Why Are Ankc Members So Low?

[Crisovar]

Many breeders and exhibitors wouldn't bother with all the effort for one dog, so they walk.

[Alyosha]

Most of the successful breeders I have known never set out to become breeders. They bought a nice main register pet and either decided or were encouraged to show it. As dogs used to be judged per the standard, not on how well they showed, a novice with a nice puppy could do some winning and then they were hooked. ... If no one sells main register puppies to new exhibitors the numbers will continue to decline at an alarming rate.

That was me!

Breeders need to keep an open mind to entrusting some buyers with good quality main register pups sometimes. I know it's hard with so many scammers, and mentoring can be hard work. But it is an amazing way to get into it. The breeders of my boy still get friendly jokes ringside about "pet dogs" beating them when my boy has a good day. They've always been just as proud of him as they would have been if he was still with them. That's a tough call for some breeders - to let newbies take some of their recognition.

If people can't join up and get out and show or trial without some small successes they simply aren't going to keep at it. There has to be some incentive.

[dancinbcs]

Just my thoughts!!!

Could it also be that we have taken the shows away from the general public/local communities. I believe that if we are not out in the public eye we soon become forgotten and become insignificant to a level that other more "pro" publicity organisations can then take control as experts and we begin to loose our voice in the community.

We used to have shows in Victoria like:Whittlesea KC @ Whittlesea; Yarra Valley @ Hurstbridge to name two. At each of these venues there was lead up and follow up publicity in the local newspapers and I can recall the numbers of "locals" passing through looking at all the exhibits. We also had a lot more agricultural shows (up until 1980s) than we currently have and again more general public passing through the dog showing area, some would then purchase a purebreed dog and some would also venture into showing.

So why is Sunbury so well partonised? Would Sunbury have the same appeal if it was conducted at Bulla (only fifteen minutes away)? I believe atmosphere plays a big part in drawing in the public. Success breeds success.

Even the biggest opportunity to publicly display dogs in Victoria is at the Royal Melbourne Show: what have we learnt! The dogs are locked away in an area with limited public access. Benching pavilion still crowded and there is not enough seating/standing areas for the general public and General Specials is conducted either between the buildings or inside (wet weather) not on the larger grass area that would be better suited if it was provided with more tiered seating for the general public.

Again, just my thoughts!!!

Good point. I know it is nice to have our own grounds and own facilities but showing in the same place with the same faces gets boring and the public never get to see the shows. I used to love living in the country and doing all the ag shows. They were a great way to show the dogs off the public. In Sydney we used to have several grounds around the city that were used for shows. The facilities at Erskine Park are better but the public are not likely to wander through there. I do have to say that Sydney Royal is now much better than it was at the old grounds where the public rarely found us. It is such a shame about Melbourne. The old rings at Melbourne were great.

[dancinbcs]

Simply because gone are the days when you could own ten or 15 dogs and have a reasonable sized kennel in your back yard or on you small acre blocks.

Whilst I am not disagreeing with your statement, I am wondering how would this explain the number of ANKC Members being low? 1 member 1 dog; or 1 member 15 dogs still works out to be one member.

It is very hard to breed a line of dogs if you are restricted to keeping just two. In my breed 15 would be unusual but most breeders used to keep about 4-6 at one time from puppies through to oldies. Three or four is about the mnimum to keep up an active involvement over more than ten years.

[Wazzat Xolo]

The thread title had me thinking this was a totally different topic! :p

Dog registrations for just about every breed are way down too. It's very sad I think.

I know for a fact that some of the dog registrations are not correct so maybe other breeds are in fact wrong!

[nabs]

Many long time breeders of traditionally docked breeds have bailed out over the years due to the banning of docking.

[~Anne~]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but I also feel that the decrease is attributable to the disatisfaction felt by many breeders due to increase in legislation that covers areas such as BSL and tail-docking. I think the oodle popualrity and increasing pressure on breeders to 'prove their worth' have also taken its toll. Where once it was automatically assumed that a purebred dog breeder sold quality, now it has to be proven again and again. Pressure from peers and the public alike.

Edited May 22, 2010 by ~Anne~

[Lhok]

Just my thoughts

Here in Coffs we had our local ag show, but the dog show part of the ag show was at our racecourse which is about 10 mins away it wasn't well advertised that the dog show part was at the racecourse and I wondered how that would affect it. Seeing how last year when it was still at the show ground lots of the public were walking around talking to the exhibitors if there isn't enough advertising people just don't know which is sad :p

--Lhok

[nabs]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but I also feel that the decrease is attributable to the disatisfaction felt by many breeders due to increase in legislation that covers areas such as BSL and tail-docking. I think the oodle popualrity and increasing pressure on breeders to 'prove their worth' have also taken its toll. Where once it was automatically assumed that a purebred dog breeder sold quality, now it has to be proven again and again. Pressure from peers and the public alike.

Snap!!!! :p

[nabs]

There is very little PR regarding the pure bred dog world. Some see us as a secret society! CC's need to raise the PB profile and reach out more to Joe public. Many people have no idea what a dog show is all about or other sports available to purebred dogs.

[conztruct]

There are heaps of reasons I can think of why registrations would be down and these are just my experiences based on what has happened to me so these aren't generic assumptions about exhibitors/breeders/etc - they're all different i know. I'm a really new exhibitor/owner.

General

- There are more options for hobbies and pastimes now.

- Good show dogs are expensive to own and keep healthy and take time to train.

- Councils and government make it easier to commit a murder than to own dogs.

- Xbreed sales outlets are very good at spinning how good their dogs are to a public who doesn't have the knowledge that most of us have.

- Forums like this are pretty cruel to newbies - sure there are some very experienced smart people who know their stuff on here but a lot of times the delivery of that knowledge is overly harsh - while the point is totally fair it is lost at the offence and the feeling of total stupidity and inadequacy of the newbie.

Exhibitors

- We are now conditioned to instant success outcomes or dump it and try something else (we as society are now condition to expect instant outcomes and to never have to work for anything)

- A lot of exhibitors at shows will be friendly until you do well and become a threat to their success - then things change

- Newbies turning up to a show with their dog and a camp chair are simply overwhelmed by the "rigs" that the seasoned campaigners rock up in with all the hairdryers, professional staff and handlers, etc

- Stewards, judges, other officials and other exhibitors can be real a$$holes to newbies - they don't get a real opportunity to learn

- Even if they ask for it exhibitors don't want to hear honest feedback about their dog or handling

Breeders

- It can be very difficult to get a puppy now - breeders have necessarily had to raise the bar when it comes to screening, prices can be very expensive and some of the restrictions, etc placed on new buyers are overwhelming

- Again council regs, time requirements, work commitments make it difficult to breed

- Instant success conditioning again - if you don't breed a litter of world champions give up and try something else

These are just some of the things I have encountered and for all of these I have also experienced the opposite where the outcome has been very positive - like all things though just one negative experience is enough to turn some people off.

A lot of it doesn't worry me - I'm a newbie and while I keep learning, I don't know much. I've had heaps of fun both socially at shows and while showing my dogs with pretty average success. But I don't care really - my dogs are my pets that I happen to show occasionally and may breed one day. I'll never be a die-hard breeder or show groupie because I intend to hang on to the dogs I have because they are my pets and since I'm full up as far as the council are concerned, it'll be a long time until I get anything new.

One thing I have always thought is that if the ANKC lobbied hard enough with councils and governing bodies so that some incentive in terms of reduced registration, permits to keep more than the normal number of dogs at the property for having a current ANKC membership and purebred dogs - it would go a long way to start memberships on an upward trend again. I can't see it happening any time soon though.

[dancinbcs]

Very well thought out post Conztruct, especially for someone new to the dog world

The restriction on numbers thing really needs to be addressed by poilticians to get all the other states in line with NSW, that no longer has number restrictions. Some states have become so anti-dog it is unbelievable. The NSW State Govt have buggered up just about everything they have done for this state over the last decade or so but the Companion Animal Act was the one thing they got right. Lifetime registration with the state government and no restriction on numbers was a huge boost to the dog owners in NSW.

[conztruct]

Very well thought out post Conztruct, especially for someone new to the dog world

The restriction on numbers thing really needs to be addressed by poilticians to get all the other states in line with NSW, that no longer has number restrictions. Some states have become so anti-dog it is unbelievable. The NSW State Govt have buggered up just about everything they have done for this state over the last decade or so but the Companion Animal Act was the one thing they got right. Lifetime registration with the state government and no restriction on numbers was a huge boost to the dog owners in NSW.

Oh - so the state act overrides any council requirements for a set number of dogs and the rego is paid direct to the state government rather than the local council.

What a smart idea....I can't see it happening up here in Qld though. I know our council would be against it - following the forced amalgamations of the old shire councils our council is in stacks of debt and grabbing money from the rate-payers any way they know how. They have a limit of 2 dogs on us - but if you want more you have to pay an extra $100 just to apply to have more - no guarantee though and if you do get approved you then have to pay the $90 rego per dog.

As some of the other posters have mentioned if you wanted to maintain dogs for showing and breeding, it's pretty impossible to do that with a 2-dog limit.

[Bisart Dobes]

Just my thoughts!!!

Could it also be that we have taken the shows away from the general public/local communities. I believe that if we are not out in the public eye we soon become forgotten and become insignificant to a level that other more "pro" publicity organisations can then take control as experts and we begin to loose our voice in the community.

We used to have shows in Victoria like:Whittlesea KC @ Whittlesea; Yarra Valley @ Hurstbridge to name two. At each of these venues there was lead up and follow up publicity in the local newspapers and I can recall the numbers of "locals" passing through looking at all the exhibits. We also had a lot more agricultural shows (up until 1980s) than we currently have and again more general public passing through the dog showing area, some would then purchase a purebreed dog and some would also venture into showing.

So why is Sunbury so well partonised? Would Sunbury have the same appeal if it was conducted at Bulla (only fifteen minutes away)? I believe atmosphere plays a big part in drawing in the public. Success breeds success.

Even the biggest opportunity to publicly display dogs in Victoria is at the Royal Melbourne Show: what have we learnt! The dogs are locked away in an area with limited public access. Benching pavilion still crowded and there is not enough seating/standing areas for the general public and General Specials is conducted either between the buildings or inside (wet weather) not on the larger grass area that would be better suited if it was provided with more tiered seating for the general public.

Again, just my thoughts!!!

Or 'The Classic' - all those nicknamed big shows that had their own presence and that 'have to be there' have almost disappeared. Sunbury can never be moved !!! - that is why that committee work so hard every year at both shows to ensure the grounds are cleaner than when the dog people arrived and most exhibitors hold up their end of the bargain as well. I think Sunbury will outlive the Melb Royal - I hope they can promote it to 'royal' level and even include televised coverage etc etc Public profile and interest would certainly help our cause.

Though I entered the Sydney Royal for the first time this year and that was just as bad - officials and security staff were fantastic but the benching and the toileting area for dogs - just as bad as Melbourne. And it just puts you off entering your dogs in events like this - its not set up for the good of the dogs or for the dogs.

But I really think that the bitching and backstabbing that goes on is what is killing it for most - who needs to deal with petty bitching crap like that when you are supposedly doing something you enjoy.

Also too often the judges are influenced by who is on the end of the lead or put up the dog that doesn't put a foot wrong. I know its essentially a 'dog show' but its extremely annoying when a judge tells you - "just love this dog and would have loved him for my challenge but he wasn't working well enough with you" - my response "yes, well its his first show in over 7 months - so it was good practice today" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not enough to put me off but a newcomer would be devestated by comments like that - I know I remember one judge telling me I lost a class in group for my bitch . . . . . . . I was flattened, she was my first showdog & in puppy.

As for 20 years in a breed - I know someone who has been in their breed for almost that and couldn't tell you how many teeth a dog should have - so sorry, time means jack. Time in the game doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.

Though on the mentor side - totally agree with those comments - I was fortunate enough to have great breed mentors who have been in the breed for 40+ years and who have taught me more that I could learn by myself in 20 years and I am grateful for this every day when I look at our dogs and appreciate the breeding base we have put together for the future. Every day .

[Ozstar]

I have tried bringing new puppy owners in to showing only to have them after a couple shows pull out because of the nastiness of other exhibitors. Over the many years I have had harrassing phone calls, emails etc and even death threats to me and my dogs. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that.

I myself after 16 years have reduced my dog numbers to only a couple dogs and am only doing a few shows a year now. I just can't be bothered anymore and am loving it

I was at a major show recently (well major for SA :D ) that was so obvious with handlers marking themselves for the judges (either wearing scarfs or having a thing hanging off the end of the lead) so that the judges new who to give the win to. Why would people want to waste their hard earnt money when this is going on. Gone are the days when the best dog won

If it wasn't for the breeding side I doubt I would be a member after this year.

Leanne

[Christina]

The post by Conztruct just about covers it all.

Apart from shows & being able to register pups pedigree if you breed there is little point in membership. They don't appear to help with new or stupid laws/regulations or any other problems.

I gave a newbie some advice/help for their 1st show. After 1 show she said never again, a most unpleasant experience. Not encouraging.

[dancinbcs]

Also too often the judges are influenced by who is on the end of the lead or put up the dog that doesn't put a foot wrong. I know its essentially a 'dog show' but its extremely annoying when a judge tells you - "just love this dog and would have loved him for my challenge but he wasn't working well enough with you" - my response "yes, well its his first show in over 7 months - so it was good practice today" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not enough to put me off but a newcomer would be devestated by comments like that - I know I remember one judge telling me I lost a class in group for my bitch . . . . . . . I was flattened, she was my first showdog & in puppy.

As for 20 years in a breed - I know someone who has been in their breed for almost that and couldn't tell you how many teeth a dog should have - so sorry, time means jack. Time in the game doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.

Though on the mentor side - totally agree with those comments - I was fortunate enough to have great breed mentors who have been in the breed for 40+ years and who have taught me more that I could learn by myself in 20 years and I am grateful for this every day when I look at our dogs and appreciate the breeding base we have put together for the future. Every day .

Yes, where in any breed standard does it mention that the dog must work well with the handler? In a Junior Handler class it matters but judges now judge breed classes as if they are JH classes. If I want my dogs judged on performance alone I will enter obedience, not conformation and comments from the judge about bad handling would be enough to make a novice give up. The judge is supposed to be there to judge how well the dog fits the standard. The result is generic "showdogs" win over much better examples of the breeds. Makes me wonder why they bother to study the standards. Joe Blogs off the street could pick the best "showdog", never having studied a breed standard.

Classic quote from a well known judge for me was "one dog has movement, the other glamour, today I am going with glamour". This was to justify her decision on a class in working breed.

I know that number of years does not necessarily = knowledge. Some people just don't want to learn. But there are some things you just cannot learn about a breed without observing multiple generations and that takes time. Some of the old timers with 40-50 years experience are just awsome in the knowledge they have aquired.

[Bisart Dobes]

Just having my toast and coffee and reading through the May Dog News - which bought me back to this thread.

There is a very interesting article about the survey sent out at a recent Newcastle show and the results they received back - and people had to put their name and membership number to this !!!!!

Most interesting was that 80 % of people who responded stated that they would support a new national canine organisation if it were an option. I say why the hell not the cat fraternity have about 4 and the horses just as many - why don't those of us over the crap start a new national CC ?????????????

Anyway there is a website where everyone can complete the survey - please feel free to post the website details anywhere you feel is appropriate. And most importantly get on there and tell them what you really think .

Canine Survey - Webiste: Dog Issues

http://www.dogissues.net

[dancinbcs]

I have tried bringing new puppy owners in to showing only to have them after a couple shows pull out because of the nastiness of other exhibitors. Over the many years I have had harrassing phone calls, emails etc and even death threats to me and my dogs. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that.

Leanne

The degree of nastiness seems to vary enormously with the breed. Some of the terrier breeds like SBT and Amstaff seem to have a problem, as do many of the utility breeds, especially those with a lot of imports. As a general rule though most of the working dog, gundog and non sporting exhibitors seem to get on pretty well. There will always be the odd person ready to be nasty but in any group of humans that is to be expected. It does generally seem to be the more placid the breed the more placid the owners are. I have always had working dogs and can only really think of a few really nasty exhibitors over the years but never to the degree mentioned above. What goes on between exhibitors of some other breeds leaves me gob smacked.

[Bisart Dobes]

Anyway there is a website where everyone can complete the survey - please feel free to post the website details anywhere you feel is appropriate. And most importantly get on there and tell them what you really think .

Canine Survey - Webiste: Dog Issues

http://www.dogissues.net

Veto that - have just looked through the website and cannot find a link to the survery perhaps Dogs News printed it wrong and we can't all do the survey. I have emailed them to ask details of the survey and will post later when I get a response.