Does Desexing Really Make A Difference

[Black Bronson]

I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program.

I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak.

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak

Whats wrong with clicker training? By the way the clicker is only a marker and you could couple it with a negative if that's what floats your boat???

Have you ever tried it?

And as Huski knows the behaviouralist that is helping and you don't, then maybe, just maybe Huski actually does know what she is talking about.

I am sorry but the holier than thou attitude is sometimes a little wearing.

Huski is a good trainer, I like her work that I have seen on videos, but I don't think aggression is her specialty, different behaviour, different training and control.

[OSoSwift]

Huski isn't training the dog, nor has she given the OP particular suggestions she has mearly suggested that the behaviouralist does actually know what she is talking about. Maybe the behaviouralist has got experience with dogs and situations as per the OP. There are many people around who do have experience and are very good at working with such dogs.

[huski]

Huski is a good trainer, I like her work that I have seen on videos, but I don't think aggression is her specialty, different behaviour, different training and control.

I'm not sure I would say anything is my specialty

But the behaviourist the OP is working with helped me tremendously with my dog aggressive dog, just as she has helped many others, aggression is an area she does specialise in and I would suggest she has worked with more aggressive dogs than you have... which is getting off topic as that is not the problem the OP is having anyway.

ETA: And whilst she has also helped me a lot with Daisy as well as Micha especially in the early days when she was a real challenge and we were going through an awful adolescent period, I've worked with a different trainer for the training in drive stuff we do (just in case you were using Daisy as a guide).

Edited May 21, 2010 by huski

[ILK]

I haven't read the entire thread, but if Banjo has testosterone issues desexing will definately help. If a child has done something to him that was innappropriate that has hurt or annoyed him there may be something more underlying & sinister in the dogs mind.

[Black Bronson]

Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs

Actually, yes, one of the things we discussed was walking him further away from barking dogs so he doesn't have a chance to practice (and get a pay off from) bad behaviour. But at the same time, we are working up to walking closer to them. It is not avoid it for ever. Makes sense and is working well.

I really did want oppinions on whether desexing was likely to make a difference. Thank you to everyone who answered that.

I am happy with my trainer. I feel her idea is to keep the kids safe while I get a better handle on him and go from there.

An aversive delivered by the parent in that situation would likely be poorly timed as they are unlikely to be 100% focussed on the dog every time the situation occurs.

Yep - I was in bed half asleep for this mornings incident. My daughter had inadvertantly let him inside and she knew he was supposed to be outside or in his puppy pen untill I am up to supervise, so she wanted to take him outside.

I agree asking the kids to use an aversive could just cause his behaviour to escalate.

Out of interest, what have you done when the dog mouths the kids which sounds like dominance aggression, what instructions have you been given to do when the dog reacts???

[Cosmolo]

BB- did you miss my question?

[Black Bronson]

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak :D

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound.

I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression?

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread.

What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure

Edited May 21, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Black Bronson]

What kind of correction would you suggest be delivered black bronson? By the child? Genuine question.

Of course not by the child. The primary handler needs to set the boundaries naturally

[Black Bronson]

Huski isn't training the dog, nor has she given the OP particular suggestions she has mearly suggested that the behaviouralist does actually know what she is talking about. Maybe the behaviouralist has got experience with dogs and situations as per the OP. There are many people around who do have experience and are very good at working with such dogs.

What Huski is doing, is telling the OP it's all good and the trainer is doing a great job...........I disagree, I think the trainer is messing around with a dangerous situation and doesn't know how to correct it effectively.........just my opinion

[OSoSwift]

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak :D

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound.

I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression?

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread.

What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure

I think a trainer that has any idea what they are doing would not need to go so far as stringing a dog up - I know it was done........about 30 years ago, but seriously that is what you deem the correct way to deal with it.

I am thankful I did not do that my my young Dobe who had been harassed by small children, than started seeing them as something to gorwl at. Amazingly I managed to get her to the point she liked children and didn't so much as lick them without stringing her up. Oh and I also had never heard of clicker training at that stage.

I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues

Edited May 21, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[OSoSwift]

Huski isn't training the dog, nor has she given the OP particular suggestions she has mearly suggested that the behaviouralist does actually know what she is talking about. Maybe the behaviouralist has got experience with dogs and situations as per the OP. There are many people around who do have experience and are very good at working with such dogs.

What Huski is doing, is telling the OP it's all good and the trainer is doing a great job...........I disagree, I think the trainer is messing around with a dangerous situation and doesn't know how to correct it effectively.........just my opinion

And I appreciate that you have an opinion different to mine - that is all good. I am just not into you can have an opinion different to mine....even if you are wrong. That I find obnoxious and arrogent.

To the OP, I hope that when you speak to your trainer that you get the help you need to stop this behaviour.

I am of the opinion that if you are going to get him desexed anyway, then if he is 6 months or older I would do it. Then you know that a surge in hormones is not contributing to the issue.

[~Shepherd~]

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak :D

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound.

I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression?

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread.

What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as the other corrective measure

Bloody hell BB, you are so slap bang about everything. I for one certainly dont take your posts seriously considering you think a well behaved, social obedient GSD is faulty.

TO the OP, I have kids not as old as yours and I admire the work you have put in. If it was me with my young tribe I would consider re homing as I have too many kids coming and going in my house from 0-5.

Kids often dont remember all the rules and unless your eyes are on interactions permanently I'd consider the situation too unsafe. Obviously my lot are a lot younger.

Good on you and I hope the situation eases up for you.

[huski]

Huski isn't training the dog, nor has she given the OP particular suggestions she has mearly suggested that the behaviouralist does actually know what she is talking about. Maybe the behaviouralist has got experience with dogs and situations as per the OP. There are many people around who do have experience and are very good at working with such dogs.

What Huski is doing, is telling the OP it's all good and the trainer is doing a great job...........I disagree, I think the trainer is messing around with a dangerous situation and doesn't know how to correct it effectively.........just my opinion

And you are basing that on ONE brief comment that about a behaviour that has just resurfaced. As Cosmolo posted earlier, sometimes there are no quick fixes for behaviourial problems and it's not about the dog but what the family and owner is capable of doing. You have no idea how the OP has been told to correct the dog for this behaviour, you have no idea the extent of the training program the dog is on, nor what the actual problem is.

I know the trainer in real life, I have seen her work with dogs including my own, I am 110% confident of her ability to help the OP. You haven't even seen the dog, yet this trainer has, how can you possibly think you know what the problem is or how best to fix it when all you have to go on are a couple of posts in an internet forum? How about you come meet the dog, and the trainer, and then share with us your "expert" opinion?

[huski]

I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues

I don't know of any reputable trainer who would use it as a training method, RnL. And that includes trainers who happily use all kinds of aversives, from e-collars to prongs to leash corrections etc.

[Cosmolo]

And this is why dog owners think that trainers that give corrections are extremists who hang dogs etc.. There is a whole lot of in between not correcting at all, and hanging dogs "choking them out". Even if it was the right thing to do (which i don't think it is at all), how many people do you honestly think are willing to and capable of doing it?

What would you suggest for the times when the adult is not there, not close at hand etc?

[OSoSwift]

I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues

I don't know of any reputable trainer who would use it as a training method, RnL. And that includes trainers who happily use all kinds of aversives, from e-collars to prongs to leash corrections etc.

I have to agree Huski. I do know of one person who did it many many years ago after a large male Dobe flew them when they had hold of the lead and he was intent on take Their face off. It was done for self preservation only.

I have never heard of anyone, even corrections based trainers that would advocate such a technique.

That is canyons away from an adequate correction when it is required.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Cosmolo]

There is a huge difference between holding a dog out and away from you on a lead to prevent yourself from being bitten, and using 'choking the dog out' as a correction.

[Fleuri]

Whilst your pup is being rewarded when he intimidates your children and possibly you also, by getting away with it, this behaviour will become permanently instilled and entrenched and will escalate. The dog is not a bad dog. the dog needs to be shown that this behaviour is not acceptable. And if you do not know how to do this, get professional assistance.

Though you are doing a lot of the very basic steps in showing your dog who is pack leader, he is probably just going through the motions as he thinks it is a bit of a joke, it sounds to me as though he thinks the kids are way below him in the pack and he wishes it to stay that way. This is where you will have to step in, as like you say, the kids are not at the point where they will be emotionally or physically powerful enough to assert themselves over your boy.

It is up to you to ensure your dog knows the kids are above him in pack status.

Agree with pers, get help, get it now or you will all be paying the price. 8 months is way too long for this behaviour to be going on and getting worse.

+2

My mini Schnauzer showed since of dominance at a very young age (but never as bad as your pup with that attitude against the children) he was desexed at six months but he is still the same. Sometimes I still have to remind him that I am the boss.

I have three children and he used to/ and sometimes still trys to be above the youngest (7 year old turning 8) in the pack. My dog is almost 9 years old.

He sees my husband as 1st , me 2nd, older boys 3rd in the pack. I had to teach my youngest boy to tell him what to do. And I had to teach him to be more assertive and say No! loudly if Mambo was jumping on him or trying to take his food. I also had to make sure Mambo understood that he was last in the pack.

I would grawl at him if he ever tied anything with my youngest. I use to get my son to take the dogs plate away from him under my supervison (right over him, watching) just so he will get the massage that youngest child is above him. But my youngest also had to tell him what to do (sit, come, No!) Otherwise the dog might think "yeh! let him get away with it but only when mums around". I think he got the massage. So far so good.

You can't allow him to act like that with the children. And avoiding it is not teaching him not to do it.

I am no expert please don't try my techniques as it might not be the right thing for your dog.

If my dog was doing the things your pup is doing, I would call an expert trainer or find him another home with someone that can handle him and teach him.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Fleuri

[Black Bronson]

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak :D

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound.

I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression?

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread.

What's the OP on here asking advice for when all the right things are supposedly being addressed correctly???. If it was all working well (which obviously it's not), there would be no reason to post about it???. Snapping at and mouthing the kids is a serious misbehaviour IMO that needs to be stopped FAST and it's not a behaviour I would mess around with given the dangerous level that it could escalate to. I would hang a dog up for that..........choke it out and teach the dog that aggression towards anything results in a severe unpleasant correction it will remember. Or, you could mess around with behaviour until the dog bites the kids and send it to rainbow bridge as an alternative corrective measure

I think a trainer that has any idea what they are doing would not need to go so far as stinging a dog up - I know it was done........about 30 years ago, but seriously that is what you deem the correct way to deal with it.

I am thankful I did not do that my my young Dobe who had been harassed by small children, than started seeing them as something to gorwl at. Amazingly I managed to get her to the point she liked children and didn't so much as lick them without stringing her up. Oh and I also had never heard of clicker training at that stage.

I am glad the trainers I know are not into stringing dogs up as a solution for the dogs training issues

No...........why mess around and start off soft then increase the corrective measure when the soft approach isn't working???. Snapping at the kids with aggression isn't just naughty play, it needs to be knocked on the head once and for all unless you would prefer to gamble with a kids disfigured face when you get it wrong. Go in hard, correct the misbehaviour and get it done and dusted and move on.

Same goes for the dog that pulls on the leash...........6 months later after every traditional collar, head collar and harness has been tried unsuccessfully, the dog ends up on a prong. If it's a heavy puller, put in on a prong straight up and teach it how to walk nicely in 20 minutes. Too much messing around and productive training time being wasted trying to avoid an aversive as some dogs need aversive measures, and a good trainer knows when and where an aversive is best.

[corvus]

I decided it wasn't wise to use confrontational training methods with pushy dogs after a hairy experience with a small breed 12 week old puppy of all things. I provoked him by pushing a matter and he tried to attack me. Given, he turned out to be an emotionally unstable dog with a rather proactive, inflexible coping style and he never tried again with me, but the lesson was, I think, valid nonetheless. If you piss off a dog they can suddenly decide to try to hurt you, and if it's hard to stop a small, 12 week old puppy it's only going to get harder. I'm a human with a big fat forebrain. I think I can come up with some smarter tactics for dealing with an animal that can hurt me than provoking it to hurt me and hoping it is too intimidated to try. Says the girl with an "animals that have bitten me" list...