Does Desexing Really Make A Difference

[Lucy's mama]

Banjo is 8 months and I had planned not to desex till he was around 18 onths or so. I'm not sure where I stand on the early de-sexing debate, but figured if leaving him entire for a bit longer had no documented effects then I might as well.

Now he is a marvelous dog in many ways. His energy levels are not a problem. We have no digging or chewing issues, he is smart and enjoys training, he gets along well with other dogs, both big and small. Allthough he can be rude straining at the leash to get to them, he approaches them nicely when off-lead.

Now for the bad bit - he doesn't like the kids handling him. Patting - fine. Playing - I can't allow anymore in case he snaps or mouths. I can't even say 'Jo, put Banjo out for me honey' because he gives her the hard stare and walks away when she tells him to do something, and she can't touch him to make him or he will snap or mouth her.

Our trainer gave us lots of help and I am very happy with her advice and will be talking to her again about this too. Basically, we just need to avoid the kids doing anything that might make him snap or mouth them. No cuddles, no touching his collar, no getting down on his level, etc.

This is fine, but he is supposed to be a family dog, not just my dog who we have to be constantly wary of and on the ball with.

So, we are doing NILIF, TOT, Training daily (both obedience and fun stuff like 'catch' and 'sing') and attending obedience class.

Yet his attitude towards the kids continues. My daughter broke the rules this morning and took hold of his collar, he jumped up and mouthed her arm. No growling or overt signs of aggression that I recognise, just jumped up towards her face, she kept hold and pushed him down away from her face and he chewed her arm.

So, I am going to take him in for desexing, but am wondering if it is really likely to help or does it more just help excess energy or is it just a myth that it helps behaviour?

[Starkehre]

Lucy's mama, I doubt desexing Banjo will alter the issues you are having even minorly. I doubt at this age you would even see a difference in his energy levels from desexing now.

These are not testosterone issues, but cheeky adolescence, testing the waters and pushing the boundaries. Most young dogs would probably be trying on all the same stuff. It is a training issue, not testosterone.

Desexing can alter behaviours, but only when these behaviours are almost solely driven by testosterone, ie challening other dogs and wishing to mate bitches etc.

Yes, Banjo is supposed to be a family dog, and he is. And he will be a great family dog, but much work and patience needs to be put into all puppies, particularly when children are involved.

Best of luck with him. Personally I would wait to desex, but that is just my opinion.

Edited May 20, 2010 by dyzney

[becks]

How old are your children? Are they old enough to do some training in class with your dog?

[sas]

In my personal experiencing, desexing has improved some attitude problems in dogs that didn't handle their hormones very well however training is always the best cure i.m.o.

My personal opinion is that if there is a dog not handling it's hormones well then give it the chop regardless of age for its' own sake and its' owners sake.

In your case I don't believe desexing will assist, I believe this dog needs to be put in his place and recieve appropriate training to be around the kids, I don't believe "Avoid the kids" is a very good method employed by the trainer.

[persephone]

Basically, we just need to avoid the kids doing anything that might make him snap or mouth them. No cuddles, no touching his collar, no getting down on his level, etc.

For how long?

Sounds as if Banjo needs some educating ... so he CAN be handled .he is a teenager, and is being horrible.

Ok- you are doing training, but what specifics are you doing to ensure he is safe to handle, and so he sees the kids as 'pack leaders' ?

There may be some useful info in this link

LINK

[Miz J]

I had Henry (boxer) desexed when he was 11 months old. I honeslty havn't noticed a difference in him behaviourly. Hes now 15 months and will try it on if he can, more to do with just being a young dog I think. If he thinks he can get away with something it's game on so despite desexing. More to do with behaviour than hormones. Best part is that he doesn't pee everywhere so I am hoping that continues. Have you thought about a behaviourist who can teach you about managing this robust behaviour. I agree with persephone, it's likely leadership issues

Edited May 21, 2010 by Miz J

[Jigsaw]

I think he needs to learn some boundaries as he is at the right age to be testing you out. I would suggest working with him together your kids and yourself under advice from your trainer.

[Lucy's mama]

Most young dogs would probably be trying on all the same stuff.

Really? I find it really worrying. I have never experienced a dog doing this. I worry it will get worse as he gains confidence not better. She broke the rule and grabbed his collar, he hurt/scared her, she let him go - victory for him and worth trying again next time?

He does it to some adults too. (My dad for eg.) Not me anymore because I hold onto the ring of the martingale and he will get a few sharp pops if he tries it.

How old are your children? Are they old enough to do some training in class with your dog?

They are 10 and 4. They are not allowed in class till they are 12. The 4 year olds timing is terrible (as can be expected at 4) so confuses the dog.

In your case I don't believe desexing will assist, I believe this dog needs to be put in his place and recieve appropriate training to be around the kids,

But how? I don't know what to do and can't find anything on the net either.

There may be some useful info in this link

Thanks. I have read that site several times and I can't find anything particularly useful there. Am I missing something?

QUOTE

Basically, we just need to avoid the kids doing anything that might make him snap or mouth them. No cuddles, no touching his collar, no getting down on his level, etc.

For how long?

Sounds as if Banjo needs some educating ... so he CAN be handled .he is a teenager, and is being horrible.

Ok- you are doing training, but what specifics are you doing to ensure he is safe to handle, and so he sees the kids as 'pack leaders' ?

I don't know for how long. It's certainly not something I want to constatly have to worry about for the next 10 years. I don't now how to make the kids pack leaders. We all eat before he does. We all go through the door before he does IF I am right there to ensure it. The kids can tell him to sit and wait for his food. From the time we got him I have made a point of handling him all over as taught in puppy school to try ensure he is fine to be touched on ears, paws tail etc. But his problem isn't being touched - it's being bossed around. I don't really know what else to do.

[persephone]

OK- may I suggest you find a trainer who CAN help!!

If you ask- I am sure someone here has used/knows of someone who will be able to help you . I agree it is a worry with kids ....sorry it is such an anxious time and telling you to stop the kids doing stuff which brings on the behaviour is avoidance- NOT training., IMO.

I can't really tell you strategies- I cannot see your kids, or the dog... which is why the best way is to have someone come to your house and work with you all.

[lovemesideways]

OK- may I suggest you find a trainer who CAN help!!

If you ask- I am sure someone here has used/knows of someone who will be able to help you . I agree it is a worry with kids ....sorry it is such an anxious time and telling you to stop the kids doing stuff which brings on the behaviour is avoidance- NOT training., IMO.

I can't really tell you strategies- I cannot see your kids, or the dog... which is why the best way is to have someone come to your house and work with you all.

+2

I wouldn't want to offer advice without seeing anything, in case what I assume it wrong.

[Starkehre]

Whilst your pup is being rewarded when he intimidates your children and possibly you also, by getting away with it, this behaviour will become permanently instilled and entrenched and will escalate. The dog is not a bad dog. the dog needs to be shown that this behaviour is not acceptable. And if you do not know how to do this, get professional assistance.

Though you are doing a lot of the very basic steps in showing your dog who is pack leader, he is probably just going through the motions as he thinks it is a bit of a joke, it sounds to me as though he thinks the kids are way below him in the pack and he wishes it to stay that way. This is where you will have to step in, as like you say, the kids are not at the point where they will be emotionally or physically powerful enough to assert themselves over your boy.

It is up to you to ensure your dog knows the kids are above him in pack status.

Agree with pers, get help, get it now or you will all be paying the price. 8 months is way too long for this behaviour to be going on and getting worse.

Edited May 21, 2010 by dyzney

[Lucy's mama]

OK- may I suggest you find a trainer who CAN help!!

If you ask- I am sure someone here has used/knows of someone who will be able to help you .

She was very highly recommended and has been great. I still have a final session with her so I will ask for more tips specifically to do with the kids.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[joanne76]

It sounds like you need a trainer who can assist you with becoming a pack leader, not just you but your kids also.

I think you wil need a specific trainer for this not just a basic obedience trainer.

[persephone]

has been great

Apologies but if this behaviour is still occurring and escalating - then she may be great, but perhaps her methods are ineffective ?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i dont think desexing will help. i think he needs to be made to understand that children are NEVER to be mouthed, jumped on or anything!!!

i think you need to go back to your trainer and ask what it will achieve by not having the children involved and how they suggest thast involvement takes place.

sounds odd (and dangerous) to me to not stop bad behaviour around children

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

has been great

Apologies but if this behaviour is still occurring and escalating - then she may be great, but perhaps her methods are ineffective ?

x2

[Lucy's mama]

She has not said they can not be involved - they can pat him on the side or under his chin and throw a ball for him ect. I don't want this to be about bagging the trainer.

[persephone]

I don't want this to be about bagging the trainer.

fair enough, it's just that you seem to have no specific strategies to use on Banjo to show him that his behaviour is unacceptable..... what did she suggest to do when he DOES mouth/nip/walk away?

[corvus]

I have a dog that we desexed earlier than we planned because he was humping the other dog all the time. He is also an outspoken, obnoxious little so-and-so and the desexing didn't change that one iota. It did stop the humping, though. That's all it did.

Have you thought about a counter-conditioning program so he learns to accept strange people and kids touching him? That is assuming he's acting up because he doesn't like it... Possibly that's a false assumption. We did this with our little guy and it worked for everything we thought of counter-conditioning. He is definitely still tetchy about some handling from strangers, but it's restricted to things we didn't CC for various reasons. We did a lot of it just with us at home putting things on cue and it has been translated successfully to strangers in strange environments, so the kids don't even necessarily need to be put in the firing line.

[aussielover]

While it is probably unlikely that desexing will make a difference, if you intend to get him desexed anyway, you might as well do it now.

There is a small chance that it may help the problem (unlikely but maybe worth a try). Of course I agree you need to continue the training and get some more tips of what to do when he is naughty.

Edit- 8 months is a pretty common age for dogs to be desexed. Any reason why you want to keep him entire for longer?

Edited May 21, 2010 by aussielover