Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[stormie]

Other breeders have used my males at stud a few times over the years for various traits they wanted which is fine. It's about breed improvement to me not engaging in politics about which breeders can have access to what lines, I have no interest in those arguments at all.

That is how you end up p!ssing off a lot of breeders.

Yes, of course we all want to better the breed, but there is a right and wrong way to go about it. I personally wouldn't do that unless the breeder (lets call them Joe) had given me permission to do so. If I ever wanted another dog off 'Joe' again I doubt they would sell to me because I had done the wrong thing by them.

Then beacuse I had done the wrong thing 'Joe' tells another breeder about me, then they tell another breeder, and another. Very soon I would have a very limited choice in what kennels I can buy from.

Agreed. If I was a breeder, I'd be pretty annoyed to know one of the dogs I had bred and trusted with someone on the main register, was studding him out to other breeders if I hadn't approved. I'm all for breed improvement naturally, but I don't believe that putting all the quality pups on main to be bred by whoever because you'd very soon see the type that you'd put a lot of work in to create, go down the drain.

Why would the type "go down the drain", that's not the standard result by any means. Often the original breeders placing their dogs on limited to "protect their lines", are not overly experienced anyway, neither are the lines their creations. Breeders like to think they know what they are doing, but many a time a breeder has shown me show results on a stud for the reason to sire a litter. When asking what the dog brings to the table in terms of traits........they don't know

Exactly, BB! There are, from what I have seen in my breed, many registered breeders out there who have no idea what they're doing. They have no idea about genetics, conformation and seem to breed because they have a male and a female. These same breeders are ones who see a well bred dog and assume that by breeding it to anything, they'll get nice looking puppies.

But I'm sure you would know, that just because a dog is of really high quality, it doesn't mean it's going to produce the same quality puppies, even if it is bred to a high quality bitch.

So, this is why I think it's a good thing to not just put anything that's good on the main register, and also what I mean about the type 'going down the drain'. Because you'll see lovely, well bred dogs who really fit the standard, end up in the hands of people who have no idea what they're doing and breed it to all their dogs/bitches, regardless of what they look like. The breeder can then tell their puppy buyers how awesome their pups are, because 'look who mum/dad is!' when in actual fact, the type and quality of the puppies will most likely take many steps backwards and the lovely well bred dog would have been a complete waste, because it's not able to contribute its quality to the breed to its full potential.

[Zug Zug]

I think I'm realising from reading this thread how important it will be to find a breeder I can trust and who understands what I am looking for.

This is really daunting everyone - I don't know if you realise how this can all appear to a newbie.

I'm reading some of this and thinking 'here we go - I will be treated with suspicion by every breeder I meet because they think I'm going to breed their dog without their permission'.

And the breeders I contact will probably be thinking 'here we go, these puppy buyers are treating me with suspicion because they think I am selling them a dodgy dog'.

In the end, I am looking for a solid, trusting relationship with a knowledgeable breeder. I will shop around until I find that.

[Black Bronson]

Very nice explanation Shaar............I understand the concept, but in reality, most breeders will have that one special dog that ticked all the boxes and they spend a lifetime trying to duplicate it.............some achieve it, some don't and not every dog bred has the X factor. Having said that, it's not as cut and dry as blending a special sauce and breeding with a dog from those special lines doesn't guarentee the X factor will be produced and found with only part of the ingredient in place. The likelyhood of a special line through ancestor association producing that X factor is highly blown out of all proportion. There is no secrecy as far as what lines and dog's produce what, as it's all written on the pedigree that anyone can access.

Personally, I think it's more a paranoid reflex action to assume that the breeding of a dog using other breeders lines will bring the original kennel undone from a far fetched imagination.

Rubbish.

You show us the figures before you expect us to believe you. What is the statistical likelihood exactly?

Define what you think 'X-factor' means as a dog breeding term.

You are clutching at straws to try to prove a point. All you are proving is that you don't know enough about breeding to understand why some breeders are unwilling to allow just anyone to use their lines.

Much has been proven in racing animals and working animals about breeding practices and what works to produce quality.

You seem to have no inkling about how out of your depth you really are.

What the thread's about is breeders conditions/restrictions when selling a puppy as you all well know. It's also about how far as a puppy buyer are you willing to bend over to the breeders terms. Personally, I couldn't care less about the reasons why a breeder may conduct restrictive sales as all I am interested in is purchasing a particular puppy. If I like the pup and it is not up to breedworthy standards, I would purchase it on limited register as I did with my 3 year old GSD with a faulty coat however, if it is breedworthy and a nice example, I want it on main register unrestricted. If the breeder won't sell me an unrestricted puppy, they can belt it up their jumper and I have no further interest dealing with them, too hard, pain in the backside.

But the point is, you don't have to bend over to any kind of rediculous restrictions because if you look around, there are some very good breeders still around that are willing to provide you with the puppy and the deal you are looking for

Edited May 19, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Black Bronson]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed.

It doesn't matter if someone else breeds.......they can't use the original breeders prefix anyway, nothing to do with the original breeder really???. Not everyone's interpretation of improving the breed is the same either???.

[Black Bronson]

I think I'm realising from reading this thread how important it will be to find a breeder I can trust and who understands what I am looking for.

This is really daunting everyone - I don't know if you realise how this can all appear to a newbie.

I'm reading some of this and thinking 'here we go - I will be treated with suspicion by every breeder I meet because they think I'm going to breed their dog without their permission'.

And the breeders I contact will probably be thinking 'here we go, these puppy buyers are treating me with suspicion because they think I am selling them a dodgy dog'.

In the end, I am looking for a solid, trusting relationship with a knowledgeable breeder. I will shop around until I find that.

Absolutely shop around!!!, you will notice a huge difference when you meet the breeder who is on the same page as you, they are around and worth their weight in gold

[stormie]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed.

It doesn't matter if someone else breeds.......they can't use the original breeders prefix anyway, nothing to do with the original breeder really???. Not everyone's interpretation of improving the breed is the same either???.

But it does when a breeder is producing terrible quality pups. For example.. 'BlackDog Danes' breed beautiful quality black danes. They are a very well respected kennel and known for quite possibly having the best blacks in Australia. Then there's 'JohnSmith Danes' who are quite new and have no idea what they are doing with breeding, with little knowledge of the breed standard etc. They manage to get a dog who is of 'BlackDog' lines that's in the main register. So JohnSmith breed their BlackDog male to a female they had. The resulting puppies are pretty bad examples of the breed. When JohnSmith Danes advertise their puppies, they title the ad with 'Quality puppies - BlackDog lines'. So people see these puppies who really aren't they great and think because they are of BlackDog lines, this must be a similar quality to BlackDog danes and what BlackDog danes produce. But in actual fact, it's a far cry from what BlackDog Danes produce, because they, unlike JohnSmith, actually know what they're doing.

So, no, JohnSmith didn't breed under the BlackDog prefix, but they have essentially used their name to promote their poorly conformed Danes who are terrible examples of the breed, which can reflect poorly on the BlackDog lines.

[Shaar]

Bravo stormie

[Black Bronson]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed.

It doesn't matter if someone else breeds.......they can't use the original breeders prefix anyway, nothing to do with the original breeder really???. Not everyone's interpretation of improving the breed is the same either???.

But it does when a breeder is producing terrible quality pups. For example.. 'BlackDog Danes' breed beautiful quality black danes. They are a very well respected kennel and known for quite possibly having the best blacks in Australia. Then there's 'JohnSmith Danes' who are quite new and have no idea what they are doing with breeding, with little knowledge of the breed standard etc. They manage to get a dog who is of 'BlackDog' lines that's in the main register. So JohnSmith breed their BlackDog male to a female they had. The resulting puppies are pretty bad examples of the breed. When JohnSmith Danes advertise their puppies, they title the ad with 'Quality puppies - BlackDog lines'. So people see these puppies who really aren't they great and think because they are of BlackDog lines, this must be a similar quality to BlackDog danes and what BlackDog danes produce. But in actual fact, it's a far cry from what BlackDog Danes produce, because they, unlike JohnSmith, actually know what they're doing.

So, no, JohnSmith didn't breed under the BlackDog prefix, but they have essentially used their name to promote their poorly conformed Danes who are terrible examples of the breed, which can reflect poorly on the BlackDog lines.

Don't get me wrong Stormie, I fully understand where you are coming from in your example, but it happens now in my breed all the time and it's all done ligitimately with no one treading on others toes. You have a really good German imported stud with the right bitch will produce some show winning progeny. Many breeders may use this stud and breed him with the bitch they have and not always for the right reasons, but none the less, the sire of the litter is this great dog and the breeders are not shy advertising this either which is fair enough. Down the track there is a show and 1st place goes to a son of this great import. But at the same show, the great import also sires 18th, 32nd and 40th which was last.

So the great import has sired, 1st, 18th, 32nd, and last position (40th) in the show. Do we determine from those results, that the great import is not really a good dog as the other progeny on the day was only average, or do we compare the bitch lines from the not so good examples and the show winner??? I don't see that becuase several breeders with inferior bitch lines didn't fill all the top spots in the show, reflects on the great import's ability to reproduce or detracts anything from the quality of that stud, what do you think

[Gayle.]

Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with.

This is similar to what a friend of mine was advised with selling pedigree kittens. She sold one as show quality and the kitten developed a minor fault (which didn't prevent it from winning some major awards) and the owners sued the breeder for not selling them a "show quality" kitten. Mind you, they'd showed it every weekend they'd owned it.

The general consensus, and the outcome of the court case, was that my friend should charge a higher price for show prospects and if they turned out to not be show quality, she could refund the difference between show and pet price. So she now charges a few hundred extra if the kitten is to be shown, so that there is a definite difference (and the perception of better quality is there even if it's just a perception.)

[stormie]

I think that by having that dog available at stud to so many breeders, has potentially been detrimental to the breed because the gene pool has been reduced, because he's being used by so many breeders who want to make another him! It's a whole other topic really, but it has been proven apparently, that with semen being accessible all round the world now, gene pools have been reduced because people see an awesome dog overseas, and they all start using his semen trying to recreate his awesomeness.

A stud, IMO, is really only as good as the bitch he's bred to and the breeder who bred them.

[Greytmate]

So the great import has sired, 1st, 18th, 32nd, and last position (40th) in the show. Do we determine from those results, that the great import is not really a good dog as the other progeny on the day was only average, or do we compare the bitch lines from the not so good examples and the show winner??? I don't see that becuase several breeders with inferior bitch lines didn't fill all the top spots in the show, reflects on the great import's ability to reproduce or detracts anything from the quality of that stud, what do you think

It depends on why you have imported the stud. Just because the progeny doesn't always win doesn't make the bitch line inferior. Importers are often looking at second generation and beyond, and the quality of what the daughter of the import produces when bred back to the line.

Do you show dogs? Do they give you a ribbon for last in show?

History is what determines great imports. Not the sales figures of the import's pups.

[Black Bronson]

I think that by having that dog available at stud to so many breeders, has potentially been detrimental to the breed because the gene pool has been reduced, because he's being used by so many breeders who want to make another him! It's a whole other topic really, but it has been proven apparently, that with semen being accessible all round the world now, gene pools have been reduced because people see an awesome dog overseas, and they all start using his semen trying to recreate his awesomeness.

A stud, IMO, is really only as good as the bitch he's bred to and the breeder who bred them.

Correct So why do so many breeders believe that the latest show winner is the best stud for their bitch???.

[Wazzat Xolo]

So the great import has sired, 1st, 18th, 32nd, and last position (40th) in the show. Do we determine from those results, that the great import is not really a good dog as the other progeny on the day was only average, or do we compare the bitch lines from the not so good examples and the show winner??? I don't see that becuase several breeders with inferior bitch lines didn't fill all the top spots in the show, reflects on the great import's ability to reproduce or detracts anything from the quality of that stud, what do you think

It depends on why you have imported the stud. Just because the progeny doesn't always win doesn't make the bitch line inferior. Importers are often looking at second generation and beyond, and the quality of what the daughter of the import produces when bred back to the line.

Do you show dogs? Do they give you a ribbon for last in show?

History is what determines great imports. Not the sales figures of the import's pups.

How very true HISTORY is behind all great dogs and breeders blood sweat and tears!

\

I am hopeful mine will produce quality puppies but I am well aware of lines I need to import with the limited gene pools avaialble.

I guess every breed road is generally the same but depending on the availlability of gene pools can be an influencing factor..