Why Are Some Pups Sold Without Papers Altogether

[GardenofEden]

I would have thought one of the important reasons to have papers, particularly in Queensland is that without them, if you wanted to do any of the performance disciplines, you would have to register the dog as an Associate - and in Queensland, though not elsewhere, that would limit your options in relation to registering future non-papered dogs.

Perhaps it is simply a case of the breeder knowing that I am situated in NSW, not QLD.

Are you saying that any dog that is to partake in trials, etc...has to have reg. papers from the breeders? (not sure what you mean exactly). What about mutts performing in discipline?

[Bjelkier]

the money was the reason i didnt get saffrons papers because her breeder said $800 with and $450 without so i went without

Is it just me or does this sounds dodgy as hell? I would never purchase a dog without pedigree papers unless I was adopting from a shelter or rescue group.

It seems to happen quite a fair bit where puppies that are sold as pets do not always come with limited reg. papers. Is it all that important?

Yes it is. If a breeder is willing to break the rules in one way, then they probably will in others. And no matter what you believe, without papers supplied you can't KNOW the breeder is registered or that the pup is pedigree. May as well pay $50 for a mutt at the pound.

It costs about $30 to register a dog (on the main or limit register) and so charging stupid amounts extra for papers is a con. Most likely it's a dodgy breeder who will convince you not to get papers with the high amount because they can't actually supply them.

ML, it seems to be quite prevalent where reg. breeders sell pups without limited reg. papers. I am not fussed with that although I am surprised that it is law that they must supply limited reg. papers and yet opt not to do so. I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Another thing I have noticed is that pups with full reg. papers are always selling for an extra $100-$200. I have never come across a pup with full reg. papers selling for an extra $30 only.

Thats not the case with a lot of breeders.

I can honnestly say I don't know one breeder personally who sells their dogs for more because of certain kinds of papers. (But I don't know everyone so it might be more common then I am aware of)

Further more they shouldn't be charging more for the papers in the first place

Edited May 17, 2010 by Wolfsong

[poodlefan]

I would have thought one of the important reasons to have papers, particularly in Queensland is that without them, if you wanted to do any of the performance disciplines, you would have to register the dog as an Associate - and in Queensland, though not elsewhere, that would limit your options in relation to registering future non-papered dogs.

Perhaps it is simply a case of the breeder knowing that I am situated in NSW, not QLD.

Are you saying that any dog that is to partake in trials, etc...has to have reg. papers from the breeders? (not sure what you mean exactly). What about mutts performing in discipline?

Until quite recently, DogsQld did not accept non-papered dogs in its performance events. They do now but I think there's a lifetime maximum of two Associate (non-papered dogs) per person that will be accepted.

All other states accept non pedigreed dogs registered as Associates but that still rules out most performance events at breed specialties.

I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Were both parents on full register?

Edited May 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[MolassesLass]

ML, it seems to be quite prevalent where reg. breeders sell pups without limited reg. papers. I am not fussed with that although I am surprised that it is law that they must supply limited reg. papers and yet opt not to do so. I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Another thing I have noticed is that pups with full reg. papers are always selling for an extra $100-$200. I have never come across a pup with full reg. papers selling for an extra $30 only.

Not law but a rule of the ANKC via the state bodies (DogsQld, DogsNSW, etc).

I don't know who your breeder is but being able to send you photocopies of the supposed parents papers doesn't prove a thing.

As I said, the cost of registering on EITHER register is about $30, the difference in cost between main and limit is about quality and the extra things you can do with a MR (main register) dog. I was pointing out that $800 with papers and $450 without has nothing to do with the cost of registering.

[GardenofEden]

the money was the reason i didnt get saffrons papers because her breeder said $800 with and $450 without so i went without

Is it just me or does this sounds dodgy as hell? I would never purchase a dog without pedigree papers unless I was adopting from a shelter or rescue group.

It seems to happen quite a fair bit where puppies that are sold as pets do not always come with limited reg. papers. Is it all that important?

Yes it is. If a breeder is willing to break the rules in one way, then they probably will in others. And no matter what you believe, without papers supplied you can't KNOW the breeder is registered or that the pup is pedigree. May as well pay $50 for a mutt at the pound.

It costs about $30 to register a dog (on the main or limit register) and so charging stupid amounts extra for papers is a con. Most likely it's a dodgy breeder who will convince you not to get papers with the high amount because they can't actually supply them.

ML, it seems to be quite prevalent where reg. breeders sell pups without limited reg. papers. I am not fussed with that although I am surprised that it is law that they must supply limited reg. papers and yet opt not to do so. I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Another thing I have noticed is that pups with full reg. papers are always selling for an extra $100-$200. I have never come across a pup with full reg. papers selling for an extra $30 only.

Thats not the case with a lot of breeders.

I can honnestly say I don't know one breeder personally who sells their dogs for more because of certain kinds of papers.

Further more they shouldn't be charging more for the papers in the first place

A friend had enquired about a pup and after much discussion and a fair few questions answered, she decided to go ahead with a pup. She was asked as to whether she wanted a pup solely as a pet or to breed/show. She was told that if she wanted to breed/show she would have to pay an extra $200. I found myself in the very same situation when I was out to get a CKCS. I spoke to quite a few breeders and the same thing applied. If I wanted a CKCS to breed with I would be required to pay between $200-$500 extra for full rego. I spoke to 6 breeders all up.

[GardenofEden]

I would have thought one of the important reasons to have papers, particularly in Queensland is that without them, if you wanted to do any of the performance disciplines, you would have to register the dog as an Associate - and in Queensland, though not elsewhere, that would limit your options in relation to registering future non-papered dogs.

Perhaps it is simply a case of the breeder knowing that I am situated in NSW, not QLD.

Are you saying that any dog that is to partake in trials, etc...has to have reg. papers from the breeders? (not sure what you mean exactly). What about mutts performing in discipline?

Until quite recently, DogsQld did not accept non-papered dogs in its performance events. They do now but I think there's a lifetime maximum of two Associate (non-papered dogs) per person that will be accepted.

All other states accept non pedigreed dogs registered as Associates but that still rules out most performance events at breed specialties.

I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Were both parents on full register?

Yes, both parents are on full register. Thanks for the info.

[ellz]

BTW, the "breeder" having copies of both parents' papers doesn't necessarily make them legitimate OR a registered breeder.

Many "breeders" can provide copies of parental registration certificates, as given to them (or other people) by the breeders of the parents. It is whether or not the litter and puppy are registered and the "breeder" can provide the puppy registration certificates, whether they are a registered breeder with the state controlling body and whether they are current members and hold a prefix that says whether or not they are legit.

[poodlefan]

A friend had enquired about a pup and after much discussion and a fair few questions answered, she decided to go ahead with a pup. She was asked as to whether she wanted a pup solely as a pet or to breed/show. She was told that if she wanted to breed/show she would have to pay an extra $200. I found myself in the very same situation when I was out to get a CKCS. I spoke to quite a few breeders and the same thing applied. If I wanted a CKCS to breed with I would be required to pay between $200-$500 extra for full rego. I spoke to 6 breeders all up.

Even with limited (as opposed to full) registration, you should still get papers.

There's a difference between paying a premium for a show quality dog and not getting any papers at all.

[ellz]

Yes, both parents are on full register. Thanks for the info.

Are you positive? If you only saw photocopies of their registration certificates, you won't know what colour they are (unless they were coloured copies). Limited Registration and Main Registration certificates are printed on different coloured paper with different coloured ink.

[nickojoy]

A friend had enquired about a pup and after much discussion and a fair few questions answered, she decided to go ahead with a pup. She was asked as to whether she wanted a pup solely as a pet or to breed/show. She was told that if she wanted to breed/show she would have to pay an extra $200. I found myself in the very same situation when I was out to get a CKCS. I spoke to quite a few breeders and the same thing applied. If I wanted a CKCS to breed with I would be required to pay between $200-$500 extra for full rego. I spoke to 6 breeders all up.

Even with limited (as opposed to full) registration, you should still get papers.

There's a difference between paying a premium for a show quality dog and not getting any papers at all.

Don't know about the other states, but in NSW it is only $26 for main and $19.85 for limited registration. Why are the breeders charging that amount of money?

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Did this 'breeder' have a kennel name and did you check with the CCCQ that their prefix is current - cause if it is not then they are not governed by any code of ethics what so ever.

Edited May 17, 2010 by First Time Puppy Owner

[GardenofEden]

Yes, both parents are on full register. Thanks for the info.

Are you positive? If you only saw photocopies of their registration certificates, you won't know what colour they are (unless they were coloured copies). Limited Registration and Main Registration certificates are printed on different coloured paper with different coloured ink.

I have the address of the breeder. I did check with Dogs Queensland before purchasing the pup. The breeder is indeed legitimate. I specifically asked Dogs QLD to compare notes with the photocopies that I had and it is true that the photocopies I have are exactly like the originals and the originals are definitely not of limited registration. Thanks.

[oakway]

the money was the reason i didnt get saffrons papers because her breeder said $800 with and $450 without so i went without

Is it just me or does this sounds dodgy as hell? I would never purchase a dog without pedigree papers unless I was adopting from a shelter or rescue group.

It seems to happen quite a fair bit where puppies that are sold as pets do not always come with limited reg. papers. Is it all that important?

Yes it is. If a breeder is willing to break the rules in one way, then they probably will in others. And no matter what you believe, without papers supplied you can't KNOW the breeder is registered or that the pup is pedigree. May as well pay $50 for a mutt at the pound.

It costs about $30 to register a dog (on the main or limit register) and so charging stupid amounts extra for papers is a con. Most likely it's a dodgy breeder who will convince you not to get papers with the high amount because they can't actually supply them.

ML, it seems to be quite prevalent where reg. breeders sell pups without limited reg. papers. I am not fussed with that although I am surprised that it is law that they must supply limited reg. papers and yet opt not to do so. I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Another thing I have noticed is that pups with full reg. papers are always selling for an extra $100-$200. I have never come across a pup with full reg. papers selling for an extra $30 only.

Thats not the case with a lot of breeders.

I can honnestly say I don't know one breeder personally who sells their dogs for more because of certain kinds of papers.

Further more they shouldn't be charging more for the papers in the first place

A friend had enquired about a pup and after much discussion and a fair few questions answered, she decided to go ahead with a pup. She was asked as to whether she wanted a pup solely as a pet or to breed/show. She was told that if she wanted to breed/show she would have to pay an extra $200. I found myself in the very same situation when I was out to get a CKCS. I spoke to quite a few breeders and the same thing applied. If I wanted a CKCS to breed with I would be required to pay between $200-$500 extra for full rego. I spoke to 6 breeders all up.

That can be answered quite simply as some breeders charge more for breeding and show stock. If you did not want that option your dog should have come on Limited Registration.

[Bilbo Baggins]

the money was the reason i didnt get saffrons papers because her breeder said $800 with and $450 without so i went without

Is it just me or does this sounds dodgy as hell? I would never purchase a dog without pedigree papers unless I was adopting from a shelter or rescue group.

It seems to happen quite a fair bit where puppies that are sold as pets do not always come with limited reg. papers. Is it all that important?

Yes it is. If a breeder is willing to break the rules in one way, then they probably will in others. And no matter what you believe, without papers supplied you can't KNOW the breeder is registered or that the pup is pedigree. May as well pay $50 for a mutt at the pound.

It costs about $30 to register a dog (on the main or limit register) and so charging stupid amounts extra for papers is a con. Most likely it's a dodgy breeder who will convince you not to get papers with the high amount because they can't actually supply them.

ML, it seems to be quite prevalent where reg. breeders sell pups without limited reg. papers. I am not fussed with that although I am surprised that it is law that they must supply limited reg. papers and yet opt not to do so. I do know for a fact that this breeder is indeed legitimate as he/she sent me photocopies of the pup's parents reg. papers. No problem with mutts, there are some beautiful mutts out there but I really wanted a CKCS.

Another thing I have noticed is that pups with full reg. papers are always selling for an extra $100-$200. I have never come across a pup with full reg. papers selling for an extra $30 only.

Well interesting anyone can "do up" a set of parents papers amd photcopy them.

[nickojoy]

Yes, both parents are on full register. Thanks for the info.

Are you positive? If you only saw photocopies of their registration certificates, you won't know what colour they are (unless they were coloured copies). Limited Registration and Main Registration certificates are printed on different coloured paper with different coloured ink.

I have the address of the breeder. I did check with Dogs Queensland before purchasing the pup. The breeder is indeed legitimate. I specifically asked Dogs QLD to compare notes with the photocopies that I had and it is true that the photocopies I have are exactly like the originals and the originals are definitely not of limited registration. Thanks.

The breeder still would have had to register the pup with dogs QLD and the breeder may be retaining the papers to use on a dodgy dog to breed from? Maybe having a couple of back to back litters with a bitch but using the pups papers! It has happened before I hope that isn't the case

[Bilbo Baggins]

I would have thought one of the important reasons to have papers, particularly in Queensland is that without them, if you wanted to do any of the performance disciplines, you would have to register the dog as an Associate - and in Queensland, though not elsewhere, that would limit your options in relation to registering future non-papered dogs.

Perhaps it is simply a case of the breeder knowing that I am situated in NSW, not QLD.

Are you saying that any dog that is to partake in trials, etc...has to have reg. papers from the breeders? (not sure what you mean exactly). What about mutts performing in discipline?

Yep papers required.

[ellz]

My guess is that the breeder took the "easy" way out and registered all of the puppies on Main and couldn't be arsed downgrading to Limit so that was why Limited Registration wasn't offered.

I'm still a bit curious as to why you would have copies of the parents registration, your dog is registered and yet the breeder didn't give you so much as a photocopy of the registration papers of the dog itself??????

[GardenofEden]

Yes, both parents are on full register. Thanks for the info.

Are you positive? If you only saw photocopies of their registration certificates, you won't know what colour they are (unless they were coloured copies). Limited Registration and Main Registration certificates are printed on different coloured paper with different coloured ink.

I have the address of the breeder. I did check with Dogs Queensland before purchasing the pup. The breeder is indeed legitimate. I specifically asked Dogs QLD to compare notes with the photocopies that I had and it is true that the photocopies I have are exactly like the originals and the originals are definitely not of limited registration. Thanks.

The breeder still would have had to register the pup with dogs QLD and the breeder may be retaining the papers to use on a dodgy dog to breed from? Maybe having a couple of back to back litters with a bitch but using the pups papers! It has happened before I hope that isn't the case

I don't really know as to why I wasn't supplied with limited reg. papers, but the breeder sounds very nice and genuine to me and I do have a great dog that I am over the moon about; I could not have hoped for a better cavalier.

[GardenofEden]

My guess is that the breeder took the "easy" way out and registered all of the puppies on Main and couldn't be arsed downgrading to Limit so that was why Limited Registration wasn't offered.

I'm still a bit curious as to why you would have copies of the parents registration, your dog is registered and yet the breeder didn't give you so much as a photocopy of the registration papers of the dog itself??????

I will make a point of speaking to the breeder and will ask if that is indeed the case. You have raised an interesting point here ellz. There was no mention of a photocopy of the reg. papers for the pup itself which leaves me feeling like a dumbass and I normally consider myself to be....well, let's say of slightly above average intelligence. I don't profess to be a brain surgeon though.

I just hope that this thread doesnt turn ugly; please everyone lets keep it cool.

Edited May 17, 2010 by GardenofEden

[Bilbo Baggins]

My guess is that the breeder took the "easy" way out and registered all of the puppies on Main and couldn't be arsed downgrading to Limit so that was why Limited Registration wasn't offered.

I'm still a bit curious as to why you would have copies of the parents registration, your dog is registered and yet the breeder didn't give you so much as a photocopy of the registration papers of the dog itself??????

I will make a point of speaking to the breeder and will ask if that is indeed the case. You have raised an interesting point here ellz. There was no mention of a photocopy of the reg. papers for the pup itself which leaves me feeling like a dumbass and I normally consider myself to be....well, let's say of slightly above average intelligence. I don't profess to be a brain surgeon though.

I just hope that this thread doesnt turn ugly; please everyone lets keep it cool.

GoE I was going to say before that a good cav breeder should also give you a copy of the parents eye and heart checks.