Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[Steve]

The purpose of a registered pedigree is proof of parentage and if you dont want to breed or show why would you want the pedigree on the main register?

If you come to me and you tell me you want a pet pup I select them differently to how I select a main register pup. I consider genetic issues which may have shown or that Im aware may be a potential problem in breeding, I consider whelping issues and assess the pup for all manner of things and not just whether or not its the best I can breed in line with the standard.

If you want a pup which you may want to show and or breed from me you get it without restriction but its the best I can put on the ground and chosen differently. I wont buy a pup unless its main registered and it has no restriction on it but I know when Im buying it and so does the breeder that I'm probably going to use it for breeding assuming when I get to wanting to do that it fits in with what Im after for my breeding program.

If I put a pup out with limited registration it hasnt been assessed as to its impact on future generations and its only been assessed as to its expected life as a pet and not a breeding dog. I expect that before someone uses dogs Ive bred for breeding they know how that may impact on the breed and unless I tell them what I know of the ancestor's health and how that may impact they cant have that info.

[Black Bronson]

The purpose of a registered pedigree is proof of parentage and if you dont want to breed or show why would you want the pedigree on the main register?

If you come to me and you tell me you want a pet pup I select them differently to how I select a main register pup. I consider genetic issues which may have shown or that Im aware may be a potential problem in breeding, I consider whelping issues and assess the pup for all manner of things and not just whether or not its the best I can breed in line with the standard.

If you want a pup which you may want to show and or breed from me you get it without restriction but its the best I can put on the ground and chosen differently. I wont buy a pup unless its main registered and it has no restriction on it but I know when Im buying it and so does the breeder that I'm probably going to use it for breeding assuming when I get to wanting to do that it fits in with what Im after for my breeding program.

If I put a pup out with limited registration it hasnt been assessed as to its impact on future generations and its only been assessed as to its expected life as a pet and not a breeding dog. I expect that before someone uses dogs Ive bred for breeding they know how that may impact on the breed and unless I tell them what I know of the ancestor's health and how that may impact they cant have that info.

Thank you Steve, at last an educated perspective of the situation Your perspective is EXACTLY the perspectives I would expect from an ethical and reputable breeder, excellent post

[Gayle.]

If you are buying it as a pet that means it isn't being bought for showing or for breeding.

Not entirely. Dusty was bought as a pet, but I show her and many other people are in the same position as me. They have no intention of breeding, but the family pooch is a goodie and so becomes the introduction to the world of dog shows.

She was not bought as a show dog, she was bought as a pet however the breeder mentioned she was good enough for the show ring and so I gave it a go.

[kezziahgsd]

"Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???"

I think you will find that breeders do not discriminate between LR & MR puppies when they are being raised. ALL are raised in exactly the same manner. Just because there may be a long coat (applicable to my breed) that will obviously go on the LR, it is tended exactly the same way as the potential MR puppies, so why should it be cheaper? It is still are purebred puppy of known lineage, raised with care and should demand the same price as the MR puppies.

[Steve]

If you are buying it as a pet that means it isn't being bought for showing or for breeding.

Not entirely. Dusty was bought as a pet, but I show her and many other people are in the same position as me. They have no intention of breeding, but the family pooch is a goodie and so becomes the introduction to the world of dog shows.

She was not bought as a show dog, she was bought as a pet however the breeder mentioned she was good enough for the show ring and so I gave it a go.

Yes this is true but either the dog is graded as good enough for showing and or breeding at the time of sale - goes on main register so the owner can decide to show or breed or the breeder upgrades to main when the buyer comes back if the dog is good enough and if there are no known nasties inthe lines.This is different I think to what is being discussed here.

When I send a pup home on limited register the buyer knows what that means and I tell them why. If a pup goes out with limited register and there is a reason why I think it shouldnt be used for breeding I tell them so at the time. - Mum has had a C section etc and why its not in the dog's or their best interest to breed with it. If the opposite applies and I may be O.K. about an upgrade I tell them this too as I want them to come back to me and get a head start with my support rather than fall in love with it and decide its good enough to breed etc and muck it up.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

"Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???"

I think you will find that breeders do not discriminate between LR & MR puppies when they are being raised. ALL are raised in exactly the same manner. Just because there may be a long coat (applicable to my breed) that will obviously go on the LR, it is tended exactly the same way as the potential MR puppies, so why should it be cheaper? It is still are purebred puppy of known lineage, raised with care and should demand the same price as the MR puppies.

My main register pups go out at a higher price than my limited register ones. I work like mad to build relationships with my puppy buyers and the ones who want to show or breed get a hell of a lot more of me and my resources than the limited register people. They also get as close to perfect that I can breed. Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with.

[Greytmate]

Very nice explanation Shaar............I understand the concept, but in reality, most breeders will have that one special dog that ticked all the boxes and they spend a lifetime trying to duplicate it.............some achieve it, some don't and not every dog bred has the X factor. Having said that, it's not as cut and dry as blending a special sauce and breeding with a dog from those special lines doesn't guarentee the X factor will be produced and found with only part of the ingredient in place. The likelyhood of a special line through ancestor association producing that X factor is highly blown out of all proportion. There is no secrecy as far as what lines and dog's produce what, as it's all written on the pedigree that anyone can access.

Personally, I think it's more a paranoid reflex action to assume that the breeding of a dog using other breeders lines will bring the original kennel undone from a far fetched imagination.

Rubbish.

You show us the figures before you expect us to believe you. What is the statistical likelihood exactly?

Define what you think 'X-factor' means as a dog breeding term.

You are clutching at straws to try to prove a point. All you are proving is that you don't know enough about breeding to understand why some breeders are unwilling to allow just anyone to use their lines.

Much has been proven in racing animals and working animals about breeding practices and what works to produce quality.

You seem to have no inkling about how out of your depth you really are.

[Shaar]

Greytmate - The X factor comment came into play because of my post sorry...

With my burger shop analogy, I was saying the shop "X-Factor" was it's "Special Sauce" in the burger which in terms of dog breeding I meant as the specific breeders "Breed Type".

You can get 2 breeders whos dogs look different from each other, but neither of them is wrong, they just have different breed type.

I know some breeders are terribly guarded with their lines, but really, why shouldn't they be?

They have put all the hard work in and don't want it all given away to lesser quality dogs... and when you sell on a dog on mains with no restrictions at all, you have to have a lot of faith in the buyer to be putting that dog to other dogs of equal or better quality.

With my boy, he is not for public stud. That doesn't mean he can never be bred from, just that the breeder has to approve any matings before they are done so she can ensure her lines are being put to good use.

[Greytmate]

X-Factor is a breeding term referring to the damline.

[Shaar]

Yes, probably shouldn't have used that term looking back now, lets just change it to what gives them their "individuality"

[SparkyTansy]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

I do not believe that there are many breeders out there who would not explain the difference between main and limited, if it cameup... but if they from the start insisted that all they want is a companion dog, why on earth would anyone happily put it on the main register, particularly if at the time of assessment, it is not up to "mains" registration? the way i see it, it is almost an official requirement that we assess and place puppies on the specific registers... if I was to place all puppies from a litter on main registration, but 8/10 of them went to "pet" homes, and then they went ahead and bred with them, we are inadvertantly breeding dogs that are not for the betterment of the breed.

[Wazzat Xolo]

X-Factor is a breeding term referring to the damline.

Oh I have seen it used on the "bogan" show called

X Factor where people of varied talents attempt to wow judges

I think Shaar was using it as a generic term in this instance ( much as the TV show)

[Shaar]

Exactly Wazzat

[Greytmate]

I didn't realise you were using the bogan definition of X, and not the breeding term.

I don't agree with it as an excuse for indiscriminate breeding though, Shaar.

"Yeah, he's got the X factor, and I've got his main reg papers. X-treme, let's pimp him to the maxx."

Good breeding involves a proper analysis of the pedigree taking ancestry into careful consideration. Not just putting good dogs to other good dogs and hoping for more good dogs.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I didn't realise you were using the bogan definition of X, and not the breeding term.

I don't agree with it as an excuse for indiscriminate breeding though, Shaar.

"Yeah, he's got the X factor, and I've got his main reg papers. X-treme, let's pimp him to the maxx."

Good breeding involves a proper analysis of the pedigree taking ancestry into careful consideration. Not just putting good dogs to other good dogs and hoping for more good dogs.

No I am sure it wast used in that way, just wanted to get a point across! lol

[Black Bronson]

If you are buying it as a pet that means it isn't being bought for showing or for breeding.

Not entirely. Dusty was bought as a pet, but I show her and many other people are in the same position as me. They have no intention of breeding, but the family pooch is a goodie and so becomes the introduction to the world of dog shows.

She was not bought as a show dog, she was bought as a pet however the breeder mentioned she was good enough for the show ring and so I gave it a go.

Yes GayleK, that happens often and also causes some nasty arguments if the breeder won't raise the dog to main register if someone has a good dog and becomes interested in showing. The dog may not be a champion, but a good dog that is showable is all that is needed to become involved and enjoy another activity with your dog. The ANKC definition of main register: "Provides full rights of owning a pedigree dog"

[Black Bronson]

"Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???"

I think you will find that breeders do not discriminate between LR & MR puppies when they are being raised. ALL are raised in exactly the same manner. Just because there may be a long coat (applicable to my breed) that will obviously go on the LR, it is tended exactly the same way as the potential MR puppies, so why should it be cheaper? It is still are purebred puppy of known lineage, raised with care and should demand the same price as the MR puppies.

My main register pups go out at a higher price than my limited register ones. I work like mad to build relationships with my puppy buyers and the ones who want to show or breed get a hell of a lot more of me and my resources than the limited register people. They also get as close to perfect that I can breed. Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with.

Perfect Steve What Steve is explaining is the original "old school" breeding practices we would all expect from a good breeder. The more modern trends of selling faulty dogs for the same price and placing ego driven restrictions upon buyers rights of owning a good breedworthy dog is a trend I can't come to terms with easily or agree with. The breeders I have purchased from over the years have "ALL" had perspectives along similar lines as Steve's explained, and fortunately, there are still some "great" beeders like this

[silverdog]

Yes GayleK, that happens often and also causes some nasty arguments if the breeder won't raise the dog to main register if someone has a good dog and becomes interested in showing. The dog may not be a champion, but a good dog that is showable is all that is needed to become involved and enjoy another activity with your dog. The ANKC definition of main register: "Provides full rights of owning a pedigree dog"

Ah.. but with any "right" comes the corresponding "responsibility".

Most reputable breeders that I know are simply wanting to ensure that anyone who purchases one of their pups exercises the the daunting responsibilities (as pointed out by Steve et al) that come with owning a main registered dog, along with the "rights".

[Wazzat Xolo]

"Then a trend developed that unless you were going to show or breed and you passed the breeders eligibility criteria you got an unpapered (limited register) dog for the same price???. Hang on..........unpapered were always cheaper what gives here???"

I think you will find that breeders do not discriminate between LR & MR puppies when they are being raised. ALL are raised in exactly the same manner. Just because there may be a long coat (applicable to my breed) that will obviously go on the LR, it is tended exactly the same way as the potential MR puppies, so why should it be cheaper? It is still are purebred puppy of known lineage, raised with care and should demand the same price as the MR puppies.

My main register pups go out at a higher price than my limited register ones. I work like mad to build relationships with my puppy buyers and the ones who want to show or breed get a hell of a lot more of me and my resources than the limited register people. They also get as close to perfect that I can breed. Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with.

Perfect Steve What Steve is explaining is the original "old school" breeding practices we would all expect from a good breeder. The more modern trends of selling faulty dogs for the same price and placing ego driven restrictions upon buyers rights of owning a good breedworthy dog is a trend I can't come to terms with easily or agree with. The breeders I have purchased from over the years have "ALL" had perspectives along similar lines as Steve's explained, and fortunately, there are still some "great" beeders like this

I am sure you will find EVERY breeder with the MDBA has the same "old school" practices as you call them values.

There are fortunately many out there with these ethics, may I suggest BB you join the MDBA ( if not already a member) they are striving towrads what Steve has mentioned in this thread and many more great things. Not just for breeders, but responsible owners too.

[Shaar]

I didn't realise you were using the bogan definition of X, and not the breeding term.

I don't agree with it as an excuse for indiscriminate breeding though, Shaar.

"Yeah, he's got the X factor, and I've got his main reg papers. X-treme, let's pimp him to the maxx."

Good breeding involves a proper analysis of the pedigree taking ancestry into careful consideration. Not just putting good dogs to other good dogs and hoping for more good dogs.

Uhhhhh, I think you got my point backwards there greyt

I agree with you, the whole burger shop, x factor point I was making was that you shouldn't go behind a breeders back and pimp out the dog to everyone