Does Desexing Really Make A Difference

[Lucy's mama]

So what would you do to ensure you are not taking those chances? At what age does it cease being mouthing and rough play and become aggression?

[huski]

children are left to deal with an aggressive dog even if it was accidentally. they do not have the capability nor the experience to do this.

:p Are you referring to the OP? Where on earth has it been said the kids are left to deal with the dog on their own??

[Lucy's mama]

gremlins

Edited May 22, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[persephone]

At what age does it cease being mouthing and rough play and become aggression?

Lucy's mamma- I don't think there is an 'age' .

It all depends on the dog's intent when the mouthing/nipping occurs ,IMO.

Puppies can be very loud, rough and mouthy- but not aggressive.

puppies can also be straight-out aggressive. .... from an early age .

Of course, I have NO idea whether your dog is being just forceful and not in control.. or if he is being aggressive.

My opinion only....

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

children are left to deal with an aggressive dog even if it was accidentally. they do not have the capability nor the experience to do this.

:p Are you referring to the OP? Where on earth has it been said the kids are left to deal with the dog on their own??

the OP said it. i am concerned that you are taking this personally

i am also concerned about a possibler injury to a child. you have more information than all of us and are not disclosing it but being quite dismissive of any suggestions or questions.

ok i get the hint, i am leaving this conversation but huski i think you are being very one eyed about this situation.

i really hope the kids dont get injured.

[huski]

The OP never said her kids are left alone to handle the dog. All that was said was that the trainer has recommended the OP avoid putting her kids in a situation where they could get hurt - and you jumped on That with no other knowledge of the dog, the OP or the trainer and assumed the trainer was rubbish and that the OP needed a new one.

I am not taking this personally at all, and I am not sure what information you think I could be withholding. I know the trainer and have had her work with my dogs, so I Know what kind of methods she uses and how capable she is, thus I am in a far better position than you to know if the OP needs a new trainer. What more information would you like? I can show you her website and you can read the story of my dog Micha that's on it if you are so desperate to know more.

How you could know so much about the OP, her dog and the trainer from such little information is beyond me.

[Cosmolo]

I don't mean the dog left unsupervised with that question that has been quoted- it was aimed at BB and was meant to explore the high risk of a poorly timed correction from someone not dealing directly with the dog at the time- in the same room does not mean right next to the dog. Regardless- i think the trainers advice was/ is sound as i have said previously.

Corvus- i am glad i'm not the only one that thought that!!

Listen to and discuss your concerns with your trainer OP- they have seen your dog, understand the situation and to my knowledge, they are open to a range of techniques so i am sure there will be things she can add to your training program to assist you if required.

ETA I don't know why people expect dog trainers/ behaviourists to be able to wave a magic wand- no such wands exist when dealing with a dog AND a family/ handler/ owner dynamic!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Fleuri]

So what would you do to ensure you are not taking those chances? At what age does it cease being mouthing and rough play and become aggression?

During play, I would never let my children play rough with our dog. Ball games and fetch yes but never rough play where the dog is mouthing at them (even as a pup). I think you just never know when a dog might take it to another level. So for me it is better to prevent it.

If the dog is mouthing in anger (or dominance issues) say the child takes dogs toy or touches dogs collor then its a problem already. It needs to be corrected by training the dog, children and parents as soon as possible. This is my Opinion.

Sometimes toddler/children don't tell you when the dog has mouthed them, then dog gets use to doing it to them. So you have to supervise all the time.

[Lucy's mama]

To clarify Fleuri - the kids have never been allowed to rough play with him. I was refering to rough play on behalf of the puppy. From day one if he got mouthy while being patted it was time for him to go into his pen. Same applied for if he chased them in the yard or jumped up etc.

I always have supervised them and continue to.

[Fleuri]

At what age does it cease being mouthing and rough play and become aggression?

I wouldn't know with your dog but if it was my dog I wouldn't put an age, (pup including). Thats just me.

[Black Bronson]

Someone mentioned wondering if he had been hurt by kids

/ I can assure you my children have not hurt him. We have always had pets and they are not rough or cruel with any of them.

He is NOT dog aggressive. He plays with dogs big and small. He has been growled at and he backs off, not fights. He will occasionally fence fight, but put in a yard with the same dog and it's all fun and games.

He has no problems giving over food or toys to anyone. He has always recieved something better in return and usually the original article back as well. I also used to play with his kibble as he was eating and pop nice treats into it at the same time. My son can sit down with an icecream and Banjo will watch every lick intently, but he doesn't try steal it.

I did not bring a dog home, put it in the back yard with the kids and hope for the best.

His behaviour happens when he is excited already. Yesterday he had been put outside by my partner at 5am whe he left or work, when my daughter let him in he was excited and bouncy. Encouraging calm is a part of his training program.

I did ask the question how the OP was taught to handle the situation to get a clearer picture...........but haven't had an answer yet???.

Ummm...yeah. I went and had a training session with the dog, a wine with my dad and put my kids to bed.

When Banjo does this I use a growly 'uh-uh' and put him outside or in his pen. Yeah, pretty weak now but it's carried over from him being a tiny 8 week old.

I'm off for kids activities now, so won't be replying till much later in the day.

This is my opinion: The "uh-uh" is no longer working and he needs a correction to strengthen the "uh-ah" and re-gain his attention. Once you have his attention, I follow through with another command.........here, come, drop and then praise him for obeying the command. The snapping at the kids, I would like to know if they are play bites or if the dog is getting cranky in a dominant fashion???.

[Black Bronson]

Off topic, but does anyone else notice an eerie similarity between BB, Diablo, and Rex? These types seem to come and go on dog forums.

Someone mentioned Rex to me before Corvus............couldn't find a Rex to view his/her posts..........who's Rex anyway

[Red Fox]

I don't mean the dog left unsupervised with that question that has been quoted- it was aimed at BB and was meant to explore the high risk of a poorly timed correction from someone not dealing directly with the dog at the time- in the same room does not mean right next to the dog. Regardless- i think the trainers advice was/ is sound as i have said previously.

Sorry Cosmolo, quoting that line on it's own probably took your statement out of context a bit I didn't mean to, it just struck a chord with me in the fact that I personally would not ever leave a dog (particularly a large breed who may or may not be agressive) alone with kids. If I thought it was a problem I would have that dog crated or next to me on a leash when there were kids around. It's just too much of a risk.

I'm not by any stretch saying that this is the OP's situation though, or that the dog in question is aggressive or that the trainer is wrong/incapable

[Red Fox]

children are left to deal with an aggressive dog even if it was accidentally. they do not have the capability nor the experience to do this.

Are you referring to the OP? Where on earth has it been said the kids are left to deal with the dog on their own??

Here Huski

Yep - I was in bed half asleep for this mornings incident. My daughter had inadvertantly let him inside and she knew he was supposed to be outside or in his puppy pen untill I am up to supervise, so she wanted to take him outside.

I agree asking the kids to use an aversive could just cause his behaviour to escalate.

LM, is your dog crate trained? Could you possibly keep him in a crate overnight rather than the pen to ensure that this doesn't happen again?

Sounds like your daughter was just being a kid and trying to do the right thing by letting him outside, and yep it's hard to watch them all the time. A crate might help with that.

I think BB may have meant that you should correct your dog when he mouths the kids, not the kids to correct him themselves. Well that was my interpretation of it anyway. Of course letting the kids correct the dog themselves is a BAD idea...!

The best thing you can do (IMO) is to manage the situation by knowing where your dog is at all times -crating him or keeping him on leash inside (tie the leash to your waist if you have to), and not allowing the kids near him unless you are right there to control any interactions - while continuing to work with your trainer to solve the problem.

Of course this is all easy in theory, but not so much when you have a family to deal with and a household to run! Do your best and I'm sure you'll get through it. Good luck

[huski]

children are left to deal with an aggressive dog even if it was accidentally. they do not have the capability nor the experience to do this.

Are you referring to the OP? Where on earth has it been said the kids are left to deal with the dog on their own??

Here Huski

Yep - I was in bed half asleep for this mornings incident. My daughter had inadvertantly let him inside and she knew he was supposed to be outside or in his puppy pen untill I am up to supervise, so she wanted to take him outside.

I agree asking the kids to use an aversive could just cause his behaviour to escalate.

Ah ok - to me that didn't sound intentional, but rather an accident and that the OP does not normally leave her kids alone with the dog.

[Black Bronson]

Not sure why people are bothering to argue with Black Bronson - have you not figured out yet they are the expert when it comes to inter alia GSDs, training, aggressive dogs and desexing?

I realised I had to be humble and recognise my own inexperience when I read this post from them:

This behavioural perception of entire males is blown out of all proportion. The only time that a genuine issue can develop with entire males is in the presence of a bitch in season..........other than that, there is no difference. Desexing isn't a quick fix for a lack of training and in many cases, desexing and specialised training occur at the same time and the desexing get's the recognition for the improvement that the training created too often. Many a time I have seen fear aggressive dogs worsen after desexing and is not the ultimate fix over a proper training schedule for behavioural issues.

Funnily enough Danois, it's a bit like the show scene isn't it???. Unless you belong to the circle of people experinced at posting on the forum, you get arguments Many a time a newbie member will make a comment and automatically they are wrong as the seasoned posters slip into them. The seasoned poster will make an identical comment on another thread and get commended for an excellent post. Perhaps the OP should just desex the dog and let him interact with the kids contrary to my thoughts, desexing should fix the behavioral problem if my belief is wrong hey

[Black Bronson]

I don't mean the dog left unsupervised with that question that has been quoted- it was aimed at BB and was meant to explore the high risk of a poorly timed correction from someone not dealing directly with the dog at the time- in the same room does not mean right next to the dog. Regardless- i think the trainers advice was/ is sound as i have said previously.

Corvus- i am glad i'm not the only one that thought that!!

Listen to and discuss your concerns with your trainer OP- they have seen your dog, understand the situation and to my knowledge, they are open to a range of techniques so i am sure there will be things she can add to your training program to assist you if required.

ETA I don't know why people expect dog trainers/ behaviourists to be able to wave a magic wand- no such wands exist when dealing with a dog AND a family/ handler/ owner dynamic!

Because that is what you are paying a trainer/behaviourist for Cosmolo...........results not excuses. Has the dog been tried with an E collar for remote stimulation when the handler is not right next to the dog???, An E Collar would be an excellent training tool for this situation

[persephone]

An E Collar would be an excellent training tool for this situation

and may I suggest that ,as none of us have actually seen the dog's and childrens' body language/interactions we don't really know what "this situation" is .

ETA I don't know why people expect dog trainers/ behaviourists to be able to wave a magic wand- no such wands exist when dealing with a dog AND a family/ handler/ owner dynamic!

good point , cos.It takes time and effort on everyone's part.

I also questioned the tactic of having the kids avoid doing things with the dog... however ,it seems this a temporary thing until the trainer sees them again... with , hopefully, some new strategies to help .

Lucy's mamma- fingers crossed for you

[Lucy's mama]

LM, is your dog crate trained? Could you possibly keep him in a crate overnight rather than the pen to ensure that this doesn't happen again?

Sounds like your daughter was just being a kid and trying to do the right thing by letting him outside, and yep it's hard to watch them all the time. A crate might help with that.

Yes, he is crate trained. He has his pen inside because it's easy to fold up out of the way, and his crate on the verandah. He sleeps in the pen, then at 5.00am or so my husband lets him out to toilet then locks him on the verandah. My daughter let him in going outside to get something. She is supposed to use the back door if he is locked up but 'forgot'.

The new arrangement is as you suggested - for my partner to crate him when he leaves.

BB- no, I don't believe it is aggressive snapping, (he has never left even a scratch or mark on anyone since he was tiny) more he is excited and reverts back to playful nipping/mouthing, which is still completely unacceptable and could land him and me in hot water if he does it to the wrong person. I'm also worried it could become something else as he learns that putting his teeth on people works. It does happen mostly in relation to his collar being held when he is already excited though. If he is not in a silly puppy bouncy mood he is very tolerant.

I am not very good at explaining things so understand you will not have a full picture of what is going on.

[Cosmolo]

So BB, do you think trainers should be able to fix problems no matter what? Its not just about the dog. We are sometimes ask if we give guarantees- and we always say no. Its not like a plumber who comes in, fixes the plumbing and leaves and you leave the plumbing alone. There are inputs into the dog other than what the trainer does in a 1-2 hour session! A trainer can come in, influence the dog to a great degree in one session but changing people takes longer and limitations, prior learning and dynamics often have an effect.

I love e collars- but i cannot imagine using one in this situation.

It sounds like a good plan OP to have the dog crated when your partner leaves.