Luring Vs 'guide, Show, Place'

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Lots of dogs can't target right away- especially if they have had no training before and simply don't understand the learning concept- i find that with these dogs using G/S/P to give me the opportunity to reward really quickly, multiple times- is easier for them to understand initially.

I find the dogs that are most reliable with their drops had at least 2 different methods used with them at varying stages.

yep, my dog has really reliable drops and was taught this more than 2 ways. because sometimes when i upped the distractions i needed to train her differently.

she is rock solid with drops and most other things that make her an easy dog to be around.

i think dogs are like us, they are different and one learning method will not work for all of them.

if you educate people say with many pupils in a room, you will need to deliver the information in about 4 different ways to ensure everyone in that room has learnt that info. i think dogs are similar and need to be taught in the way that makes the information "stick"

[JulesP]

A group class at a dog club is also not the best environment for teaching shaping. If you only do luring you are also fairly buggered if the dog/puppy will not eat the treat for whatever reason.

[pipsqueak]

Pick me up off the floor and dust me off. I don't know why I'm so gob-smacked.

Welcome to my world! My girl is one who struggled to learn targetting. She is confident and reliable now, but boy did it take a while. I actually had to start with me making the target move to contact her nose and rewarding her for that - otherwise we would just sit there forever.

I think that there is a large difference in dogs that have been trained positively, with free-shaping and targeting from the time they were pups and older dogs who haven't had any training at all. Yes, some of the older dogs will still pick up things quickly and think for themselves, but many won't. My "girl" has this attitude of "why bother", I'm quite happy sitting here. I think is is extremely low drive/low motiviation... or it could just be that I'm a lousy trainer!

[corvus]

yep, my dog has really reliable drops and was taught this more than 2 ways. because sometimes when i upped the distractions i needed to train her differently.

Really? How come? The only thing I've ever changed when I up the distractions is the reward rate and the criteria. The method stays the same. I find reliability to be a function of reward history more than anything. I don't think I understand this idea of using two ways to train one behaviour. If you need two ways the first one didn't work?

I think I'm going to go crawl back under the rock I have apparently been living under. This thread is doing my head in.

[Pippi]

yep, my dog has really reliable drops and was taught this more than 2 ways. because sometimes when i upped the distractions i needed to train her differently.

Really? How come? The only thing I've ever changed when I up the distractions is the reward rate and the criteria. The method stays the same. I find reliability to be a function of reward history more than anything. I don't think I understand this idea of using two ways to train one behaviour. If you need two ways the first one didn't work?

I think I'm going to go crawl back under the rock I have apparently been living under. This thread is doing my head in.

Hey Corvus, I'm already under that rock and its a full house here.....

[Aidan]

Pick me up off the floor and dust me off. I don't know why I'm so gob-smacked.

Welcome to my world! My girl is one who struggled to learn targetting. She is confident and reliable now, but boy did it take a while. I actually had to start with me making the target move to contact her nose and rewarding her for that - otherwise we would just sit there forever.

I think that there is a large difference in dogs that have been trained positively, with free-shaping and targeting from the time they were pups and older dogs who haven't had any training at all. Yes, some of the older dogs will still pick up things quickly and think for themselves, but many won't. My "girl" has this attitude of "why bother", I'm quite happy sitting here.

The first two animals I had trained to target were cats and they picked it up very quickly, but then I tried it on my adult, traditionally trained Golden and it took me literally two weeks before he got the idea. Since then I've trained a lot of dogs (and cats, horses, rabbits and random animals in petting zoos) to target and worked with all sorts of dogs in various emotional states and levels of drive and motivation. I've since realised that what I do is the most important predictor of success, rather than the animal's learning history or temperament which has only a very minor bearing on the outcome. The reason my Golden took so long to learn to target is because targeting is deceptively simple, but teaching it is a skill which must be learned and practiced.

Most importantly the target must not be left 'out there' or you will very quickly teach your dog to just sit there, and then you'll have to use a different target. The next piece of advice is not to click for touching the target at first (unless that is what is offered). If the dog makes any attempt to move, sniff or look at the target you click and treat then, don't ask for any more than that.

Given the extreme cases of shut-down, fearful, anxious or aggressive dogs that I have taught to target I really cannot imagine that there is a dog that I could not teach to target now; but I was a slow starter with this particular behaviour! It works very well in classes too, one of the better things you can teach in a class situation (unlike free-shaping).

[OSoSwift]

So far I haven't had a dog that wasn't food or toy motivated, in fact my Dobe only learnt the dumbell due to the clicker training method I was taught which is essentially targetting. I had worked on it then given up as she went into complete shut down with the previous method I had been taught. She then went on to get her open title.

When I get a dog that I can't train using the methods I do now, I will look for another one. I do not consider myself closed minded or not open to other methods and have helped a friend train her Shepherd using a check chain because she was just not responding to treats. She now will respond to treats and no longer needs the check chain.

Just because I train using a postive lure/shaping method does not mean I am close minded or have a small reference base to form an opinion from.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

yep, my dog has really reliable drops and was taught this more than 2 ways. because sometimes when i upped the distractions i needed to train her differently.

Really? How come? The only thing I've ever changed when I up the distractions is the reward rate and the criteria. The method stays the same. I find reliability to be a function of reward history more than anything. I don't think I understand this idea of using two ways to train one behaviour. If you need two ways the first one didn't work?

I think I'm going to go crawl back under the rock I have apparently been living under. This thread is doing my head in.

because the puppy under distraction lost her food motivation and shut down so i needed to use another method to get her to drop

Edited May 24, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Vickie]

Some people who have experience with only a very small number of dogs might use a method that they prefer and because it works for them, they are unable to imagine the different dogs (and different problems) there are around where the dogs can be very resistant to "a" particular method (or even some particular training tools/aids). And so they herald their preferred method (and/or tool) and often actively resist, argue and pooh hoo other methods (and/or tools) which are less to their liking.

As a "future dog trainer" you will learn that the (IMO) best approach is an open-mind and to explore each dog for the individual that it is. And you've already learned this by such a small sample of dogs. They teach us much, heh?

Totally agree .

I'm sure that each method I have ever used could work for every dog I have ever trained, but there is no doubt that some methods suit some more than others. And why not make it as easy for them as we can? Years ago I was determined that Zeus had to learn something the same way as Noah had, since Noah picked it up so quickly & was so reliable. A solid week later, I gave up & taught Zeus another way. He learnt as quickly & reliably as Noah once I tried the new way. It just simply suited him better & I feeling like an idiot for putting through a week of frustration, simply to prove some stupid point to myself.

I regularly get asked to help solve a problem in agility. My first solution is always to try something that has worked with my dogs. Then something that has worked with another dog & sometimes I make up something totally new..just because I think it will suit the dog I am presented with. The more we try, the more we learn. So long as we are not creating other problems or making things worse...trying new (and sometimes unfashionably old) things will always make us better trainers.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Vickie

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Pick me up off the floor and dust me off. I don't know why I'm so gob-smacked.

Welcome to my world! My girl is one who struggled to learn targetting. She is confident and reliable now, but boy did it take a while. I actually had to start with me making the target move to contact her nose and rewarding her for that - otherwise we would just sit there forever.

I think that there is a large difference in dogs that have been trained positively, with free-shaping and targeting from the time they were pups and older dogs who haven't had any training at all. Yes, some of the older dogs will still pick up things quickly and think for themselves, but many won't. My "girl" has this attitude of "why bother", I'm quite happy sitting here.

The first two animals I had trained to target were cats and they picked it up very quickly, but then I tried it on my adult, traditionally trained Golden and it took me literally two weeks before he got the idea. Since then I've trained a lot of dogs (and cats, horses, rabbits and random animals in petting zoos) to target and worked with all sorts of dogs in various emotional states and levels of drive and motivation. I've since realised that what I do is the most important predictor of success, rather than the animal's learning history or temperament which has only a very minor bearing on the outcome. The reason my Golden took so long to learn to target is because targeting is deceptively simple, but teaching it is a skill which must be learned and practiced.

Most importantly the target must not be left 'out there' or you will very quickly teach your dog to just sit there, and then you'll have to use a different target. The next piece of advice is not to click for touching the target at first (unless that is what is offered). If the dog makes any attempt to move, sniff or look at the target you click and treat then, don't ask for any more than that.

Given the extreme cases of shut-down, fearful, anxious or aggressive dogs that I have taught to target I really cannot imagine that there is a dog that I could not teach to target now; but I was a slow starter with this particular behaviour! It works very well in classes too, one of the better things you can teach in a class situation (unlike free-shaping).

yep i agree. i am just a normal punter who needs to train my dog to be a good citizen so i am sure i am not training correctly.

what i try to do is get my dog to behave as i need her to making sure there is as little frustration on both our parts as possible.

i also need this behaviour to be reliable so i try to make it as solid as possible.

seeing i have had many dogs over many years and they have all been well behaved and happy i cant be doing too much wrong.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Erny]

Just because I train using a postive lure/shaping method does not mean I am close minded or have a small reference base to form an opinion from.

I wouldn't suggest otherwise,RnL. I don't think I've seen you denigrating or scoffing at other training methods, either .

I wasn't sure if the above was a response to my post.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Erny

[poodlefan]

The best trainers acknowledge that a "one size fits all" approach doesn't work with dogs any more than it does with their handlers.

Most of us have preferred methods of training but all it takes is the right dog to make us need to work outside our comfort zone.

The more dogs you train, the more you realise how important having a breadth of knowledge of training techniques matters.

Howard the Whippet and I have started agility. My instructor (BC owner) wanted me to try something with him last week - I said it wouldn't work but we gave it a go.

I think my instructor now knows that that pleasing one's owner is motivation for a BC but with a hound, there had better be something in it for THEM!

Edited May 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[OSoSwift]

Just because I train using a postive lure/shaping method does not mean I am close minded or have a small reference base to form an opinion from.

I wouldn't suggest otherwise,RnL. I don't think I've seen you denigrating or scoffing at other training methods, either .

I wasn't sure if the above was a response to my post.

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

[OSoSwift]

I think my instructor now knows that that pleasing one's owner is motivation for a BC but with a hound, there had better be something in it for THEM!

Ah yes the "look" you get - um yep I CAN do it, but WILL I do it - now that is the question!

[poodlefan]

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

For Whippets, I've not seen a better way to train R&L. They need a pay off. Jerk them around or rouse on them and they sulk and shut down.

Personally I think the rising popularity of positive training is a direct reason for the increase in the variety of breeds doing well in obedience/agility.

[Erny]

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

That's ok then, so long as you realise that I do not and was not denigrating any one's method. I actually concur with you.

I think perhaps in part that negative comments to "positive training" methods aren't really negative to the method itself, but is negative to the people/groups who have pushed it to the point of ad-nausium and who have also, over the years, tried (and in some ways, for some time, succeeded) in making out any one else who believed differently, to be cruel, harsh etc.

So please don't take it to heart and be assured that I was not running down positive training. I love positive training .

Edited May 24, 2010 by Erny

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Not in particular Erny - I guess I am just a bit sensitive due to seeing a few comments of late regarding positive training.

I don't often get riled up, but every now and agian my hackles raise a little bit.

I am of the opinion that you can never stop learning and the day you say your method is the only one and everything else is second best is the day you need a kick up the bum. You can never know everything, and can always learn something, even if it is not what to do.

That's ok then, so long as you realise that I do not and was not denigrating any one's method. I actually concur with you.

I think perhaps in part that negative comments to "positive training" methods aren't really negative to the method itself, but is negative to the people/groups who have pushed it to the point of ad-nausium and who have also, over the years, tried (and in some ways, for some time, succeeded) in making out any one else who believed differently, to be cruel, harsh etc.

So please don't take it to heart and be assured that I was not running down positive training. I love positive training .

totally agree. it gets my back up when people have only one way to train and put people down if they use another method.

i will use whatever method that will work best for the dog i am training at the time. if it isnt working then i look further, research and/or ask a professional trainer for advice.

i never know enough to say i know it all

Edited May 24, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Zug Zug]

Some good points raised here. Yes it's all true too isn't it? Within reason you'll ultimately call on any and all ideas and go with whatever works for that dog.

There are limits, though. We need to be conscious of how much coercion and pressure we place on dogs. Best to think that through both in advance and in response to each dog's reaction while we're training, so we don't inadvertently head down a slippery slope.

I think it is easy to get frustrated while training and use more force than we originally meant to. Maybe that's just me? But I don't think so - I've seen some handlers applying an alarming level of force at times, and you can tell it's because they're angry and frustrated with their dog.

To my mind one of the attractions of lure/shaping approaches is that they don't let that side of the handler's temperament off the leash (so to speak). It's easy to train in a calm and positive way when you're using these methods - but can be harder to stay calm and relaxed when using corrections etc.

But again, each person is different, as is every dog. So while this is true of me (and I am certainly not alone), it may not be true of everyone.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Zug Zug

[poodlefan]

Some good points raised here. Yes it's all true too isn't it? Within reason you'll ultimately call on any and all ideas and go with whatever works for that dog.

There are limits, though. We need to be conscious of how much coercion and pressure we place on dogs.

It pays to remember that it's not only aversive methods that can stress a dog. Most learning involves some stress.

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Personally, I don't care for it. I don't like my dogs to have to guess what I want from them. I prefer to communicate clearly what the desired behaviour is.

Others swear by it. There is no doubt that used well, it can be very effective.

Edited May 24, 2010 by poodlefan

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Some good points raised here. Yes it's all true too isn't it? Within reason you'll ultimately call on any and all ideas and go with whatever works for that dog.

There are limits, though. We need to be conscious of how much coercion and pressure we place on dogs.

It pays to remember that it's not only aversive methods that can stress a dog.

I've seen very stressed dogs trained using free shaping. Frantic offering of already learned behaviours is one side effect of this method used badly.

Personally, I don't care for it. I don't like my dogs to have to guess what I want from them. I prefer to communicate clearly what the desired behaviour is.

Others swear by it. There is no doubt that used well, it can be very effective.

this is my dog. she so wants to please she tries everything. i stopped using this method because she grew less confident when i was using it.

she needs to know what i expect otherwise she stresses.

and so many people are surprised because she is a very calm dog for her breed