Does Desexing Really Make A Difference

[W Sibs]

I think you should get a behaviourist in to come and help you guys out.

Charlie was desexed at 6-7 months, and it didn't changed him aside that he no longer violates the big stuff duck we have at home name 'Ducky'. His personality and attitude still remains the same though.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

She has not said they can not be involved - they can pat him on the side or under his chin and throw a ball for him ect. I don't want this to be about bagging the trainer.

but the trainer is supposed to be helping you but from what you have told us there is no plan for how the dog will be shown that his behaviour is wrong.

supposing you are following your trainers advice, it is clearly not working so the trainers methods will be questioned.

you posted here for help which we are trying to give you so all things will be discussed.

something must not be working for you if you posted here instead of talking to your trainer.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[huski]

I think you should get a behaviourist in to come and help you guys out.

The OP is already seeing a very reputable behaviourist.

Lucy'sMama, have you talked to the trainer recently about his behaviour towards the kids and how it is still occuring/not improving? I am 110% confident, as I am sure you are too, that she will be able to help you with this problem. One of the most important things is to make sure you communicate with her regularly and clearly so she can know what is working and what isn't.

[huski]

something must not be working for you if you posted here instead of talking to your trainer.

How so? She already said she will be talking to the trainer about it and that she will be seeing her for another session. The OP wasn't posted for training advice, she was asking about how desexing may or may not effect the dog's behaviour.

[Lucy's mama]

No, I haven't yet Husky. Overall things are a lot better, this behaviour only resurfaced in the last two days, but we do have the kids avoiding doing the things that make him snap or mouth. I have emailed for a session next week though.

You are right - I was asking about desexing and temperment, not training advice.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

something must not be working for you if you posted here instead of talking to your trainer.

How so? She already said she will be talking to the trainer about it and that she will be seeing her for another session. The OP wasn't posted for training advice, she was asking about how desexing may or may not effect the dog's behaviour.

hmpf that is a very narrow view of what the OP was talking about.

i would be very concerned at any dog that was mouthing children as this behaviour can escalate.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I think you should get a behaviourist in to come and help you guys out.

The OP is already seeing a very reputable behaviourist.

Lucy'sMama, have you talked to the trainer recently about his behaviour towards the kids and how it is still occuring/not improving? I am 110% confident, as I am sure you are too, that she will be able to help you with this problem. One of the most important things is to make sure you communicate with her regularly and clearly so she can know what is working and what isn't.

you obviously know something we dont

[huski]

I think you should get a behaviourist in to come and help you guys out.

The OP is already seeing a very reputable behaviourist.

Lucy'sMama, have you talked to the trainer recently about his behaviour towards the kids and how it is still occuring/not improving? I am 110% confident, as I am sure you are too, that she will be able to help you with this problem. One of the most important things is to make sure you communicate with her regularly and clearly so she can know what is working and what isn't.

you obviously know something we dont

You're quite right, I know which behaviourist the OP is consulting with and I know her very well.

Lucy'sMama:

No, I haven't yet Husky. Overall things are a lot better, this behaviour only resurfaced in the last two days, but we do have the kids avoiding doing the things that make him snap or mouth. I have emailed for a session next week though.

Sounds good - perhaps other posters in this thread can take the fact you haven't yet had a chat with the trainer about this behaviour resurfacing into account instead of immediately questioning them and telling you to find a new one.

Edited May 21, 2010 by huski

[Cosmolo]

Can i also just add that trainers/ behaviourists are not miracle workers and cannot change things in an instant for the people handling the dog- they can often change the dog, in part, within a session but as dogs are very context and people specific- the change carrying over with the family often takes longer.

While the dog is undergoing an attitude adjustment, i believe it IS a sensible thing for the trainer to advise that the child basically avoid confrontation with the dog- these confrontations cannot be won by children!! Number one rule- avoid confrontation at all costs but once you're in one, never, ever lose- this is what the trainer is trying to avoid- the dog having repeated success of mouthing/ snapping winning and achieving the desired result.

I would add some counter conditioning to the training if its not there already, as Corvus said this would likely be very helpful and even with a childs average timing- can still work well.

[huski]

Can i also just add that trainers/ behaviourists are not miracle workers and cannot change things in an instant for the people handling the dog- they can often change the dog, in part, within a session but as dogs are very context and people specific- the change carrying over with the family often takes longer.

While the dog is undergoing an attitude adjustment, i believe it IS a sensible thing for the trainer to advise that the child basically avoid confrontation with the dog- these confrontations cannot be won by children!! Number one rule- avoid confrontation at all costs but once you're in one, never, ever lose- this is what the trainer is trying to avoid- the dog having repeated success of mouthing/ snapping winning and achieving the desired result.

I would add some counter conditioning to the training if its not there already, as Corvus said this would likely be very helpful and even with a childs average timing- can still work well.

Well said Cos - I agree with you totally.

We are also hardly getting a complete picture of the OP's training program, considering also that the behaviour has just resurfaced and she hasn't yet been able to talk to the trainer about it and what to do next.

I try to avoid putting my DA dog in a situation where he is going to aggress, that does not mean I do not know how to handle him when he does, but that it is always better to do my best NOT to put him in that situation, for many reasons. That also doesn't mean there aren't many other things we do and have done that has improved his behaviour dramatically.

[OSoSwift]

Would it be possible to put a basket muzzle (plastic ones)on him (obviously he will need to get used to it) so that he can pant, drink but cannot actually mouth or nip the kids? He will probably attempt to but as he cannot they will get more confidence around him?

Just a thought

[Black Bronson]

She has not said they can not be involved - they can pat him on the side or under his chin and throw a ball for him ect. I don't want this to be about bagging the trainer.

but the trainer is supposed to be helping you but from what you have told us there is no plan for how the dog will be shown that his behaviour is wrong.

supposing you are following your trainers advice, it is clearly not working so the trainers methods will be questioned.

you posted here for help which we are trying to give you so all things will be discussed.

something must not be working for you if you posted here instead of talking to your trainer.

I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

[huski]

I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program.

I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak.

Edited May 21, 2010 by huski

[Cosmolo]

And black bronson, what do you suggest in terms of an aversive that can be delivered by a CHILD? A child cannot deliver proper corrections NOR can they deal with the escalation that this dog would likely have when its expectations are challenged. An aversive delivered by the parent in that situation would likely be poorly timed as they are unlikely to be 100% focussed on the dog every time the situation occurs.

Seriously guys- training is not all about the dog. Its about the owner, the handler, the family and what they are capable of and confident in delivering!! Just because i might deal with something in a certain way with my own dog doesn't mean everyone else can do that.

I am pretty sure i know who the trainer is too, and they are not a 'purely positive' trainer.

[Black Bronson]

I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program.

I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak.

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak

Edited May 21, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Black Bronson]

And black bronson, what do you suggest in terms of an aversive that can be delivered by a CHILD? A child cannot deliver proper corrections NOR can they deal with the escalation that this dog would likely have when its expectations are challenged. An aversive delivered by the parent in that situation would likely be poorly timed as they are unlikely to be 100% focussed on the dog every time the situation occurs.

Seriously guys- training is not all about the dog. Its about the owner, the handler, the family and what they are capable of and confident in delivering!! Just because i might deal with something in a certain way with my own dog doesn't mean everyone else can do that.

I am pretty sure i know who the trainer is too, and they are not a 'purely positive' trainer.

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

[OSoSwift]

I would say that the trainer is not confident in correcting the behaviour and has gone the avoidence routine. Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs Personally, I would use negative reinforcement to correct that behaviour, but in these circumstances, I would prefer a trainer who will use aversives when required and be cautious of the purely positive trainers with these type of behaviours who are often out of their depth.

Wow that's so far off the mark it's not even funny - but good to see that you know so much about a trainer you've never met, and have no idea what is actually involved in the OP's training program.

I'm sure you are aware that for some dogs attempting to correct them when they are displaying peak aggression is pointless because their adrenaline is so high their pain threshold changes and they don't even register the correction - there are many benefits in avoiding situations where an aggressive dog goes into drive peak.

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak

Whats wrong with clicker training? By the way the clicker is only a marker and you could couple it with a negative if that's what floats your boat???

Have you ever tried it?

And as Huski knows the behaviouralist that is helping and you don't, then maybe, just maybe Huski actually does know what she is talking about.

I am sorry but the holier than thou attitude is sometimes a little wearing.

[Lucy's mama]

Bit like your dog lunges at other dogs on the footpath and the trainer suggests to cross the road to avoid the other dogs

Actually, yes, one of the things we discussed was walking him further away from barking dogs so he doesn't have a chance to practice (and get a pay off from) bad behaviour. But at the same time, we are working up to walking closer to them. It is not avoid it for ever. Makes sense and is working well.

I really did want oppinions on whether desexing was likely to make a difference. Thank you to everyone who answered that.

I am happy with my trainer. I feel her idea is to keep the kids safe while I get a better handle on him and go from there.

An aversive delivered by the parent in that situation would likely be poorly timed as they are unlikely to be 100% focussed on the dog every time the situation occurs.

Yep - I was in bed half asleep for this mornings incident. My daughter had inadvertantly let him inside and she knew he was supposed to be outside or in his puppy pen untill I am up to supervise, so she wanted to take him outside.

I agree asking the kids to use an aversive could just cause his behaviour to escalate.

[huski]

Put your clicker training books away Huski and do a training session with us and I will change your mind very quickly how to handle a security dog driven by civil aggression and fighting drive at it's peak

Why are you so condescending? I don't even use a clicker. I have had the privilege of working with trainers who have vast experience, much more than you do, with working security/PP/police dogs etc and I am more than confident their advice and knowledge regarding aggression in dogs is sound.

I am not saying that handling a dog exhibiting peak aggression is impossible, but talking about the process you would undergo to train aggressive dogs. I'm not talking about security dogs driven by civil aggression either. Do you honestly think that waiting until an aggressive dog is in drive peak, functioning from the lower cortex of the brain, is really the optimum time to teach the dog it has options other than aggression?

The dog has probably never appreciated the effects of an aversive in it's life and could do with a couple of good corrections with that behaviour, don't you think???.

Considering the trainer the OP is consulting with has taught me how to deliver appropriate corrections to my own dogs I can assure you that you are talking utter crap. Why are you arguing and questioning the people who actually know this trainer in real life? You can't possible have a clue what kind of trainer they are from one statement, regarding avoiding situations where the kids could get hurt, in this thread.

Edited May 21, 2010 by huski

[Cosmolo]

What kind of correction would you suggest be delivered black bronson? By the child? Genuine question.