Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[Shaar]

yes they can but my point was limited registered pups are not faulty or 2nd class

I'm not saying that is always the case, but a lot of the time it is.

As I said, it mostly to covers the breeders bum, not the owner.

I know if I had spent a lot of time and effort importing bloodlines and spent years carefully selecting breeding stock, I wouldn't want it to fall in the wrong hands'

[Zug Zug]

A few months ago the owner had posted on here that the bitch wasn't right (wasn't at the standard to breed from) and booked it in for desexing and had a new home lined up for her, the breeder was reading the replies here on DOL and rang the owner and said that was not to happen. The bitch wasn't allowed to be desexed as per the agreement, the agreement was written on their website under the pups details. The contract between the new owner and the breeder wasn't clear enough, (verbal) bitch had to go back to the breeder for a single mating, now bitch is pregnant, breeder and owner go halves in litter and bitch becomes fully owned by owner. The new owner had no choice in what Sired the litter either, he was DNA tested after the mating, I just hope he is clear! So producing low quality pups. I am unsure if the breeder has any restrictions on the registration of the litter if it is main or limited. HOPE NOT, hope they all are allowed to be limited registered or are allowed to be desexed prior to rehoming! Both the bitches from this litter it is happening to, the 2nd bitch hasn't yet come into season.

That is a nightmare.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Zug Zug

[Mystiqview]

A few months ago the owner had posted on here that the bitch wasn't right (wasn't at the standard to breed from) and booked it in for desexing and had a new home lined up for her, the breeder was reading the replies here on DOL and rang the owner and said that was not to happen. The bitch wasn't allowed to be desexed as per the agreement, the agreement was written on their website under the pups details. The contract between the new owner and the breeder wasn't clear enough, (verbal) bitch had to go back to the breeder for a single mating, now bitch is pregnant, breeder and owner go halves in litter and bitch becomes fully owned by owner. The new owner had no choice in what Sired the litter either, he was DNA tested after the mating, I just hope he is clear! So producing low quality pups. I am unsure if the breeder has any restrictions on the registration of the litter if it is main or limited. HOPE NOT, hope they all are allowed to be limited registered or are allowed to be desexed prior to rehoming! Both the bitches from this litter it is happening to, the 2nd bitch hasn't yet come into season.

That is a nightmare.

This kind of thing happens to the best of breeders. A pup goes to a home on certain conditions and one party fails to acknowledge the conditions they agreed to. Not just breeder to pet home, but breeder to breeder as well. A few friendships have been broken through breach of trust etc.

[Black Bronson]

1. There is a pick in every litter, but whether that pick is a show/breeding prospect is an entirely different story.

2. If a purchaser wants a Main Register dog, then they can simply "shop around" until they find a breeder who will sell them one. I'd bet pounds to peanuts they are out there in every breed. But in SOME breeds, you can pretty much guarantee that a breeder who will sell an unknown with no "strings attached" is probably little more than a registered BYB.

3. Limited Registration is essentially the equivalent of having a dog purchased with "no papers". The BIGGEST and by far most important detail is that the paperwork shows that the dog is purebred and the breed that it has been portrayed as. Purchase a puppy "without papers" from many sources and you'll be lucky to get that kind of identification guarantee.

4. Not every reputable breeder sells their puppies with strings attached. But generally those who do, don't so much want "control" but simply want to ensure that the puppy is reared into a healthy, sane dog in the same manner in which the breeder would have done so themselves.

5. There is no shame in having a dog with Limited Registration. What it DOES mean is that most breeders care enough about their prefix and bloodlines to not want to see them perpetuated in ways over which they cannot control but WILL invariably be blamed!

6. Showing desexed dogs isn't JUST a pet parade. There is an old saying "it is a shame he/she had never been bred from, but it is a sin had they never been seen!" I see properly run desexed classes and a desexed title as yet another avenue to evaluate potential additions to my breeding program. Some of the best dogs I've ever set eyes on have been desexed pets in somebody's backyard. And if they'd only had Limited Registration papers, I may well have been able to find out who bred them so that I could "go to the source".

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred.

Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???, we are shifting the goal posts in the breeders favour???. For the consumer, this is a backward step, no advantage to me in the current trend........if I pay the money for a good dog, I expect a full set of papers.

As a consumer, I am not interested in the breeders agenda, it's none of my business and the breeders role to me is someone having a puppy that's worthy of purchase in my eyes is all that matters to me. It's still a business transaction when money exchanges hands and breeder restrictions IMHO doesn't amount to particularly good deal. I don't buy a puppy to look after the breeders interests, it's in their interests to supply me and any other comsumer with a good dog. If it truns out a good dog, great I would support them totally, if it doesn't turn out, I will avoid those lines next time

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Shaar]

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders.

Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them.

Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Shaar

[stormie]

1. There is a pick in every litter, but whether that pick is a show/breeding prospect is an entirely different story.

2. If a purchaser wants a Main Register dog, then they can simply "shop around" until they find a breeder who will sell them one. I'd bet pounds to peanuts they are out there in every breed. But in SOME breeds, you can pretty much guarantee that a breeder who will sell an unknown with no "strings attached" is probably little more than a registered BYB.

3. Limited Registration is essentially the equivalent of having a dog purchased with "no papers". The BIGGEST and by far most important detail is that the paperwork shows that the dog is purebred and the breed that it has been portrayed as. Purchase a puppy "without papers" from many sources and you'll be lucky to get that kind of identification guarantee.

4. Not every reputable breeder sells their puppies with strings attached. But generally those who do, don't so much want "control" but simply want to ensure that the puppy is reared into a healthy, sane dog in the same manner in which the breeder would have done so themselves.

5. There is no shame in having a dog with Limited Registration. What it DOES mean is that most breeders care enough about their prefix and bloodlines to not want to see them perpetuated in ways over which they cannot control but WILL invariably be blamed!

6. Showing desexed dogs isn't JUST a pet parade. There is an old saying "it is a shame he/she had never been bred from, but it is a sin had they never been seen!" I see properly run desexed classes and a desexed title as yet another avenue to evaluate potential additions to my breeding program. Some of the best dogs I've ever set eyes on have been desexed pets in somebody's backyard. And if they'd only had Limited Registration papers, I may well have been able to find out who bred them so that I could "go to the source".

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred.

Sorry but rubbish. Limited register is nothing like having an unpapered dog. An unpapered dog is one you can't prove it's pedigree or the fact it's even a purebred. Limited Register is exactly the same as Main Register, just with showing and breeding restrictions. Simple.

[stormie]

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders.

Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them.

Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

Agreed. If I was a breeder, I'd be pretty annoyed to know one of the dogs I had bred and trusted with someone on the main register, was studding him out to other breeders if I hadn't approved. I'm all for breed improvement naturally, but I don't believe that putting all the quality pups on main to be bred by whoever because you'd very soon see the type that you'd put a lot of work in to create, go down the drain.

[Odin-Genie]

Breeders reclaiming a dog because it is good enough to breed and show is pretty harsh on pet owners.

Reclaiming a dog? Hell no! What? one rears the pup and then the breeder feels it is within her or his rights to claim it back? over my dead body

I would walk away immediately from a breeder who put that condition to me or any of the other conditions in the list except the desexing issue. Once I get a dog, it is part of my family. I take care of it and I decide what is right for it. If I am unsure I'll ask the breeders for advice.

And a breeder who expects to get a dog back has no clue about how people bond with dogs, or is only looking for a boarding place.

[Just love my dogs!]

I'm not sure that I agree 100% with the desexing debate. It depends very much on the breed size too - I would not buy a large or giant breed puppy that came desexed at 8 weeks. I think that if I wanted to go with a particular breeder and that was their policy then I would discuss this with them first.

We were told by our breeder that if (we were given the choice) we were going to desex our boy we should hold off for a few years to let him 'grow into his head'.

[Mystiqview]

1. There is a pick in every litter, but whether that pick is a show/breeding prospect is an entirely different story.

2. If a purchaser wants a Main Register dog, then they can simply "shop around" until they find a breeder who will sell them one. I'd bet pounds to peanuts they are out there in every breed. But in SOME breeds, you can pretty much guarantee that a breeder who will sell an unknown with no "strings attached" is probably little more than a registered BYB.

3. Limited Registration is essentially the equivalent of having a dog purchased with "no papers". The BIGGEST and by far most important detail is that the paperwork shows that the dog is purebred and the breed that it has been portrayed as. Purchase a puppy "without papers" from many sources and you'll be lucky to get that kind of identification guarantee.

4. Not every reputable breeder sells their puppies with strings attached. But generally those who do, don't so much want "control" but simply want to ensure that the puppy is reared into a healthy, sane dog in the same manner in which the breeder would have done so themselves.

5. There is no shame in having a dog with Limited Registration. What it DOES mean is that most breeders care enough about their prefix and bloodlines to not want to see them perpetuated in ways over which they cannot control but WILL invariably be blamed!

6. Showing desexed dogs isn't JUST a pet parade. There is an old saying "it is a shame he/she had never been bred from, but it is a sin had they never been seen!" I see properly run desexed classes and a desexed title as yet another avenue to evaluate potential additions to my breeding program. Some of the best dogs I've ever set eyes on have been desexed pets in somebody's backyard. And if they'd only had Limited Registration papers, I may well have been able to find out who bred them so that I could "go to the source".

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred.

Sorry but rubbish. Limited register is nothing like having an unpapered dog. An unpapered dog is one you can't prove it's pedigree or the fact it's even a purebred. Limited Register is exactly the same as Main Register, just with showing and breeding restrictions. Simple.

I agree. what a load of crock!! Limit Register is papered. Just not to show or breed. It still has the breeder's name on the papers. IF something goes wrong with the animal, it is still the breeder's reputation. Unpapered, there is not proof that the dog you have is from xyz.

Limit Register is still pedigree. As someone in gundogs have said a dog needs to be pedigree to compete. Likewise with many other sports. You have associate register for those mutts. But to compete as a pedigree, you have papers. Some of these sports dogs are not second rate at all. In many ways a successful sport dog is better than a dog with a CH. Points and titles are REALLY awarded on merit, not turning up to an outback show somewhere and getting an auto 6 point. Do that a few time and you have a CH.

Qld at last count, still only let ppl have only maximum 2 non papered dogs before a person had to go get a pedigree to compete in obedience etc. Both dogs had to be registered together. So you could not go rescue a pound dog today, register it on AR then in a months time get another and register it on AR.

Other states have had much better rules with relation to AR dogs.

[ellz]

Black Bronson, if you're going to quote, then do me the courtesy of quoting the entire paragraph IN CONTEXT and not just picked at to suit your own argument.

The only thing I will agree with amongst your statements is that of not getting involved in other breeders' politics. I've been around the dog scene for a very long time and am sick to the back teeth of having to fight other people's battles.

If I want to use a stud dog and that dog is the BEST match for my bitch, then no matter who owns it, I will enquire. If they say no, then I move onto Plan B (there is always a Plan B). And likewise, if somebody I don't like contacts me and asks to use a dog of mine then I will consider it IF I believe that the match is a good one. I will not deliberately go out of my way to step on another breeders toes but I am doing this for the benefit of my breed and I will not allow personal likes or dislikes or petty politics to stop me from making the best decisions accordingly. If somebody doesn't like that I've used, let use or purchased from or sold a puppy to another source...then that is THEIR problem and not mine. I'll make my own friends and enemies thanks.

[whippets]

Totally agree with Ellz. I don't care who the breeder is. If I think a dog will suit one of my girls I will ask to use the dog. Not using a good dog because you don't like the owner is cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Breeder politics has no place in breeding good dogs IMO. All that kind of crap is to the detriment of the breed in the long run.

[Greytmate]

As a consumer, I am not interested in the breeders agenda, it's none of my business and the breeders role to me is someone having a puppy that's worthy of purchase in my eyes is all that matters to me. It's still a business transaction when money exchanges hands and breeder restrictions IMHO doesn't amount to particularly good deal. I don't buy a puppy to look after the breeders interests, it's in their interests to supply me and any other comsumer with a good dog. If it truns out a good dog, great I would support them totally, if it doesn't turn out, I will avoid those lines next time

Breeders may not want to sell their dogs to people that have no respect for their agenda.

You talk as though there is a large dog factory out there supplying all the breeders with stock.

You would do better if you saw the best bred dogs as being hand-crafted individually by an artist. Not everyone will get one, and your attitude almost guarantees that some breeders will never sell a dog to you.

Not all breeders just "sell dogs". Some breed for the improvement of the breed and that may mean that some breeders will not place dogs with people that have no respect for their breeding agenda. If they were only interested in retail sales they could put the puppies in the shop to sell.

Word gets around too. Your opinion has probably been noted by many.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Totally agree with Ellz. I don't care who the breeder is. If I think a dog will suit one of my girls I will ask to use the dog. Not using a good dog because you don't like the owner is cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Breeder politics has no place in breeding good dogs IMO. All that kind of crap is to the detriment of the breed in the long run.

Well said Ellz and Whppets"

After all it is Betterment of the breed NOT betterment of my social status in Dog Circles!

Luckily the premier breeders rise above the Breed Politics and are highly respected by all.

[Black Bronson]

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders.

Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them.

Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

Breeder politics at times runs deep to the point of being rediculous. Several times I have come across a situation where a particular dog is a good prospective sire for a particular bitch but the breeder won't use that dog because the dog owner is a person that the breeder doesn't like???. That doesn't help the breed, in fact it restricts the breeds progress, but similar scenarios based upon breeder politics happens often which I don't agree with that mentality.

[Black Bronson]

1. There is a pick in every litter, but whether that pick is a show/breeding prospect is an entirely different story.

2. If a purchaser wants a Main Register dog, then they can simply "shop around" until they find a breeder who will sell them one. I'd bet pounds to peanuts they are out there in every breed. But in SOME breeds, you can pretty much guarantee that a breeder who will sell an unknown with no "strings attached" is probably little more than a registered BYB.

3. Limited Registration is essentially the equivalent of having a dog purchased with "no papers". The BIGGEST and by far most important detail is that the paperwork shows that the dog is purebred and the breed that it has been portrayed as. Purchase a puppy "without papers" from many sources and you'll be lucky to get that kind of identification guarantee.

4. Not every reputable breeder sells their puppies with strings attached. But generally those who do, don't so much want "control" but simply want to ensure that the puppy is reared into a healthy, sane dog in the same manner in which the breeder would have done so themselves.

5. There is no shame in having a dog with Limited Registration. What it DOES mean is that most breeders care enough about their prefix and bloodlines to not want to see them perpetuated in ways over which they cannot control but WILL invariably be blamed!

6. Showing desexed dogs isn't JUST a pet parade. There is an old saying "it is a shame he/she had never been bred from, but it is a sin had they never been seen!" I see properly run desexed classes and a desexed title as yet another avenue to evaluate potential additions to my breeding program. Some of the best dogs I've ever set eyes on have been desexed pets in somebody's backyard. And if they'd only had Limited Registration papers, I may well have been able to find out who bred them so that I could "go to the source".

That's what I don't like about limited registration which is essentially equivilent to a unpapered dog. When I first began purchasing purebreed dogs in the early 80's you had the choice of papered or unpapered...........there was no big deal other than unpapered was always cheaper. Some people would go unpapered and save some money, some would go papered to have the papers, and not all papered purchases were shown or bred.

Sorry but rubbish. Limited register is nothing like having an unpapered dog. An unpapered dog is one you can't prove it's pedigree or the fact it's even a purebred. Limited Register is exactly the same as Main Register, just with showing and breeding restrictions. Simple.

Showing and breeding restrictions is consistant with both unpapered and limited registration same thing. I can understand the limited register is good for perhaps proving a breed doesn't fall under dangerous dog legislation would be helpful, but other than that, the limited register has no real purpose. In competition or trialling, what's the use of limited registered great dog that cannot be reproduced, same goes for working dogs???. Limited register on a good breed example shuts a door prematurely which should be left open as you never know how a dog may turn out.

[ellz]

Limited register on a good breed example shuts a door prematurely which should be left open as you never know how a dog may turn out.

Which is precisely why Limited Register CAN be raised to Main Register upon application by registered owner and breeder of record.

Edited May 18, 2010 by ellz

[Black Bronson]

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders.

Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them.

Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

Agreed. If I was a breeder, I'd be pretty annoyed to know one of the dogs I had bred and trusted with someone on the main register, was studding him out to other breeders if I hadn't approved. I'm all for breed improvement naturally, but I don't believe that putting all the quality pups on main to be bred by whoever because you'd very soon see the type that you'd put a lot of work in to create, go down the drain.

Why would the type "go down the drain", that's not the standard result by any means. Often the original breeders placing their dogs on limited to "protect their lines", are not overly experienced anyway, neither are the lines their creations. Breeders like to think they know what they are doing, but many a time a breeder has shown me show results on a stud for the reason to sire a litter. When asking what the dog brings to the table in terms of traits........they don't know

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson, if you're going to quote, then do me the courtesy of quoting the entire paragraph IN CONTEXT and not just picked at to suit your own argument.

The only thing I will agree with amongst your statements is that of not getting involved in other breeders' politics. I've been around the dog scene for a very long time and am sick to the back teeth of having to fight other people's battles.

If I want to use a stud dog and that dog is the BEST match for my bitch, then no matter who owns it, I will enquire. If they say no, then I move onto Plan B (there is always a Plan B). And likewise, if somebody I don't like contacts me and asks to use a dog of mine then I will consider it IF I believe that the match is a good one. I will not deliberately go out of my way to step on another breeders toes but I am doing this for the benefit of my breed and I will not allow personal likes or dislikes or petty politics to stop me from making the best decisions accordingly. If somebody doesn't like that I've used, let use or purchased from or sold a puppy to another source...then that is THEIR problem and not mine. I'll make my own friends and enemies thanks.

Not all breeders operate with your perspectives Ellz unfortunately

[Black Bronson]

Limited register on a good breed example shuts a door prematurely which should be left open as you never know how a dog may turn out.

Which is precisely why Limited Register CAN be raised to Main Register upon application by registered owner and breeder of record.

Not all breeders will raise a limited to main............seen some massive arguments over that before