Citronella Spray Collars

[Aidan]

As I said, it really hasn't been demonstrated across a population but there could be individuals who avoid it (not either of my dogs though!) In any case, I think we can all agree that it would be better if they just used plain water or something inert that no dogs in a population will find naturally aversive or an irritant.

I do remember reading somewhere of one or two dogs found to have had a very adverse reaction to Citronella and I believe one of the dogs died from it. Something akin to an Anaphylaxis reaction. But perhaps that can happen with anything - like people and nuts.

That would certainly be possible, it's contra-indicated for use by pregnant women for e.g. It does have a GRAS ("generally regarded as safe") classification, though. I just did a quick Google, and apparently scentless refills are available for citronella collars, good to know.

[Erny]

Come on, Erny, let's not mince words. If it's aversive enough to avoid and it happens of a sudden it's a shock in my books.

I'm not mincing words, Corvus.

When I write, I like to use words that properly describe (as close as possible) to what the (in this instance) sensation of a static anti-bark collar can be. I know what image most people get when they hear the word "shock" when used in reference to any electronic collar, and that image is false.

So it seems that unlike yourself, I write with a purpose of clarity in explanation (I don't always succeed, but I try), rather than using words that might be technically correct but which create the wrong image and can deter people from using a training aid that might well be the best thing for the dog and the job.

The nay-sayers of any electronic collar looooove to use words such as "shock". It's not technically incorrect and it produces exactly the image they want people to imagine even if that image is incorrect.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Erny

[laeral]

So for the purposes of describing in a way that readers could imagine at least as accurately as possible of what I'm speaking about, no, I disagree that the stimulation from an anti-bark collar would be rightly referred to as a "shock" (implying, even if inadvertently, in this instance "electric shock" ).

They are what they are meant to be, which is aversive. "Shock" is aversive language. "Stim", not so much. That's an ambiguous word. I say the aversive language is honest.

Would not the best description of the sensation experienced be the more honest?

I would actually use both words to describe an e-collar. At normal 'working level' for training I think the more accurate term would be stim. It is so low it is only a tingle, like the tens machine I suppose. I have used this on myself and would never call it a shock, I beleive that is an inaccurate description.

Used at a high level - yes shock would be more accurate. Although it feels completely different to the shock you get from an electric fence or power point. Yes I have had unfortunate experiences on all of these

[Aidan]

At normal 'working level' for training I think the more accurate term would be stim.

Stim is short for "stimulus" though, which is a technical term which means pretty much anything Food is a stimulus. A bell is a stimulus. etc

"Tingle" perhaps? It's an electric current, most people know that touching a 9V battery is imperceptible unless you stick it on your tongue.

[Jake-K9]

Erny, in regards to the dogtra's malfunctioning:

I don't know the model number at all, they were cheap ones an ex-boss bought off a supplier in vic, but they were sound-activated only. I expressed my concerns about them but the boss thought they'd be fine. He strapped one to his arm and then got one of the dogs to 'speak' next to him, and didn't get a stim, so we started using them.

He'd only bought 2 collars and there were I think 6 dogs in the kennels at the time, so we had to rotate the collars around to whoever was the worst offenders at the time :/

One GSD bitch who used to bark a lot at the kangaroos and horses going past tended to have the collar on a fair bit. I'd often come down in the morning to feed the dogs and find her curled up under her bed refusing to come out even for food. I told the boss I thought the collar was malfunctioning but as there were no issues with the other dogs we kept using them.

One day I had to leave my own dog down there for the day, and I knew he was going to kick up a stink and bark the neighbourhood down as soon as I left, so I put a collar on him. 2 Barks and he was quiet straight away. Came back in the afternoon to fetch him, he jumped up to bark at the dog in the next kennel from excitement (and the other dog was also barking very loudly at him), he copped a zap and as I was there and he allready knew what a stim from a remote trainer meant he flipped straight into Heel. However the other dog was still barking, and my dog kept getting zapped, despite being silent himself >_< (I moved us away as quickly as I could on gravel with my dog getting tangled in my legs from trying to Heel harder and took the collar straight off).

Told the boss but he wouldn't believe me

I think it was about a week later, I was down there, probably at feed time, of course everyone is barking... next thing I hear the GSD bitch screaming her lungs out...

Go to her kennel and look in, the collar is zapping the hell out of her, on and off, and won't shut off... I ring the boss and go wtf do I do, I'm going to get seriously bitten here... he tells me to get it off, so I open the door of the kennel, poor bitch shoots straight out past me, and heads for the gate. Gate is shut, and she is still getting zapped, so in hurt scared dog logic, she decides I'm the cause of this pain and comes back at me... I had the boss on the phone the whole time while I'm trying to stop the poor bitch getting a hold of me, luckily for me she kept stopping and trying to bite at the collar, which I eventually managed to undo and remove. I still got holes in one leg, both arms, and a big rip in my shirt. And I still maintain that any of the 'tougher' dogs in the kennel would have ripped my face off... One in particular I definitely would not have even opened the kennel door for (said dog later tore chunks out of the boss, total bastard of an animal :/ ).

Boss finally realises these things are completely FSCKED! Rang the supplier in vic and ripped his head off...

Guy sent out 2 dogtra vibration activated collars, which had these really weird little round pads in the middle of the prongs, and were about twice the size of the noise-only ones. And didn't seem to work anywhere near as well

I personally have an innotek automatic, vibration operated collar. It seemed to work pretty well on the malinut for a while, but he has somehow worked out how to get around it, and will still bark with it on - even after I've ramped it up a bit by rubbing it on something rough before I put it on him, and I KNOW the damn thing works, as I've held and tested it myself

[corvus]

So it seems that unlike yourself, I write with a purpose of clarity in explanation (I don't always succeed, but I try), rather than using words that might be technically correct but which create the wrong image and can deter people from using a training aid that might well be the best thing for the dog and the job.

The "best" tool is the one that the owner is comfortable with using. If the owner doesn't want to apply an aversive electric current designed to make a dog uncomfortable to their pooch then an electric collar is not the right tool. Calling it a "stim" instead of a "shock" won't change that. I think you've done a fine job of painting the "right" image there to get by without also using ambiguous language. You are so fair, and then at the last moment, just when everyone's feeling nice and comfy, you start playing down the aversives. Don't play down aversives! It's not worth it, and you don't have to. You just have to be honest.

I'm sure the anti-e-collar possy does like to use the word "shock". And that is pretty irrelevant. No one here is parading a "Ban E-collars!" sign.

[Erny]

.....

Edited May 19, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

. I think you've done a fine job of painting the "right" image there to get by without also using ambiguous language. You are so fair, and then at the last moment, just when everyone's feeling nice and comfy, you start playing down the aversives. Don't play down aversives! It's not worth it, and you don't have to. You just have to be honest.

I'm sure the anti-e-collar possy does like to use the word "shock". And that is pretty irrelevant. No one here is parading a "Ban E-collars!" sign.

Your posts have such a tone of attempt to condescend, Corvus.

And don't accuse me of not being honest.

I am not playing down aversives - show me where and how I've done that. I don't like the word "shock" because at the stim-level that I and many other knowledgeable-about-the-e-collar-people use it, it is NOT a "shock".

So quit with trying to have me saying things I am not.

And speaking of honesty - I think everyone else understands very clearly what I'm saying and trying to communicate. You're only trying to satisfy yourself with bringing on an argument and it is one that I think doesn't deserve the effort.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

Jake-K9 - That is a horrible experience for both you and the dog. As I mentioned, I won't touch noise only activated static anti-bark collars. On top of that, it was most unfortunate that there was a malfunction, and I don't mean that lightly.

I've had a reasonable amount of experience in the use of the static anti-bark collars and e-collars in general and *touch wood* I've not experienced such a malfunction. I hope I never do. I know there are many other trainers who have had far more years experience than I who haven't endured the experience you have either.

The collars I use/prefer are ones where the stim-level is set by me and I do that in accordance with the dog's response. I want just enough stim to have the dog prefer not to bark and no more. I guess there couldn't be any guarantees, but I presume that if the collar decided to go off of its own accord ( don't know what would cause that) I'd like to think it would have a chance at being at no higher than the level I've dictated.

[Jeff Jones]

. I think you've done a fine job of painting the "right" image there to get by without also using ambiguous language. You are so fair, and then at the last moment, just when everyone's feeling nice and comfy, you start playing down the aversives. Don't play down aversives! It's not worth it, and you don't have to. You just have to be honest.

I'm sure the anti-e-collar possy does like to use the word "shock". And that is pretty irrelevant. No one here is parading a "Ban E-collars!" sign.

Your posts have such a tone of attempt to condescend, Corvus.

And don't accuse me of not being honest.

I am not playing down aversives - show me where and how I've done that. I don't like the word "shock" because at the stim-level that I and many other knowledgeable-about-the-e-collar-people use it, it is NOT a "shock".

So quit with trying to have me saying things I am not.

And speaking of honesty - I think everyone else understands very clearly what I'm saying and trying to communicate. You're only trying to satisfy yourself with bringing on an argument and it is one that I think doesn't deserve the effort.

Erny.

[all that glitters]

I don't think I could ever bring myself to leave an electronic collar on my dogs unattended. I just cannot bring myself to trust them. That's me, though. Fortunately our dogs quit the barking when we moved them inside. They now stay in all day when I'm working in the city, which amounts to about 9.5 hours. When I'm working from home the door stays open, but mostly they snooze inside anyway. I was really sad about putting them inside rather than the yard, but I think I was wrong to be sad. They are happier inside from what I can tell. They are not spending the day barking in distress, so I can only assume they are happier inside.

Yep totally my situation too, my GSD bitch is a LOT happier and calmer being kept indoors only when alone, with the door open she would run straight outside and distress bark - now with no outdoor access there's not even a whimper! She goes straight onto one of her many couches

So it seems that unlike yourself, I write with a purpose of clarity in explanation (I don't always succeed, but I try), rather than using words that might be technically correct but which create the wrong image and can deter people from using a training aid that might well be the best thing for the dog and the job.

The "best" tool is the one that the owner is comfortable with using. If the owner doesn't want to apply an aversive electric current designed to make a dog uncomfortable to their pooch then an electric collar is not the right tool. Calling it a "stim" instead of a "shock" won't change that. I think you've done a fine job of painting the "right" image there to get by without also using ambiguous language. You are so fair, and then at the last moment, just when everyone's feeling nice and comfy, you start playing down the aversives. Don't play down aversives! It's not worth it, and you don't have to. You just have to be honest.

I'm sure the anti-e-collar possy does like to use the word "shock". And that is pretty irrelevant. No one here is parading a "Ban E-collars!" sign.

I don't see any of that, I just see Erny saying it how it is? I don't have a problem with what she's saying

[corvus]

I ain't trying to condescend or accuse you of not being honest. I was actually attempting to offer support for everything you said about e-collars before the stim vs shock thing, but hey, what can you do. My apologies for sounding condescending.

[Jake-K9]

Jake-K9 - That is a horrible experience for both you and the dog. As I mentioned, I won't touch noise only activated static anti-bark collars. On top of that, it was most unfortunate that there was a malfunction, and I don't mean that lightly.

I've had a reasonable amount of experience in the use of the static anti-bark collars and e-collars in general and *touch wood* I've not experienced such a malfunction. I hope I never do. I know there are many other trainers who have had far more years experience than I who haven't endured the experience you have either.

The collars I use/prefer are ones where the stim-level is set by me and I do that in accordance with the dog's response. I want just enough stim to have the dog prefer not to bark and no more. I guess there couldn't be any guarantees, but I presume that if the collar decided to go off of its own accord ( don't know what would cause that) I'd like to think it would have a chance at being at no higher than the level I've dictated.

Yeah, it certainly wasn't fun And I'd told the boss I thought it was a bad idea the second he showed me the collars. Oh well...

At least the bitch recovered from it and in a day or so she was her normal self around me again. It only seemed to happen to her, or if it happened to the others they bounced straight back from it after it'd somehow shut itself off again. She wore both collars, too, as there wasn't really any way of telling them apart. The ones we used we could manually set the level, it took a bit of monitoring to work out where was best for each dog, but on the bitch it was only ever set to the lowest level... it was definitely going off at a higher level when it malfunctioned. It also kept zapping her well after she'd bolted out the kennel door and was away from all the others barking >_<

Apart from this one (or possibly these two) collars, I've never seen anything like it either, and like you, I hope I don't again...

It hasn't put me off use of static collars, though, as I own a remote trainer and an anti-bark collar for the malinut, but I will always be careful about what I buy and where I buy it from.

Innotek have been excellent with their customer service, as the receiver unit on my collar stopped working (at a guess, the magnetic switch somehow got jammed), and I had to send it back. As they are a sealed unit (to make them waterproof), they just replaced the whole thing, no questions - well, except for the ones I went through with their tech support before they said send it back - and the whole thing was back to me within a week of having sent it

When I can afford to upgrade though I will probably go with a dogtra NCP model, I do like their 'thermostat' adjustment and the amount of sensitivity in the adjustment, my Innotek is rather blunt in comparison

[Erny]

Oooh no, getting a static shock from the carpet is nasty!

LOL .... I won't ask what you're doing on the carpet for its static shock to affect you so, Aidan. I trust the effect is enough to stop you, at any rate.

Errmmm, let's call it "yoga"

I missed this post.

Yoga. Uhhhh, yep.

[Erny]

Although it feels completely different to the shock you get from an electric fence or power point. Yes I have had unfortunate experiences on all of these

Cop a 'hit' on the right part of your spine and you feel it everywhere. It's like taking one punch but every bit of your body is 'hit' by it. Difference is it leaves no bruises and you get to simply walk away from it. And maybe your heart is beating to a better rhythm LOL. I remember my first 'hit' from an electric fence - my Dad was standing next to me at the time and I thought he'd punched me in the arm. And I agree - the static anti-bark collars and the RT e-collars are nothing like that.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Erny

[Blue Fox 001]

So what about sonic collars then? I have a lot of clients asking about anti-bark collars and here in SA it looks like it's either citronella or the sonic collars.

I currently don't recommend one over the other as I have not had anything to do with either so would be keen to hear if the sonic collars work.

I see Kramar make something called the K-Sonic, anyone had any experience with this collar or can recommend a good brand?

[Erny]

I wouldn't hold a lot of store or faith in the sonic collars for dogs who are chronic excessive barkers. Perhaps for soft/sensitive dogs, maybe, at a pinch. But I'll admit that I don't have first hand experience in these. I have read experiences of others in the use of sonic devices without much if any success, but not specifically with the collars, their only difference being that the collar will ramp up the sound intensity/volume if the dog doesn't stop barking.

I think you'd have a better chance with the spray collar, but you never know (unless you have a go ). Why do you have no choice other than Citronella?

Edited May 19, 2010 by Erny

[Blue Fox 001]

Thanks Ernie - I thought static collars were illegal in SA?

Edited May 19, 2010 by Blue Fox 001

[Erny]

Thanks Ernie - I thought static collars were illegal in SA?

They are, unfortunately. Supposed to be outlawed under the guise of "Animal Welfare" but getting them outlawed I think was just an agenda borne from bloody-minded stubborness and by the time the fight, which went on and on and on for many years, was won, "animal welfare" as its centre focus I fear was forgotten. Just my opinion. But my question about "why Citronella?" was meaning "why not a cold spray or lemon scent spray collar?" (instead of Citronella. Unless you were using "Citronella" collar to mean a "spray" collar .)

Re-reading the above, I think I'm confusing myself.

[Kelly_Louise]

Do citronella collars work… hmmmm… yes and no.

Firstly, it will depend on the dog – and whether it bothers them to have it sprayed up at them, and whether citronella bothers them or not.

For us, yes, it did work in a way. I think if you need to leave the collar on every time you go out – then no, it hasn’t worked for you and I wouldn’t bother to continue with it.

Sasha was a chronic barker when we brought her home. Even when we were there. I don’t think I got 5 minutes peace, unless I was stuck at her side – and night times… OMG she would bark every 20 minutes non stop. I was worried that someone may do something to her, or report her… so I hired a citronella collar from the Council (to try) for one week. I put it on her, she barked – she got sprayed and was a bit shocked… and… I finally had peace. It seemed to work instantly – and for the first time we had quiet. It never stopped her from barking persay, but it stopped the habit of her barking. It made her stop and think. And then when she did decide to bark, she would remember about the collar, and stop after the first or second bark. She learnt that barking constantly wasn’t on, and once the habit of barking was interrupted – she realised that she didn’t NEED to bark at every single sound/light/movement/voice she heard. And she also knew what that collar meant, and didn’t like it – but dealt with it beautifully.

After about 1 month of putting it on her only every now and then after the first 2 weeks of continual use, when she DID bark – she would bark straight through it. I don’t think it bothers her now, and if I was to use it I think she’d just keep barking and getting sprayed. BUT, it did break the initial habit, and the problem was solved. She still barks …. But she only barks at particular things now, and doesn’t go on and on. She barks a few barks, and stops – and can be controlled with vocal commands to stop.

I also find that after a while, they don’t work as well anymore. And after time, they become ineffective and don’t seem to work as well. But, it was worth it for us – and once the habit was broken it was enough for her to learn, and we’ve never needed it since. I was recommended not to use the static collar on Sasha (even though it is illegal in NSW anyway) due to her extreme timidity when she first came to us. The spray, was considered gentler, it isn’t pleasant (I started to HATE the smell), but it’s just a little shock to the senses – rather than a shock to the body. I think we did the right thing for Sasha, I think the static collar, at the time, would not have been good for her.

If I needed to use a barking collar NOW, and it was legal here, then I would use the static collar (on a VERY low setting though) as she has lost a lot of her timidity. However, I did find the citronella collar useful in breaking the habit in our case (and it was a Godsend J )