Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[WreckitWhippet]

I've watched breeders raise pups with love and care, put off vaccinating them until an age where the vaccine if effective. They've done this to minimise the number of vaccines they'll have in a lifetime and in some cases sent them off to their new homes needing only one booster at 15 months.

They've raised them on natural diets, limited the chemicals they've been exposed to and have given them the very best start a puppy could have in terms of health and socialisation.

I've then watched new owners allow their vet to give them a C7 vaccine and pump them full of chemicals in the form of pro-heart and un-do all the care the breeder has taken.

Personally I am very vocal about what vaccines my pups are not to be given and also things like PHSR. I am like this because I care about what I breed and how I raise it and I want the pup to live a long and healthy life.

[huski]

I've watched breeders raise pups with love and care, put off vaccinating them until an age where the vaccine if effective. They've done this to minimise the number of vaccines they'll have in a lifetime and in some cases sent them off to their new homes needing only one booster at 15 months.

I understand that, but I don't understand not vaccinating at all.

[Zug Zug]

Fair enough - that is not your dog in that case you are boarding it for the breeder essentially. And I guess you may or may not keep it down the track depending on what you both agree.

Not what was being discussed today, but I can see why a breeder may want that as an option from time to time, at their cost.

ETA: this was in reply to Greytmate's post.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Zug Zug

[Zug Zug]

SBT123 you obviously care deeply about your pups. If I was wanting a pup from you I'd want to find out more about why you didn't want them to have different vaccines, what alternatives you would suggest, what protection those alternatives would offer, and then I'd have to make my decision whether I supported that approach.

I agree with an earlier post that it would not be right to take a pup from a breeder, agree to their terms, and then ignore them and do something else. That would be dishonest and disrespectful of the breeder's commitment to the pup's welfare.

At the same time, that also means making a very careful decision about what conditions I would agree to, because I would be standing by those commitments so I'd need to be sure. Because in the end I'm going to love this dog and I need to be sure I am giving it the best care and upbringing I can.

[Just love my dogs!]

Those conditions are ridiculous! :D

The breeders where I bought my pups from were not that strict. I don't think they had any of those conditions!

[Greytmate]

Fair enough - that is not your dog in that case you are boarding it for the breeder essentially. And I guess you may or may not keep it down the track depending on what you both agree.

Not what was being discussed today, but I can see why a breeder may want that as an option from time to time, at their cost.

ETA: this was in reply to Greytmate's post.

It was this condition especially that inspired my post -

" it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it)"

That is purely boarding it for the breeder, and I would discourage any pet buyer.

The one that you wouldn't accept -

"it can never be taken to any vet but needs to be taken back to the breeder herself if anything is ever wrong with it "

I would accept it as part of a health guarantee. But not as a general condition. For instance if the dog had bad hips, I would give the breeder the right to take the dog to her own vet for an opinion, before I would make any demands for treatment or compensation. If they have to pay, they get to choose the vet.

However I would not buy a dog where I did not get the choice of vet at all, and I would want to choose who actually treated my dog. If my vet was more expensive than the breeder's vet, it would be my choice to pay extra.

When I was selling dogs, one condition of sale that we had on our contract was that the owner would obey all local dog laws. If you live in Brisbane, the law says you have to vaccinate your dog, regardless of what your breeder thinks.

[Just love my dogs!]

I respect a breeder's views on diet and desexing as they are the ones who know their lines inside and out and know what works and what does not. But ultimately with diet - I will feed what I am happy works best for the dog as an individual but would consult with the breeder (as I have done previously).

As for things like vet treatment, grooming, vaccination etc - these are a matter for me and the decisions I make are based on my research and own beliefs.

Personally I think I would struggle to bond with a dog that I essentially had no say over the care, maintenance and upkeep of.

Many of those conditions suggested would be unenforceable - the law regards a dog as a good - just like a TV, washing machine or a bike. Once you have paid for it then (unless it is in joint names with the breeder) then it is your dog to do what you please with.

SBT123 does raise an interesting point though - there is a trend for some puppy buyers to want to hold the breeder responsible for everything that goes wrong. To use the same analogy above - you would not expect to hold a bike shop responsible if your bike was damaged after you left it in the rain, pushed it over or did not oil parts...

You made some very valid points!

[Red Fox]

- it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it)

That one alone would make me run for the hills!

Were you looking to buy a pet or a showdog in joint names with the breeder? If it's the latter I can understand some of the conditions.. but as a pet things like which groomer or vet you want to use or what you want to feed should be your choice.

If it were me I'd want to find a breeder who I clicked with and had similar ideals to me. If you are pro raw feeding you will probably get along better with a breeder that feels the same, if you are not then look for a breeder who feeds a good quality commercial food. If you want to vaccinate then dont look at a breeder who wants to go all natural and wont comprimise on it.

Good luck, I'm sure you will find a great breeder soon

Oh and OT, but still in love with your little poodle x girl I got to meet last weekend. She is gorgeous! :D

[Zug Zug]

That is purely boarding it for the breeder, and I would discourage any pet buyer.

Yes fair to say I don't think she felt encouraged.

A health guarantee is not something I am familiar with. When I got my bichon (from a pet shop - if only I knew then what I know now...) he turned out to be very sick and within 2 days he was at the vet getting emergency treatment for what they said was corona virus. It was touch and go - I nearly lost him several times.

I asked the pet shop to help pay the vet bills on that occasion. They declined - but said I could bring my dog back for a refund if I wished. They said they would put him out the back and re-sell him if he survived his illness. I kid you not!

That wasn't an option for me. 2 days in I was already committed to him. I just spent the money and luckily he got well and 12 years later he's still the perfect dog.

In that case I had spent $320 on buying the pup (my, how things have changed haven't they?) and I spent over $1,000 at the vet in the first 2 weeks I had him. That was just emergency care - didn't include the vaccinations, microchipping, desexing etc. which all came later.

I wanted the pet shop to contribute the $320 I had paid them towards his veterinary care. But I didn't want to give him back to them, so it didn't happen.

Not a good experience, but he's a great dog so it was all was worth it. But I won't go back to a pet shop. Their approach to his welfare really shocked me. They just did not care.

[Zug Zug]

Oh thanks SecretKei! She was a tricky dog when I first got her 10 years ago but soooooo much a part of me now.

I know poodle x's are a bit of a no-no on this website, but she was a pound dog so I think I'm allowed to brag she's still pretty cute and very fit for an old gal!

Now that you've got me started - here is a photo of my 2 beautiful older dogs: (ETA oh ok 2 more photos as well)

Edited May 15, 2010 by Zug Zug

[RubyStar]

- it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it)

:D Ridiculous. Run!!

OT: What is your poodle x crossed with? I always thought she was just a mini poodle, I obviously don't know my small breeds

[sas]

I've been making some enquiries with a few breeders over the past few months, in the lead-up to possibly getting my next puppy next year. I also made a phone call to a breeder on behalf of a close friend today, because 12 months on from the death of her beloved dog she is now ready to look for another one.

It has been a long time since I've looked for a dog. My 2 are 11 and 12 years old. So I'm not sure if a lot has changed or if I just wasn't aware previously of how many conditions breeders are putting on people who want to purchase puppies from them.

So far, the list (albeit not all from the same breeder) includes:

- it needs to be desexed (fair enough)

- it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it)

- it needs to be regularly vaccinated

- it is not allowed to be vaccinated for anything ever

- it needs to go to the breeder's vet, not yours

- it can never be taken to any vet but needs to be taken back to the breeder herself if anything is ever wrong with it (this one is an absolute deal-breaker for me I have to say - if my dog is sick it's going to my vet end of story - but I digress...)

- it needs to be fed on a raw diet only

- it needs to go to a groomer of the breeder's choice

- no kids

And that's all I can think of for now, but that's just what I can remember and the list goes on.

I expected some conditions to be placed on a puppy buyer, and I am a very responsible dog owner and happy to agree to things like keeping the dog fenced, safe, well cared for, return to breeder if we ever can't keep it etc. But some of the things in the list above make me think 'Who's dog will this be? Yours or mine?'

I'm wondering if this is normal practice now. What kinds of conditions do people think are fair and reasonable? And how much is too much?

If the dog is in your name and your name only and you paid full price for the dog, you can do with the dog as you wish.

[Zug Zug]

Rubystar, she's a pound dog so we will never know what she's crossed with.

We think probably a kangaroo that knew how to climb trees.

Then again, maybe that's just the poodle bit! :D

Sas important point. I guess I'd like to stay in touch (and on good terms) with the breeder I eventually buy from though.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Zug Zug

[sas]

Sas important point. I guess I'd like to stay in touch (and on good terms) with the breeder I eventually buy from though.

Sure, if that's what you want.

I'm just stating the legal stance on it.

Desexing agreements or any other agreements about what you must feed and vaccinate don't actually stand up in court anyway (if you own the dog outright).

Edited May 15, 2010 by sas

[Zug Zug]

I wondered about that. Especially with feeding and aspects of medical care. I mean, these things can change over a dog's life and our knowledge can change too so how could you be held to something that was set down at a point in time?

Are there any aspects of an agreement that are legally enforceable? Or is the whole thing really just a statement of good intentions?

[Mystiqview]

pretty much a statement of good intentions.

Things like Ivemectin (commonly found in heart worm meds) and collies are concerning as collies are sensitive to Ivemectin and it can kill. Not too bad with BCs, but still possible.

High protein diets with Dalmatians are also known issues.

Things like this should be observed by puppy buyers and a responsibility of breeders to inform puppy buyers of known issues within the chosen breed

[Black Bronson]

I think some breeders get too carried away with their own perceived importance really :D When I purchase a quality bred puppy, I want it on main register with no restrictions. Unless a puppy has obvious faults, my 3 year old is on limited register due to a coat fault in the breed, fair enough, but a well bred puppy may turn out very good and very breed worthy and shouldn't be restricted with desexing clauses or limited registers as you never know until it matures. Restrictions tells me that the breeders are not confident of the quality they are breeding and personally wouldn't purchase from those breeders.

[t-time]

I think some breeders get too carried away with their own perceived importance really

:D Not necessary

Restrictions tells me that the breeders are not confident of the quality they are breeding

very rude

Mysticview has similar ideals to mine when it comes to the sale of a puppy

Once you have made the decision to sell to a particular person, the puppy is paid for and gone to their new home, you can only hope that as a dedicated breeder, you've done your best and provided the new owners with as much info and offers of support as you can. The rest is up to your puppy buyer and here's hoping your instincts were right and you chose a good one!

When I purchase a quality bred puppy, I want it on main register with no restrictions.

Why?

a well bred puppy may turn out very good and very breed worthy and shouldn't be restricted with desexing clauses or limited registers as you never know until it matures.

My Pet puppies are never sold on Main Register - always Limited with a desexing clause - and if I've made a mistake about the show potential of a particular puppy then too bad for me.

[Shaar]

I think some breeders get too carried away with their own perceived importance really :D When I purchase a quality bred puppy, I want it on main register with no restrictions. Unless a puppy has obvious faults, my 3 year old is on limited register due to a coat fault in the breed, fair enough, but a well bred puppy may turn out very good and very breed worthy and shouldn't be restricted with desexing clauses or limited registers as you never know until it matures. Restrictions tells me that the breeders are not confident of the quality they are breeding and personally wouldn't purchase from those breeders.

I'm with t-time on this one (for the most part)

I just purchased a puppy with restrictions. The dog is not at public stud and the breeder will most likely want him back to stud a litter. I have no problem with this as the bloodlines are sought after and the breeder is just covering her backside in case I do the wrong thing (which I wouldn't anyway but you never know with some people)

Quality bred doesn't necessarily mean breeding quality. Of coarse every breeder would like every single puppy in their litter to be show quality but the reality is that it doesn't happen... you will get a couple of pet quality dogs in the litter. Why should these dogs not be desexed and on limited register just because their breeding is 'quality'?

If you are after a pet then going with a good breeder is your best bet for health reasons, but does conformation and main register really matter when you just want a nice addition to the family?

In regards to zug zugs post I think those are some pretty hefty requirements.

I believe (and i state now, this is my opinion only)

- it needs to be desexed

Agree completely

- it cannot be desexed until it is an adult and the breeder wants the option to take it back if it is of show quality (if not, then you can desex it and keep it)

Uhhhh..... Not unless you are LEASING the dog, if you are buying it then certainly not.

- it needs to be regularly vaccinated

Of course, although I believe after 1 year of age vacc only need to be done every 3 years.

- it is not allowed to be vaccinated for anything ever

Ever? Or not after 1 year as mentioned above? If they are never vaccinated for anything EVER, then that is irresponsible.

- it needs to go to the breeder's vet, not yours

Too bad if you live interstate. Although I can understand where they are coming from.. some people prefer some vets over others... If I sold pups I would RECOMMEND a certain vet, but wouldn't force.

- it can never be taken to any vet but needs to be taken back to the breeder herself if anything is ever wrong with it

The breeder should be INFORMED of any problems, but I agree... vet first.

- it needs to be fed on a raw diet only

If the dog is yours then that's not up to them. Raw diets are good, but you should be able to make that choice yourself.

- it needs to go to a groomer of the breeder's choice

Again, same with the vets, people have preferences for certain groomers, but I would only recommend, not force.

- no kids

Under the age of 3 I tend to agree. I know that won't go down well, but in reality, all it takes is a 2 year old to pull the dogs tail and it's bye-bye child... the older the kid, the more you can teach them how to behave around dogs.

And yet another disclaimer... these are my OPINIONS only (I have already been in trouble a few times for having an opinion so please don't eat me)

[Christina]

Absolutely ridiculous, it would hardly be your own dog.

The desexing yes, the rest is your choice, a breeder can only recommend & suggest diet etc.

Re the vaccs I agree for some yearly is not needed but living in the metro area, especially in Adelaide, outbreaks of parvo are not uncommon so living there I would vaccinate very year.

I request politely for mine that they are never advertised as a free give away or placed in a pound or shelter if at any time in their life the owner is unable to care for them, to please return to me.

I also give a 12 month genetic health guarantee & ask if there is anything at all that worries or concerns them to call me for advice or go to their vet & let me know asap, when puppies go to their new homes.

Return of the dog re show etc is really a lease thing. Very off putting. No wonder some go to the pet shop.

Try elsewhere.