Debarking Issues Again

[Steve]

I need to know

What the current NSW laws are regarding debarking and when these laws came in.What these laws were 3 to 4 years ago.

What the RSPCA can or cant do regarding entering your property and examining your dog without being invited.

Im going off now to gather some info on NSW companion animals laws and POCTAA but if anyone has a head start for me or want to give me a hand that would be great.

[Miss B]

This doesn't sound good...

[Steve]

Also Ive got some thing floating around which tells me there is a time limit on when you can be charged with cruelty - I thought it was 6 months .

I'd normally have this stuff at my finger tips but lost it all when my computer died a couple of months ago.

[cointreau]

Don't know if this link will help you.

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview...))&tocnav=y

If you can't get it to work I did a google search for nsw debarking and came up with a NSW legislation.

hope it works for you and helps otherwise I have no idea, sorry.

[dancinbcs]

Don't know any exact dates but do know that 3-4 years ago plenty of owners were routinely having dogs debarked so long as they provided a stat dec stating that all other avenues to stop the dog barking had been tried and failed.

The last person I know that enquired about getting it done about 12-18 months ago was told be several vets that they could only do it if it was ordered by council and the dog had been declared a nuisance dog. The council advised them that this can only be done if a neighbour is prepared to complain and keep a bark diary for soemthing like 6-8 weeks.

[Steve]

So If im an ordinary every day Jo public who is being put onth spot by my neighbours because my dog is barking - and its driving me nuts too. I go to the vet unaware that I need specific paperwork as prescribed in the above link and the vet does the op.

Am I in the poo because I asked for it to be done or is the vet in the poo for not getting the correct paper work before they operated or are we both going down?

[Steve]

Don't know any exact dates but do know that 3-4 years ago plenty of owners were routinely having dogs debarked so long as they provided a stat dec stating that all other avenues to stop the dog barking had been tried and failed.

The last person I know that enquired about getting it done about 12-18 months ago was told be several vets that they could only do it if it was ordered by council and the dog had been declared a nuisance dog. The council advised them that this can only be done if a neighbour is prepared to complain and keep a bark diary for soemthing like 6-8 weeks.

Yes I thought until relatively recently a stat dec was all that was needed but these dogs were done about 4 years ago - so the time may be an issue and have different requirements.

[dancinbcs]

So If im an ordinary every day Jo public who is being put onth spot by my neighbours because my dog is barking - and its driving me nuts too. I go to the vet unaware that I need specific paperwork as prescribed in the above link and the vet does the op.

Am I in the poo because I asked for it to be done or is the vet in the poo for not getting the correct paper work before they operated or are we both going down?

No idea because I have never heard of a vet doing it without the correct paper work. I imagine both would be in trouble though. The vets I know of that did several for friends were always pedantic about the paperwork being correct, even 20 years ago.

[Steve]

http://www.vpb.nsw.gov.au/Boardtalk/2002/d...mber2002_10.htm

quote Those circumstances and conditions are set out in the POCTA Regulation. Reg. 10 provides that the “prescribed circumstance” is that “the veterinary surgeon who performs the [debarking] operation is, before doing so, provided with a statutory declaration to the effect that the dog will be destroyed unless the operation is performed because the dog’s barking causes an unacceptable public nuisance.”

problem is there is no date on that link so I dont know how old it is.

[Kissindra]

asshats - I hope others can help with gathering the info - I have no idea where to start looking for NSW stuff

Hop it can be sorted quickly, Steve.

[Hairy Maclary]

The Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 2006 should be current (Item 2 on the list):

NSW Legislation

7 Prescribed circumstances in which “debarking” is permitted

For the purposes of section 12 (2) of the Act, the prescribed

circumstances in which a dog may be operated on for the purpose of

preventing the dog from being able to bark are that the veterinary

practitioner who performs the operation is, before doing so, provided

with:

(a) a copy of an order issued under section 21 of the Companion

Animals Act 1998 requiring the owner of the dog to prevent it

from barking, and

(b) a statutory declaration by the owner of the dog to the effect that,

unless the operation is performed, the owner would need to have

the dog destroyed so as to comply with the order.

plus

s21 Companion Animals Act 1998

[Hairy Maclary]

The RSPCA inspectors powers are detailed in this Act:

Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979

Scroll down to Division 2 - Power of Inspectors

Act was current as of Nov 2009

Hope this helps!

[Steve]

Thank you - it all helps.

What are the penalties for an owner in NSW for asking a vet to debark a dog if they dont have the necessary order from council, they didnt know they need that and the vet does not inform them they need that before the op is done? Is asking for the op and giving approval for the op something an owner can be prosecuted for ?

What are the penalties for an owner in NSW for asking a vet to debark a dog if they were not asked to produce a stat dec and they had no knowledge this was a requirement before the op could be done?

If the ops were completed approx 4 plus years ago and the owner cant remember whether they signed a stat dec or not how long are they required to hold the stat dec at the vets and how long is the owner required to keep a copy of the stat dec.

If the owner signs a stat dec and did not keep a copy can they be prosecuted and if so what for? How long after the event do they have to keep these records and how long after the event can they be prosecuted for animal cruelty if in fact the owner is guilty rather than or as well as the vet?

[Trisven13]

From my CAMP (Companion Animal Management Plan) meeting with Albury Council 2 months ago I didn't think you needed an order from the Rangers.

Present at that meeting was Arthur Fraunfelder, vet and President of Albury RSPCA, the head ranger and the head of compliance for Albury City Council. I would recommend ringing Arthur and asking what is required to do the procedure because at that meeting he stated he was still doing the procedure, intimated that he thought the cruelty charges being faced in Victoria were ridiculous (though I don't doubt he would deny that if actually asked ) and talked about what was required. I'm 99% sure that he said it was just a stat dec because the rangers said that it was handy to know that they could refer people to Arthur. My vet told me he was the only vet on the border who would do the procedure.

He owns and works in Hume Animal Hospital and Melrose Animal Hospital. He is normally in Hume Animal Hospital.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i would think the vet had the onus to get the right paperwork. as in most professional fields it is up to the practitioner to know the laws around there area f expertise.

it would be like me going to a doctor and telling them i want my leg amputated because i have a sore knee. i should have a reasonable expectation that the doctor would give me advice based on their medical knowledge (which i dont have) rather than them doing whatever i wanted.

in addition to diagnosising our pets ailments we have an expectation when we consult a vet that they will operate within the laws of the state and under their professional body's policies and procedures and that they will ensure we meet any legal obligations before they carry out procedures that require this.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[stormie]

Steve - you should give the Vet Surgeons Board - they are meant to know all the legal elements of veterinary practice so should be able to provide you with the relevant information. The AVA may be of help, but I believe their regulations are tighter and may not give you specific laws, just what they prefer, etc.

It strikes me as odd if an owner can be done for cruelty, but the vet wouldn't. As a general rule, vets are not allowed to perform an act of cruelty, but I think if they debarked without the paperwork, they would most likely only be punished at Board Level and not on a criminal level.

Also, is the POCTA regulation an actual act that has been passed in parliament etc? The link you posted has 2002, so can we assume that that regulation has been about since atleast 2002?

Will see what else we can find out for you...

Edited May 19, 2010 by stormie

[Steve]

When ever we start talking about debarking I get frustrated because none of it is logical. I like logical.

It is not logical to hold an owner as a criminal because they asked the vet to debark when they dont have the paperwork required at law. But I know the law says if someone commissions another person to tail dock they are guilty of a criminal offence.

Could be that the same applies for debarking.

The vet performed the op - not the owner - so its not logical to me to punish the owner when they didn't perform the act. However, if the law says you are guilty for asking then anyone who asks and the vets says "No I cant do that because you don't have the paperwork" is guilty anyway because they asked. If asking without paper work is against the law then logically anyone who asks is as guilty whether the vet does the op or not - right?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

When ever we start talking about debarking I get frustrated because none of it is logical. I like logical.

It is not logical to hold an owner as a criminal because they asked the vet to debark when they dont have the paperwork required at law. But I know the law says if someone commissions another person to tail dock they are guilty of a criminal offence.

Could be that the same applies for debarking.

The vet performed the op - not the owner - so its not logical to me to punish the owner when they didn't perform the act. However, if the law says you are guilty for asking then anyone who asks and the vets says "No I cant do that because you don't have the paperwork" is guilty anyway because they asked. If asking without paper work is against the law then logically anyone who asks is as guilty whether the vet does the op or not - right?

i too like logic and what you have said is right although logically and i suggest morally wrong.

would it be possible to get a definative legal opinion on this or is it a situation where there needs to be a case to determine the legality?

oops spelling

Edited May 19, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[mita]

From my CAMP (Companion Animal Management Plan) meeting with Albury Council 2 months ago I didn't think you needed an order from the Rangers.

Present at that meeting was Arthur Fraunfelder, vet and President of Albury RSPCA, the head ranger and the head of compliance for Albury City Council. I would recommend ringing Arthur and asking what is required to do the procedure because at that meeting he stated he was still doing the procedure, intimated that he thought the cruelty charges being faced in Victoria were ridiculous (though I don't doubt he would deny that if actually asked ) and talked about what was required. I'm 99% sure that he said it was just a stat dec because the rangers said that it was handy to know that they could refer people to Arthur. My vet told me he was the only vet on the border who would do the procedure.

He owns and works in Hume Animal Hospital and Melrose Animal Hospital. He is normally in Hume Animal Hospital.

Good advice in this post.

Qld law calls debarking a regulated procedure NOT a prohibited procedure. Which means the focus is on the vet's following the procedure that's laid down. Here it's a series of steps to be taken by the treating vet....checking that all avenues have been tried & that the dog's existence is at risk.

Sounds like NSW has similarities in that the treating vet has some boxes to tick.

So, in the OP's NSW case, wouldn't it be an issue of contacting the treating vet in that case? If the current NSW cruelty law was in place 4 years ago, then the treating vet's records should show what process was followed.

In the Victorian situation, the law doesn't have the sense to call debarking a regulated procedure....which it actually is in that state. There's a clear procedure set out for when it can be done. So the offence lies in not following the procedure.

For some odd reason, Victoria calls it a prohibited procedure thus saying 2 different things about the same procedure. And manages to thereby get it mixed up with tail-docking.

Edited May 20, 2010 by mita

[casowner]

I think the issue is two fold firstly it is up to the owner to find out the laws and secondly if the vet did not follow procedure/laws they are also responsible. If the vet had to be presented with a stat dec then they would need to keep a copy for future refernce to cover themselves as they performed the op. Even though I may not agree with the logic it is the same as someone saying "Well I didn't know it was illegal to own and breed pitbulls or I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to drive home drunk". They are over the top examples but I think it comes down to us (legally) finding out what rules there is.