Advice Please...puppy Apparently Dead After Illness

[Rubric]

Hi Guys,

This is an extremely long post and I apologise, but please read on...

I am just after some advice from the breeders here. My dog had a litter of 10 puppies (Feb 13), 5 of which went to their new homes at 8 weeks. 2 weeks later, 4 out of the 5 puppies I still had at home contracted a severe e-coli infection. One passed away, the rest made a full recovery after a few days on a drip. The e-coli was diagnosed after a stool culture.

About 5 days ago, someone who had purchased a puppy at 8 weeks called me to say the puppy is vomiting and lethargic. I told him to take it to the vet ASAP, telling him what had happened with my puppies to reiterate the urgency needed for the dog to see the vet.

So he took it and called me on Saturday to say it will be coming home on Sunday and the vet said this puppy came from a very sick litter, blah, blah.....So, I called the vet, and of course he said he didnt say that. Also he said he doubts this puppy's illness is related to my other ones, this puppy wasnt as sick as mine but he couldnt be sure what it is exactly because the new owner wasnt prepared to pay to have a culture done.

Now this guy called me last night to say the puppy had died (which TBH IDK if I believe, why would the vet send it home on Sunday if it was still at risk or death), and telling me how devestated they are, etc.....

BUT, in the same breath, he is asking for reimbursement for the actual pedigree papers (I am still waiting on the papers from Dogs Victoria), should he not receive his them...

I am not sure what the prodecure is about the death of puppies/dogs who are registered with Dogs Victoria and I am under the assuption that because these are Amstaff puppies, he plans to use the papers with a Pitbull, but my papers will 'prove' it is an Amstaff. Why else would he want papers for a dog whom is supposedly dead ?

He finished the conversation saying Dont forget I know where you live....now I am not scared, and I do not want to supply him papers for a dead puppy, to be misued, and the vet will not tell me anything due to confidentality.

The actual papers cost like $30, so I am thinking of giving him the $30 and showing him that is the actual cost for the papers, then he will have his money back, but I will not refund any more.

This is the first time I have dealt with such a fool and I would appreicate absolutely ANY advice you have to offer.

Thank you in advance.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Rubric

[Crazy Daisy]

I'm not a breeder and can't help with your question but maybe you might be better asking this question in the breeders forum? You might get more of a response from people who know what they're talking about.

Sorry for the loss of your puppies.

[KatrinaM]

For the reinbursement i would require a copy of a death certificate from the vet that stated the cause of the dogs illness was directly related to you.

As for his papers you are required to return them to the registering body, I would make him a photocopy, write over the front of them with red nicko pen with something like PUPPY DIED ??/05/2010 PAPERS RETURNED TO DOGS VIC ON ??/05/2010. I would also send him a copy of the rules where it says thats what you are required to do.

Cheers

Katrina

[Stitch]

If it were me I would phone the Dogs Victoria, tell them what happened and ask them the correct procedure.

If he threatens you then call the police.

[nickojoy]

poor little buggers. Was that from Chicken or eggs?

[Beauie]

As a breeder, here's my two bobs worth......

There are many a "strange one" out in that world of ours and sometimes people do not show their true colours until "s*** hits the fan" so to speak....and with this person, I personally would do the following..

Your fault or not, just reimburse this person the full amount of the puppy...

Very likely this puppy died of something else unrelated to the illness of your litter but you may never likely know.

I would send the dead pup's rego papers back to Dogs Vic....do not supply even a copy of the pup's rego papers to this person.

Tell him you're very sorry for his loss (be nice & always polite) but mention as the pup has died, the papers MUST be send back to Dogs Vic (rules & reg's)...lastly, mention his sentence "I know where you live" in that you considered it to be a threat and have made mention about it to friends & the police.

Sometimes it is best just to "end" situations fast & count your losses rather than drag things on which could make your life hell.

Good luck

[Sir Sniffalot]

It is my understanding the papers are the property of Vic dogs when the animal has passed and they must be returned, but it does sound like he wants them for a dodgy reason and l don't think telling him you are required to return them to the registering body will bring the issue to an end. As Beauie said maybe the only way to get rid of him is to refund the purchase price and tell him to move on, then again he would probably ask for vet costs too and who knows what else. Best of luck

Edited May 18, 2010 by Sir Sniffalot

[stef_83]

have u called the other pups new owners and checked on there well being because if this puppy did contract something while in your care the other puppys might be at risk, no harm them getting checked

[nabs]

As a breeder, here's my two bobs worth......

There are many a "strange one" out in that world of ours and sometimes people do not show their true colours until "s*** hits the fan" so to speak....and with this person, I personally would do the following..

Your fault or not, just reimburse this person the full amount of the puppy...

Very likely this puppy died of something else unrelated to the illness of your litter but you may never likely know.

I would send the dead pup's rego papers back to Dogs Vic....do not supply even a copy of the pup's rego papers to this person.

Tell him you're very sorry for his loss (be nice & always polite) but mention as the pup has died, the papers MUST be send back to Dogs Vic (rules & reg's)...lastly, mention his sentence "I know where you live" in that you considered it to be a threat and have made mention about it to friends & the police.

Sometimes it is best just to "end" situations fast & count your losses rather than drag things on which could make your life hell.

Good luck

I was just about to sit down and write a post and found Beauie has said it all. This is exactly what I would be doing as well. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and move on.

[casowner]

If the person has paid for a puppy with papers I would presume that they are still entitled to the papers, I would contact your governing body and advise them that the pup had died but unless you are refunding the purchase price of the puppy I think they should get them. They may want them to keep them as a record for future use to check lineage of any other pup that they look at or they may want them for what you have suggested, however I do believe that if they have paid for a registered pup they should be entitled to the papers. If you are being threatened then I would definately recommend reporting them to the authorities though. If you refuse to supply papers I would presume that under consumer law the client has not got what they paid for, and could go through Consumer Affairs to recover costs. If you have informed them that the remaining pups that you had were sick and one had died they may be going down that line anyway, whether they have a case or not that is for others to determine. Does it say on the pups papers the microchip number? If it does then they couldn't use them for another dog anyway and of course it would need to be identical also for them to go there.

I would request that all further contact between you and them be done via email so that there is a record of all conversations in case it is required in the future.

[megan_]

As a breeder, here's my two bobs worth......

There are many a "strange one" out in that world of ours and sometimes people do not show their true colours until "s*** hits the fan" so to speak....and with this person, I personally would do the following..

Your fault or not, just reimburse this person the full amount of the puppy...

Very likely this puppy died of something else unrelated to the illness of your litter but you may never likely know.

I would send the dead pup's rego papers back to Dogs Vic....do not supply even a copy of the pup's rego papers to this person.

Tell him you're very sorry for his loss (be nice & always polite) but mention as the pup has died, the papers MUST be send back to Dogs Vic (rules & reg's)...lastly, mention his sentence "I know where you live" in that you considered it to be a threat and have made mention about it to friends & the police.

Sometimes it is best just to "end" situations fast & count your losses rather than drag things on which could make your life hell.

Good luck

great advice. Small price to pay to get a crazy out of your hair!

[Rubric]

Thank you for your replies.

@ nickojoy I am not sure what caused the e-coli infection, I do not feed raw food or eggs to my puppies. The vet wasnt very helpful about a possible cause either.

@stef_83, none of the other puppies are sick, and I highly doubt that the e-coli infection would present itself after he had owned the dog for 6 weeks, if it was the same one my puppies contracted. His puppy hadnt even been here for 2 weeks by the time they got it. The incubation period is only 3-8 days.

My puppies have been home from hospital for 2 weeks now, and have not been in contact with any other dogs/puppies apart from their parents.

The new owners have said to me that they have had their puppies vaccinated (2nd one), and the vets have said they are in good health. And like I mentioned, from 4 puppies I had here, one did not contract the e coli, despite living in the same house.

@STITCH...I will do that, but Dogs Victoria people are far from helpful in most situations, so I am not expecting much.

@Beauie I agree with what you are saying about the reimbursment, he is not asking for money back for the puppy, just the papers, should he not get them.

This is the reason I find strange, and likely he is planning to get a Pitbull or something...Why else would he be so concerned about having papers for a dead puppy.

IDK. perhaps a refund will put an end to this, but perhaps not too...and like I said, who is to say the puppy is even dead, why would the vet feel it is well enough to be released from hospital on Sunday and it is dead on Monday....

Something very fishy about this story....

[stef_83]

@stef_83, none of the other puppies are sick, and I highly doubt that the e-coli infection would present itself after he had owned the dog for 6 weeks, if it was the same one my puppies contracted. His puppy hadnt even been here for 2 weeks by the time they got it. The incubation period is only 3-8 days.

My puppies have been home from hospital for 2 weeks now, and have not been in contact with any other dogs/puppies apart from their parents.

The new owners have said to me that they have had their puppies vaccinated (2nd one), and the vets have said they are in good health. And like I mentioned, from 4 puppies I had here, one did not contract the e coli, despite living in the same house.

so the new owner is full of it and probably needs money and thought this would be an easy way out

[Kirislin]

I might have misunderstood, I thought you meant he wanted the reimbursment for the puppy or do you mean he only wants the extra he would've paid for full pedigree papers? In which case it's only $30 or so isn't it. Could you send him the papers but write on them deceased and also tell him you've informed Dogs Vic that the puppy died.

[Rubric]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.....he only wants money back if he doesnt get the papers, which is why I feel something fishy is going on.....

If it was my puppy who died, the last thing I would be worrying about is getting the papers for a dead puppy....

Does anyone else think this sounds like a fishy story also ?

I agree about providing a copy of the papers with deceased writted accross them, that way he still has them, but cannot use them for anything illegal.

[megan_]

\

IDK. perhaps a refund will put an end to this, but perhaps not too...and like I said, who is to say the puppy is even dead, why would the vet feel it is well enough to be released from hospital on Sunday and it is dead on Monday....

vets can't hold a puppy if the owner doesn't want to pay for treatment. If the owner didn't want to pay for a stool analysis I doubt he wanted to pay for overnight care.

[Sandra777]

This sounds very strange to me.

I would simply tell him that the papers must be returned to Dogs Vic (since that seems to be the rule) but that you would gladly supply him with a pedigree of the puppy (from one of the internet sites or breedmate or something), and a receipt saying what he bought (if you haven't already done so) but on both I would be clearly marking the pup's microchip number AND attaching a clear photo of it's markings.

[Diva]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.....he only wants money back if he doesnt get the papers, which is why I feel something fishy is going on.....

This sounds lots of alarm bells for me too. Sounds like he wants to use the papers somehow.

[Christina]

I would not send the papers or a pedigree copy even if they had deceased stamped on them or something. People can do all sorts of clever things with photoshop etc.

Why would they want them ?

[Kirislin]

I would not send the papers or a pedigree copy even if they had deceased stamped on them or something. People can do all sorts of clever things with photoshop etc.

Why would they want them ?

Yes but if she advises Dogs Vic that the puppy is already dead then he cannot use those papers for another dog. Unless of course Dogs Vic are very shoddy with their records.