Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[Black Bronson]

If a puppy buyer purchases for a pet with no interest in "opportunities" there is no threat selling on main anyway. It would make no difference to the breeder either way in those circumstances and could even be desexed.

And what about the situation where you have perfectly valid reasons for not wanting your dog (and pedigree) to fall into the hands of another person? Or woe betide, a puppy farmer or oodle breeder? There are many documented cases where people have sold a dog in good faith not knowing that the person to whom they are selling is an agent for an exporter or an undesirable purchaser. Puppies sold on Main Register are a lot more marketable to the unscrupulous and any breeder selling puppies on Main Register can surely have no peace of mind that their puppies are in the right hands.

The only true peace of mind that a breeder can really have is not selling their puppies and keeping them. Is a puppy farmer worse than someone who ends up not caring for the dog properly when it grow up..........all these scenarios are bad and are part and parcel of selling puppies. Yes, it's a possibility, but in reality what percentage of pure breed buyers in the market for a puppy specifically to use for mis-adventure???. Perhaps a more efficient screening process of potential buyers is a better proposition. If a puppy is released entire regardless of registration status, doesn't stop it being bred if puppy farming is the motive, but limited registration isn't the fix for all potential problems that could surface.

[Wazzat Xolo]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

[Black Bronson]

It's exactly the same as the old unpapered dog in reality. The only difference is that limited register makes it more officially unusable, but the same restrictions apply

Not true. The registration has no bearing on a dog's usability or even its suitability as a pet. Which is the purpose that most people buy dogs for.

Registration does have bearing on a dog's usability regarding showing and breeding.

[ellz]

It's exactly the same as the old unpapered dog in reality. The only difference is that limited register makes it more officially unusable, but the same restrictions apply

Not true. The registration has no bearing on a dog's usability or even its suitability as a pet. Which is the purpose that most people buy dogs for.

Registration does have bearing on a dog's usability regarding showing and breeding.

I'm sorry, I just can't take any more of this.

Good luck everybody....... :D

[Black Bronson]

This thread is just going around in circles. I don't agree with 'over the top' conditions being placed on the sale of a puppy, but then everyone will have a different idea of where the line is drawn between 'over the top' and 'reasonable'. At the end of the day, if you don't agree with the conditions - you just have to go looking elsewhere to get what you are after.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog

Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life.

You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home

I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on.

YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited.

These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder.

By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC.

The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder.

Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???.

I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes.

Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals.

I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to.

Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work.

Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???.

None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???.

Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition

:D the same old arguement pops up time and again. The breeder is afraid of competition and being beaten by their own if they part with them and in the majority of cases it couldn't be further from the truth.

Then there is no valid reason to place breedworthy examples on limited register

[Greytmate]

It's exactly the same as the old unpapered dog in reality. The only difference is that limited register makes it more officially unusable, but the same restrictions apply

Not true. The registration has no bearing on a dog's usability or even its suitability as a pet. Which is the purpose that most people buy dogs for.

Registration does have bearing on a dog's usability regarding showing and breeding.

If you are buying it as a pet that means it isn't being bought for showing or for breeding.

[Shaar]

Black Bronson - perhaps you would understand my (and others) point of view if it were explained differently.

Ok... say you own a take-away store.

There is another take-away store right across the street from you.

Both you and the other store make fantastic burgers... but you both use different recipes for the sauce, so half the people like your burgers, and half like the other stores.

Now it has taken you YEARS of hard work to get your sauce just "perfect" You want to keep your sauce recipe a secret as it is your 'marketing edge'

Now... one day you sell a burger to a customer and they run that burger straight over to the other shop.

They give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper analyzes the sauce and replicates it, with virtually no effort on their part at all.

They now serve both types of sauce and take your customers.

Now the basics of the burger are the same, but it's that little X factor, the 'sauce' that makes them so different.

With different kennels, the dogs are the "great burger" but every breeder adds their own special 'sauce' to the breed.

As a shop keeper who has worked so hard on your recipe... wouldn't you be mad that someone 'stole' it right out from under you?

(sorry, burger shop was the best analogy I could come up with )

[OSoSwift]

It's exactly the same as the old unpapered dog in reality. The only difference is that limited register makes it more officially unusable, but the same restrictions apply

Not true. The registration has no bearing on a dog's usability or even its suitability as a pet. Which is the purpose that most people buy dogs for.

Registration does have bearing on a dog's usability regarding showing and breeding.

I'm sorry, I just can't take any more of this.

Good luck everybody....... :D

I am afraid I have to agree..........

If you buy a dog as a pet only then you do not need the papaers at all do you, however that does not mean that the dog is a shocking example of it's breed. Pet dogs are put on the limited register because really they don't need them on main as they do not want to breed or show. If my dog was to have puppies, apart form the one I kept for myself, and maybe one for my breed mentor, the others would be going to pet homes. So all the puppies would go on limited register. They do not need main as they do not wish to show or breed.

If I did sell a dog on main and it was used as a stud to all and sundry I wouldn't be very happy. I would hope however that I have established a good relationship with my puppy owners. Everything would be out and discussed and in the open. If they were not in agreence then they could go elsewhere.

There are many BYB Whippets in my neck of the woods and I have been approached to use my male at stud. The answer was no. Therefore if I was selling puppies they would be on limited register and a desexing agreement as I would not want my babies used over BYB Whippets, then passed off as - the parents/parent has papers and is oh so great.

I am afraid that you are not open to trying to understand what people are saying. That is fine, your opinion, but I will have to agree to disagree.

[Black Bronson]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

The point is Whippets, not "all" breeders do what you are promoting as acceptable, in fact many very established experienced breeders hate this concept of buyer restriction as much as I do. This main/limited register discussion is not by any means the standard practice of all breeders, so in the market of buying a puppy, it pays to look around and see who is buyer restrictive and who isn't. To claim that the better breeders use restrictive measures is nonesense, in fact as I have mentioned previously in my breed recently, the breeders who did restrict, didn't have the proven lines that the non restrictive breeders offered anyway.........so what's the point of buying from them to get an experimental breeding with restrictions over a solid line without

[mr.mister]

crikey.

Okay, a pup is not 'ruined' by being placed on LR. It CAN be upgraded to MR. I repeat. It is possible to upgrade to MR. All is not lost.

However, this is at the complete discretion of the breeder, and a responsible breeder will only consider upgrading if the pup has grown up to be show worthy and correct to the standard. If a breeder refuses, they are completely within their rights and normally have a completely valid reason. Breeders are responsible for the lives they bring into this world and are very serious about it.

For crying. out. loud.

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson - perhaps you would understand my (and others) point of view if it were explained differently.

Ok... say you own a take-away store.

There is another take-away store right across the street from you.

Both you and the other store make fantastic burgers... but you both use different recipes for the sauce, so half the people like your burgers, and half like the other stores.

Now it has taken you YEARS of hard work to get your sauce just "perfect" You want to keep your sauce recipe a secret as it is your 'marketing edge'

Now... one day you sell a burger to a customer and they run that burger straight over to the other shop.

They give it to the shop keeper and the shop keeper analyzes the sauce and replicates it, with virtually no effort on their part at all.

They now serve both types of sauce and take your customers.

Now the basics of the burger are the same, but it's that little X factor, the 'sauce' that makes them so different.

With different kennels, the dogs are the "great burger" but every breeder adds their own special 'sauce' to the breed.

As a shop keeper who has worked so hard on your recipe... wouldn't you be mad that someone 'stole' it right out from under you?

(sorry, burger shop was the best analogy I could come up with )

Very nice explanation Shaar............I understand the concept, but in reality, most breeders will have that one special dog that ticked all the boxes and they spend a lifetime trying to duplicate it.............some achieve it, some don't and not every dog bred has the X factor. Having said that, it's not as cut and dry as blending a special sauce and breeding with a dog from those special lines doesn't guarentee the X factor will be produced and found with only part of the ingredient in place. The likelyhood of a special line through ancestor association producing that X factor is highly blown out of all proportion. There is no secrecy as far as what lines and dog's produce what, as it's all written on the pedigree that anyone can access.

Personally, I think it's more a paranoid reflex action to assume that the breeding of a dog using other breeders lines will bring the original kennel undone from a far fetched imagination.

[Wazzat Xolo]

This thread is just going around in circles. I don't agree with 'over the top' conditions being placed on the sale of a puppy, but then everyone will have a different idea of where the line is drawn between 'over the top' and 'reasonable'. At the end of the day, if you don't agree with the conditions - you just have to go looking elsewhere to get what you are after.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog

Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life.

You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home

I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on.

YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited.

These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder.

By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC.

The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder.

Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???.

I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes.

Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals.

I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to.

Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work.

Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???.

None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???.

Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition ;)

the same old arguement pops up time and again. The breeder is afraid of competition and being beaten by their own if they part with them and in the majority of cases it couldn't be further from the truth.

Then there is no valid reason to place breedworthy examples on limited register

YES there is and I have ONE EXAMPLE. I breed Xoloitzcuintle ( in case YOU do not know there are only an estmated 4000 dogs world wide) this breed has fought back from near extinction with the blood, sweat and tears of very dedicated breeders who care very much about the very limited lines and the very precarious position the breed has been in and will continue to be in. In Australia I DO NOT want every dog I breed to be bred from, because this itself will add to the gene pool limits. I doubt people will import new sires as this is very costly, and I dont want my dogs to become as they have in the USA ( a DD breed by people who want a quick $$) I will only breed with the very best ( not just breedworthy) and in all probability not all coateds ( who are VERY breedworthy) this is my chpoice as a breeder and as I have much more experience with this breed than anyone else here, that is a VALID reason that has come from many great breeders with far more years of experience than all of us here !!

I cant give you BB a simpler example so I hope this makes sense for this particular` breed. Other breeds will have their reasns based on many factors, this is something you seem to be missing in each post!

[Black Bronson]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

[Wazzat Xolo]

yep it is so typical of people outside the breeding game to make assumptions based on their own perceptions.

BB once you have been breeding dogs for decades then you will understand why breeders do what they do. Going by all your posts I'll make an educated guess and say that you are quite inexperienced. Until you have gone through the blood sweat and tears of breeding dogs, instead of being on the outside and looking in, you will have no idea.

well said Whippets, Black Bronson YOU can learn a lot from the experienced breeders on here, that are here to help and advise newbies and people that have NO idea, we ALL never stop learning in the Dog Game it is only those that choose to absorb that become truly respected.

Newbies need to be advised with the truth about main and limited register as I mentioned before, many newbie purebreed owners think that "ALL" pet puppies have to be on limited register like it's an ANKC standard requirement because that's how some breeders put it across.........pets go on limited. But what they don't explain properly is that pets from their kennel go on limited because they have chosen to do so, not because of any official requirement.

So the newbie purebreed owner has just accepted the breeders terms after being given a conjob.............that's what I am talking about Some breeders forget to even mention the limited register and the newbie owner thinks that the papers coming in the post are the real deal which isn't fair is it???.

JESUS give me strength Do you comprehend anything people say here BB. I can see what you say BUT each and every person who purchases a puppy whatever register SHOULD research about limited and main register for themselves, and I am sure 99% of breeders do tell the truth about limited and main register as its in the code of ethics we all abide by to not mislead people. I am not a conjob artist and I resent the fact you say people maybe, this is YOUR experience and I dont appreciate being lumped in with your experiences! Truth or fiction as they may be!

Ellz wait for me !

[Black Bronson]

This thread is just going around in circles. I don't agree with 'over the top' conditions being placed on the sale of a puppy, but then everyone will have a different idea of where the line is drawn between 'over the top' and 'reasonable'. At the end of the day, if you don't agree with the conditions - you just have to go looking elsewhere to get what you are after.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog

Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life.

You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home

I'm sorry but IMO that's terrible advice, it is far from being over the top just to have a dog on limited register. Most breeders FULLY explain what the registry means so there is no ripping off, or over the top demands going on.

YES it is YOUR choice if you want to breed or show, which is why you should buy a dog papered accordingly. If you want to show, buy on main register, if you just want a pet then go with limited.

These days a dog that comes with no papers at all is from a less than reputable breeder.

By providing limited register papers at least you know there is a good chance that breeder is a good one and registered with the ANKC.

The breeder isn't "challenging your integrity" they are covering their own @rse because I can tell you now, I can't count on my fingers and toes the amount of people who have lied to and screwed over their dogs breeder.

Shaar, I am referring to breeders who won't sell on main at all for the opportunity to buy an appropriately papered dog???.

I'm one of those breeders who put those going to pet homes on the limit register ( regardless of the show potential ) and sells/givesaway/co-own those on the main register to known and approved show homes.

Tell me why it is, that I should allow every Tom Dick and Harry that wants a main register dog, to have one ? My dogs come from some of the most successfull lines and kennels in the country, their immediate pedigrees contain multi BIS and BISS winners, the dogs themselves have their titles, their close relatives have proven time and again their worth in the ring and as breeding animals.

I don't have the right to take that and spread it around the countryside willy nilly , nor do I want to.

Those that have come before me, have worked bloody hard to put those dogs on the ground and I respect that. When they handed me the dogs, they made me a custodian of their lines and hard work.

Tom, Dick & Harry can't breed under your prefix ..........so what's it matter if their progeny has one of your dogs involved???. If the progeny is no good using your male and an inadequate bitch is not your fault. But is it more the use of your male with a better bitch and Tom, Dick or Harry's kennel earns some wins over yours that you are worried about???.

None the less, if T,D or H are producing better dogs than you..........that's good for the breed isn't it???.

Sell them on main, throw your hat in the ring like a true competitor............any one can keep winning with a shop closed to competition ;)

the same old arguement pops up time and again. The breeder is afraid of competition and being beaten by their own if they part with them and in the majority of cases it couldn't be further from the truth.

Then there is no valid reason to place breedworthy examples on limited register

YES there is and I have ONE EXAMPLE. I breed Xoloitzcuintle ( in case YOU do not know there are only an estmated 4000 dogs world wide) this breed has fought back from near extinction with the blood, sweat and tears of very dedicated breeders who care very much about the very limited lines and the very precarious position the breed has been in and will continue to be in. In Australia I DO NOT want every dog I breed to be bred from, because this itself will add to the gene pool limits. I doubt people will import new sires as this is very costly, and I dont want my dogs to become as they have in the USA ( a DD breed by people who want a quick $$) I will only breed with the very best ( not just breedworthy) and in all probability not all coateds ( who are VERY breedworthy) this is my chpoice as a breeder and as I have much more experience with this breed than anyone else here, that is a VALID reason that has come from many great breeders with far more years of experience than all of us here !!

I cant give you BB a simpler example so I hope this makes sense for this particular` breed. Other breeds will have their reasns based on many factors, this is something you seem to be missing in each post!

That's understandable with a rare breed and I would guess that demand far outweighs supply which is a unique situation compared with the common breeds that may have 50 odd litters available around Australia at any one time.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Any breeder would have the same thoughts for wanting the very best for their chosen breed, whether rare breed or not so rare breed ( hate the term common) I am sure a Regular breed breeder feels the same way about their dogs and limited/ main register that I do. Its not the money side for breeders its the pride of a job well done and a nice end product, it only takes 1 person to mess up many years work, which is why I can see breeders have the contracts and certain requiremenst for some dogs on limited register and some dogs on Main register. With the ability to transfer from one to another this can be done.

Anyway this little duck needs her sleep for tomz!

[whippets]

.......and then there are some thickheads that no matter what you tell them it does not sink in.

I'm right behind Ellz.

I'll leave BB in this thread to continue chasing his/her tail.

Bye.

[Black Bronson]

.......and then there are some thickheads that no matter what you tell them it does not sink in.

I'm right behind Ellz.

I'll leave BB in this thread to continue chasing his/her tail.

Bye.

I have two main registered unrestricted dogs by chasing the right deals which are out there if anyone wants to shop around

[carlibud]

:hitself: ;) :cheer:

I was beginning to think it was just me

Some of those conditions are really far fetched from the OP.

Just curious BB does your breeder know that your boy is used at stud??

Are you registered with the Vic KC or what ever its called??

If you are registered well thats a big step

But if not, I would of thought that you would of had to of been, for your dog to be used by a Reg breeder or were they not registered??

Edited May 18, 2010 by carlibud

[Black Bronson]

:hitself: ;) :cheer:

I was beginning to think it was just me

Some of those conditions are really far fetched from the OP.

Just curious BB does your breeder know that your boy is used at stud??

Are you registered with the Vic KC or what ever its called??

If you are registered well thats a big step

But if not, I would of thought that you would of had to of been, for your dog to be used by a Reg breeder or were they not registered??

None of my present boys have been used at stud, the last time was my old boy in 1995. The puppy maybe down the track if things work out well :p