take note of Tansy's breeding perception. Lovely post Tansy, nice to see some "ethical" breeders join the thread. The "ethics" to think about their buyers needs instead how everything effects them.

And yet AGAIN BB is reading and interpreting ONLY the things in the post that agree with what they want them to agree with!

NOBODY is saying they don't want purchasers to have their papers. And ST is not saying that ALL puppies are sold with main registration papers. Not all states HAVE express preparation of papers and even those which do, don't always end up as such. The assumption is also that the stud dog owner has signed off appropriately on the registration application and that the microchips have been done in the states where microchipping is compulsory. I also would not like to have a puppy microchipped prior to their first needles and I do NOT have injections done prior to the age of 8 weeks EVER!

I don't get hung up on registration papers...MY equivalent of a TEN generation pedigree is more informative than a three generation pedigree a la a registering body anyway.....do you have any idea of the amount of work can be in researching and data entering enough pedigree information into a computer to generate one BB?

NOTHING in this thread has convinced me that what I do is wrong. If anything, it has made me more determined NOT to sell to particular individuals. I have had many potential owners try to push me around and tell me what to do with my own puppies in the past and I'm no more inclined to let them do so now, than I was then, when I didn't really understand as much and hadn't had the experience that I've had to date.

To be perfectly frank, in many cases, with my breed in particular there are times that I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself. At least then I can vouch for what happens to them and not have to deal with idiots any more!

[Wazzat Xolo]

As Ellz said

To be perfectly frank, in many cases, with my breed in particular there are times that I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself. At least then I can vouch for what happens to them and not have to deal with idiots any more!

I agree

Well said I know exactly how you feel.

Edited May 29, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[Dogsfevr]

Also many breeds can be DNA tested prior to sale(that aren't from clear/clear parents BUT must also be micro chipped before this is done.

In many breeds again first eye tests are also done between 6/8 weeks for CHC & the likes & again micro chipping is done prior to these tests being completed.

The scary part about people like BB is they give there advice to others & then its like the blind leading the blind

It is scary when they feel pups should be registered early to have papers ready when decent breeders still have testing & the likes to be done.luckily good pet owners seek out the good from the bad .

I have to say in all the years of hearing issues with papers it is generally from breeders you would never buy from in the first place.

[cavNrott]

To be perfectly frank, in many cases, with my breed in particular there are times that I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself. At least then I can vouch for what happens to them and not have to deal with idiots any more!

I understand your frustration Ellz but not all buyers are idiots. Some of us take very good care of our dogs and provide them with plenty of love, training, exercise and a good life. The breeders of my dogs seem pleased with my care of the pups they sold me. They're happy to take my recommendation of any puppy buyer I refer to them. I'm darn careful about the people I refer though. I wouldn't refer anyone to a breeder if I didn't know them well enough to know they would take good care of the puppy. If I refer a buyer to a breeder I feel partly responsible for the pup they bring home.

I think you're speaking out of sheer frustration because I couldn't imagine you would rather euthanise your perfectly healthy puppies and deny them a chance at life. You're an experienced breeder and can pick the wheat from the chaff with your puppy buyers. Your gut instinct would be well honed.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

To be perfectly frank, in many cases, with my breed in particular there are times that I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself. At least then I can vouch for what happens to them and not have to deal with idiots any more!

I understand your frustration Ellz but not all buyers are idiots. Some of us take very good care of our dogs and provide them with plenty of love, training, exercise and a good life. The breeders of my dogs seem pleased with my care of the pups they sold me. They're happy to take my recommendation of any puppy buyer I refer to them. I'm darn careful about the people I refer though. I wouldn't refer anyone to a breeder if I didn't know them well enough to know they would take good care of the puppy. If I refer a buyer to a breeder I feel partly responsible for the pup they bring home.

I think you're speaking out of sheer frustration because I couldn't imagine you would rather euthanise your perfectly healthy puppies and deny them a chance at life. You're an experienced breeder and can pick the wheat from the chaff with your puppy buyers. Your gut instinct would be well honed.

i agree. statements like "I think I'd rather euthanase every puppy that I don't keep for myself" are fuel for the fire for people that dont understand the heartache and work that goes into breeding good dogs.

because if this really is what you mean then i will be insulted as i take very good care of my dogs and there are more people like me than the ones who are not doing the right thing.

[ellz]

Sadly, part of the reason I don't breed a lot and one of the reasons I almost stopped a few years ago was the sheer LACK of suitably qualified caring homes for puppies.

Unfortunately, when you have a breed like the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, everybody thinks that they should own one but the reality is that very few really are "right" for them.

My apologies to the GOOD pet owners and yes, I know they are out there but as a dog breeder, placing puppies in good homes, you are forced to kiss a heck of a lot of frogs before you find the princes!

[Black Bronson]

You are missing the thread Whippets, it's about getting duded with your papers and all that's really happening here is a spray of arrogance towards people that have been caught with unethical practices. No one arguing on this thread breeds dogs that I have any interest in whatsoever, and I can tell you that I have no interest in dealing with breeders who treat their buyers with contempt either. Some of the comments from breeders are disgraceful and personally I hope that any prospective buyers are taking note of who not to deal with unless they want to be jumping through hoops and treated like a second class citizens waiting for their papers to arrive.

Thing is, BB, is that I'm one of those people who will, one day, again be a prospective buyer and I can say without a doubt, 100%, that I will be going with/staying with a breeder who has restrictions, limitations etc - everything you say people should stay away from. I have no problem with waiting for papers if I need to, because I'll have done my research into the breeder, have established a relationship and know I won't be getting 'duped'.

And I can tell you I will be avoiding any breeder who puts all their puppies on main and sells to anything and anyone. We have enough breeders like that in our breed, who pump out puppies and put them all on main, feeding the BYB industry and amateur breeders.

Stormie, having restrictions and limitations in place doesn't automatically determine these are practices of a great breeder. When I was searching for my new puppy 6 months ago, I was totally shocked with what was going on. and appeared worse than it was 3 years ago when purchasing my other boy, the restrictions over your own dog are escalating sometimes out of control, totally unreasonable restrictions. I found one litter that I liked, $1200 on limited, $3500 on main, some on joint ownership contracts and some they wouldn't provide the papers at all. There is plenty of funny business going on out there and you have to be careful when looking for a specific type of dog. The puppy I did buy had the better parentage and line breedings than the restricted litters, had pick of the boys and tested them 3 times. The difference was massive between my breeder and some that I had considered. I have a promising puppy, main registered, no restrictions with the papers on collection..........beautiful, just a really good experience in the whole process

BB, I have tried to see your point of view in your posts but now you're just insulting people's intelligence. Don't think you most of us have all been around in the Purebred world long enough to know what determines a good, ethical breeder? And I think it's pretty rude that you're telling me that my personal view on the matter, as in what I want from my breeder, implies they are not ethical.

I am well aware there are breeders out there who are not ethical. I see them all the time. I see the results of their breeding in our clinic on a daily basis.

And if your idea of an ethical breeder is one who puts all their pups on the main reg, sells to anyone with little care of whether they will breed with it or not, then that's fine. That's your opinion and what you want from a breeder.

It's not what I want from a breeder and who are you to tell me that the breeder I chose is therefore unethical. And who are you to tell me that my LIMITED REGISTER dog, who is a damn fine example of his breed and more to the standard than many MAIN REG. dogs out there, is of a lower standard and that I obviously got duped by my breeder.

You say yourself that there are plenty of dodgy unethical breeders out there. So maybe, rather than just arguing for the sake of it, you can try to open your mind a little and see from other people's points of view just why some breeders are loath to put everything on the main reg. Talk to people of certain breeds and compare a few breeders and look at the difference in types. Pop in to our thread maybe and have a read of some of the problems some of our owners have had with poorly bred dogs with terrible confirmation leaving the dog in pain for the rest of its life. These types of breeders got their hands on some main reg dogs and bred them and continued to breed them with no idea what they were doing. They have no idea about confirmation, breeding genetics etc. So tell me why this breeder should be allowed to end up with a very well bred dog with great type, when you know they're going to breed the #$%^ out of it to exploit its lines, because they think the dog has some sort of magic wand and will produce beautiful puppies. Nope, this dog will be a complete waste because it will be bred to anything and everything, none of which will be improving the breed - quite the opposite really. The puppies will be average because no thought went into the breeding. So an otherwise lovely dog, that in the RIGHT hands could have produced some lovely puppies, has become a waste and a breeding machine, adding to the terribly conformed puppies already being produced.

As for papers - yep, I got my papers with Orbit as a puppy. But would I have cared if I didn't? Nope. Because I knew there would be no chance of not getting my papers. I had 200% confidence in my breeder - she has her reputation to think of and was breeding for herself so why wouldn't she register the puppies. But hey, I did my research. I nearly got duped by a breeder but managed to pull out of the deal because I did research.

If people thought of dogs as living things and not just an item they can go out and buy tomorrow, we wouldn't see a lot of the problems. Because people would go to dog shows, meet people in the breed, talk to people and find out what they need to know. But people don't do that. They want a puppy and decide they want one now. So they find someone who's prepared to sell them a pup at the drop of a hat. Trouble is, those breeders can so often be the 'farming' type just in it for the money, lying to people etc. So yeah, shame on the 'breeder' for their unethical approach, but shame on the buyer for not giving some thought into the life they are about to take home.

Stormie, are your saying your breeder didn't trust your intentions to own a main registered dog, you were not good enough to withhold the breeding temptation???. Personally from reading your posts and perceptions, there is no valid reason IMO why a good breed example you owned should be on limited register???. It's a good dog with a good home and owner so what's the problem with your dog being on main register where it deserves to be???.

What I see is a trust issue............the breeder doesn't trust the new owner with a main registered dog to do the right thing, then why the hell is a breeder selling to a person they can't trust anyway. Is it ok to sell a limited register puppy to an untrustworthy applicant, what gives there???. If the breeders major concern is all this indiscriminant breeding selling on main register, they are obviously selling to anyone in that case, because if they sold to people they had confidence in their intentions for the puppies future life, it wouldn't matter, would it???.

[Black Bronson]

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them.

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

Risk is you as a buyer NOT doing your research.... like buying a puppy with the parents not health tested or you not given papers for the tests from the parents! If you haven't got the time to research and find a ethical breeder.

If they promise you papers, GET IT IN WRITING in a contract.

You as a buyer have the rights to see the breeders prefix papers and membership details of the CC of the state they are in.

What I said isn't going to get papers for the pup, but seriously people need to research.... I Read the breeders section all the time about emails and puppy inquiries. They get emails daily asking HOW MUCH?, not are the parents tested? What are their temps like? Will the pups be on main or limited register? Are they suitable for showing? Is there limitations on the sales? How much grooming is involved? What age will they be fully grown? Would you recommend this breed with young kids?

BB I think it is time for you to do your research....

I don't get caught Nickojoy and I do plenty of research to find the right breeder with the dogs I require. What I have found recently though, the breeders with the "attitude" and all the restrictions actually don't have the best dogs, and think they are too good to keep working at it hard enough and the more humble enthusiastic breeders are passing them by

well you need to have some respect for them... If they do not have the "best dogs" and they are placing the pups on "restrictions" instead of everyone on the MAIN register GOOD ON THEM.... there should be more of them.....

It's fine if you like hoop jumping for an average dog

You are NOT HEARING WHAT I AM SAYING, you need to go back to the puppy listings and research each breed, there are too many breeders out there selling every pup on the main register, these are not all of quality, so if one or two breeders more do it, it is better for the breed, at least the average puppy then isn't bred from.

This "quality" definition needs to be addressed a bit I think There is a difference between quality and breed faulty. Of course a breed faulty puppy should be on limited register...........I have one of those with a coat fault, but if the puppy is of good quality, it doesn't have to be pick of the litter or have the potential to win a show to be a good enough example for main register.

There is a show with 40 entries for example and say the top 3 are excellent. Should the other 37 be placed on limited register after that show being poorer quality than the top 3???. Are we saying in reality that the 37 dogs of lower score should have never been placed on main register in the first place???.

[Wazzat Xolo]

aaahhhh

Bugger it whats the point!!

I have my standards, ethics and morals and I KNOW they are right!!

have fun all!

Edited May 29, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo