Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[Gayle.]

Here in lies a major problem that your vet should have been aware of. MDR1 in Collies.

It seems to be a gap in vets knowledge because I've never had a vet even know about ivermectin sensitivity. And it's in collie types as well as collies (Aussie Shepherds are from the collie family).

[Black Bronson]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

If it has a disqualifying fault, it's faulty. A crossbreed can live long healthy life too, but cannot be papered. Not all puppies rated as very promising turn out champions but are still breedworthy and still shown and bred. If it's a good pup, it deserves to be main registered IMO.

I do wish you'd answer my previous post.

Okay, so why? Why does it deserve to be main registered, if it is going to a pet home and is not to be used for breeding? Limit registering isn't bulletproof but puts a safety blanket there in case, despite the breeder's better judgement, the dog falls into the wrong hands and is bred. Just because it's a 'good dog' doesn't warrant MR and being bred. God knows we've got enough dogs on earth needing homes so when one chooses for breeding, one needs to choose very carefully. I know it doesn't solve all issues, but I personally can't find the point of putting a pup on main if it is solely intended as a pet not to be bred from.

edit: spelling brainfart.

There are no rules that determine only show/breeding homes get main registration. It's exploitation of a set of circumstances that some breeders out of habit think this is the registration guidelines which it isn't. If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one. Things may change from puppyhood to adult where having a nice dog, someone may want to show it after becomming enthused in the breed???. The breeder won't upgrade the registration to main, it's all over. If you pay the money for a good quality dog, you should get the approriate paperwork. Why close all your options up at 8 weeks old

[Bilbo Baggins]

I'm concerned now. Neither our breeder or our vet mentioned anything about bcs being sensitive to heartworming. we dont use the injection, so is it only this that causes problems? or is it things like tablets and advocate also?

Yes. Be very careful, ivomectin is in a few things.

Dog/s only need to be DNA profiled to aleviate any concerns.

[Black Bronson]

My boy is on the limited register, he has no disqualifying faults and I have had breeders gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed. So why is he on the limited register? Because we knew very little about the breed when we bought him, he was our introduction, and we had no intentions of showing or breeding and the breeder did not want him used indiscriminately.

And so she registered him accordingly and we had him desexed as we'd agreed.

It does not make him a lesser quality dog....he is still highly intelligent, moves like a dream, is wonderful to live with and is the best boy in the world.

The breeder owns the dam, sire and Bensons sister. They still have all the rights to the genetic material.

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines.

Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too

[stormie]

There are no rules that determine only show/breeding homes get main registration. It's exploitation of a set of circumstances that some breeders out of habit think this is the registration guidelines which it isn't. If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one. Things may change from puppyhood to adult where having a nice dog, someone may want to show it after becomming enthused in the breed???. The breeder won't upgrade the registration to main, it's all over. If you pay the money for a good quality dog, you should get the approriate paperwork. Why close all your options up at 8 weeks old

But if it's just a pet, why do you need a different colour on your papers? Main register isn't just a piece of paper to say that this dog is of higher quality than limited - just like limited doesn't mean its of lesser quality than main. It's still important paperwork stating that the dog is a pedigree dog. One just means you can show and breed registered pups from.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that because the dog is on limited, that its still not a show quality pup? My boss' breeder had picked out their pup as one they wanted to run on for showing. He is of show quality and had my boss and family not come along and made as good an impression on the breeder, the breeder would have kept him also, and shown him etc. But, he's in a pet home now and so therefore on the limited register. Just because it's on the limited register doesn't mean its not show quality!!

If someone is new to the breed but develops a genuine interest in showing and the breed, and the breeder can see they're legitimate, I think that as long as they breeder felt the dog was high enough standard to be shown (keeping in mind too that it will be handled by a novice) then they would seriously consider upgrading to give them a chance. Or, they could go and learn from their breeder and other breeders and their second puppy can be of show quality.

Breeders can and do upgrade papers, not sure why you would say 'it's all over'??

[stormie]

My boy is on the limited register, he has no disqualifying faults and I have had breeders gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed. So why is he on the limited register? Because we knew very little about the breed when we bought him, he was our introduction, and we had no intentions of showing or breeding and the breeder did not want him used indiscriminately.

And so she registered him accordingly and we had him desexed as we'd agreed.

It does not make him a lesser quality dog....he is still highly intelligent, moves like a dream, is wonderful to live with and is the best boy in the world.

The breeder owns the dam, sire and Bensons sister. They still have all the rights to the genetic material.

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines.

Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too

You're really anti breeders aren't you?

Perhaps GayleK's breeders put him on limited reg to be responsible. How do they know that GayleK wasn't going to see dollar signs herself with her main reg puppy and sell him on to someone else to breed with?

If a breeder will sell a main reg puppy to anyone and everyone, particularly someone who thinks they DESERVE one, then IMO they don't care much about their lines or their breed.

[mr.mister]

My boy is on the limited register, he has no disqualifying faults and I have had breeders gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed. So why is he on the limited register? Because we knew very little about the breed when we bought him, he was our introduction, and we had no intentions of showing or breeding and the breeder did not want him used indiscriminately.

And so she registered him accordingly and we had him desexed as we'd agreed.

It does not make him a lesser quality dog....he is still highly intelligent, moves like a dream, is wonderful to live with and is the best boy in the world.

The breeder owns the dam, sire and Bensons sister. They still have all the rights to the genetic material.

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines.

Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too

Seriously? AFAIK that sounds like something a responsible breeder would do. No, just because they don't know a lot about the breed does not make them irresponsible, you're right. However, how is the breeder to know that for sure? Surely they are only doing the right thing by the breed, particularly if they know he's only going to a pet home. If it turns out that they decide they would like to get into showing, they could start in neuter class, and if they really liked it they could look at getting a show prospect on main. The breeder has kept the dog's sibling and parents so still has access to that line. No one was being 'conned' here.

[Mystiqview]

What is GOOD... REALLY??

Your definition of good and the next person's of good can be vastly different. How many times have any of us heard that ringside. XYZ dog is this or that. ABC person has done this or that to their dog?

Limit Registration has it's place in breeding. As I said before, to compete in sports, dogs need to have pedigree papers. A dog with a blue eye, or an incorrect coat colour or other things that do not qualify them for breeding/showing does not make a dog faulty.

There are enough show dogs out there like many non show dogs who have CH titles or higher, are bred with, who have had to have operations to correct, mouth, OCD, HD, cruciates and any other structural issues. Meanwhile the "pet" within the litter is perfect in health. It may have had something not quite up to scratch as the breeder's pick or the breeder could not find a show home for it.

Which dog is NOW faulty?

[sas]

Black Bronson, you say the most amazing things across different threads.....what's your deal....are you just trying to bait people or are you truely serious about what comes out of your mouth?

[Greytmate]

There are no rules that determine only show/breeding homes get main registration. It's exploitation of a set of circumstances that some breeders out of habit think this is the registration guidelines which it isn't. If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one. Things may change from puppyhood to adult where having a nice dog, someone may want to show it after becomming enthused in the breed???. The breeder won't upgrade the registration to main, it's all over. If you pay the money for a good quality dog, you should get the approriate paperwork. Why close all your options up at 8 weeks old

You can't always get what you want. The breeder holds the dog and if there is enough demand for the dog, the seller can put as many conditions as they see fit.

Not every person is fit to own a dog. Good breeders recognise that, and may put conditions on the sale to prove the buyer's commitment.

If there are two puppies available and ten people want them, why wouldn't a breeder sell to the people that agree to look after the dog exactly the way the breeder likes it to be done?

You would hope the breeder would prioritise their puppy buyers with welfare as a priority, rather than just selling main registered dogs to the highest bidder.

[Black Bronson]

There are no rules that determine only show/breeding homes get main registration. It's exploitation of a set of circumstances that some breeders out of habit think this is the registration guidelines which it isn't. If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one. Things may change from puppyhood to adult where having a nice dog, someone may want to show it after becomming enthused in the breed???. The breeder won't upgrade the registration to main, it's all over. If you pay the money for a good quality dog, you should get the approriate paperwork. Why close all your options up at 8 weeks old

But if it's just a pet, why do you need a different colour on your papers? Main register isn't just a piece of paper to say that this dog is of higher quality than limited - just like limited doesn't mean its of lesser quality than main. It's still important paperwork stating that the dog is a pedigree dog. One just means you can show and breed registered pups from.

I'm not sure why you keep assuming that because the dog is on limited, that its still not a show quality pup? My boss' breeder had picked out their pup as one they wanted to run on for showing. He is of show quality and had my boss and family not come along and made as good an impression on the breeder, the breeder would have kept him also, and shown him etc. But, he's in a pet home now and so therefore on the limited register. Just because it's on the limited register doesn't mean its not show quality!!

If someone is new to the breed but develops a genuine interest in showing and the breed, and the breeder can see they're legitimate, I think that as long as they breeder felt the dog was high enough standard to be shown (keeping in mind too that it will be handled by a novice) then they would seriously consider upgrading to give them a chance. Or, they could go and learn from their breeder and other breeders and their second puppy can be of show quality.

Breeders can and do upgrade papers, not sure why you would say 'it's all over'??

No, I am not saying limited register is a lesser quality but it should be. The registration has nothing to do with the home, it's to do with the puppy. If it's good quality it should be on main regardless and if faulty, it goes on limited. Ultimately, if breeders a placing good pups on limited that are main register quality, they are ripping their buyers off IMO

[stormie]

So you're saying I got ripped off because I have a limited registered dog, because I had/have no interest in showing and because my breeder doesn't want anyone but her or people she's OK'd, breeding with her lines? Even though I have a wonderful dog, I got ripped off because his papers, which live in a folder rarely to be looked it, are red and not blue?

[Sayly]

Here in lies a major problem that your vet should have been aware of. MDR1 in Collies.

It seems to be a gap in vets knowledge because I've never had a vet even know about ivermectin sensitivity. And it's in collie types as well as collies (Aussie Shepherds are from the collie family).

I'm concerned now. Neither our breeder or our vet mentioned anything about bcs being sensitive to heartworming. we dont use the injection, so is it only this that causes problems? or is it things like tablets and advocate also?

Yes. Be very careful, ivomectin is in a few things.

Dog/s only need to be DNA profiled to aleviate any concerns.

Check out ivermectin sensitivity and MDR1 on the net.

Like BB said there is a DNA test that is available if you want to spend the money to see if your dog carries the gene to be sensitive to these drugs, or you can just stay away from certain drugs.

[mr.mister]

^eta: that's in response to Bronson, not Lyndsay.

Edited May 16, 2010 by alexhegyesi

[Mystiqview]

BB.

They are only ripping the buyers off if the buyer wants a Main Register puppy to show or breed. If they do not want that, then it is irrelevant.

If the pup is going to sit in a back yard somewhere, it does not matter what register it is on. Being on Main Registration is not going to change the fact the dog is sitting in the back yard. The person who went to the breeder is hoping by going to an ethical and registered breeder they are getting a puppy with some sort of health guarantee and a pedigree to say it is all one breed and not some cross bred with dubious history.

If a person comes to me and asks for a Main Register puppy, if their reasons are sound, they plan to do the right thing by the breed and there is a puppy available, it will be considered. Otherwise they can go elsewhere. If a person only wants a pet and not show, then Limit Registration is all that is needed. If the dog is not going to be shown or bred, then why put it on main registration. It serves no point??

[Black Bronson]

My boy is on the limited register, he has no disqualifying faults and I have had breeders gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed. So why is he on the limited register? Because we knew very little about the breed when we bought him, he was our introduction, and we had no intentions of showing or breeding and the breeder did not want him used indiscriminately.

And so she registered him accordingly and we had him desexed as we'd agreed.

It does not make him a lesser quality dog....he is still highly intelligent, moves like a dream, is wonderful to live with and is the best boy in the world.

The breeder owns the dam, sire and Bensons sister. They still have all the rights to the genetic material.

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines.

Your boy is on limited register because you were conned out of a main registration that was rightfully yours.............unless you got him at a reduced price like the old days unpapered sale. Because you knew little about the breed and your boy was your introduction doesn't automatically make you an irresponsible owner unworthy of a main registered pup. That's a cheek in it's self.........if a breeder thinks I am not worthy of, or qualify for a main registered pup, they can belt it up their jumper........I will go elsewhere to a breeder who doesn't want their cake and eat it too

You're really anti breeders aren't you?

Perhaps GayleK's breeders put him on limited reg to be responsible. How do they know that GayleK wasn't going to see dollar signs herself with her main reg puppy and sell him on to someone else to breed with?

If a breeder will sell a main reg puppy to anyone and everyone, particularly someone who thinks they DESERVE one, then IMO they don't care much about their lines or their breed.

No, not at all, I am anti breeders laying down too many conditions which is on the increase. What the OP has mentioned is out of control............but it starts somewhere and evolves. My first purebreed I purchased was in 1982 and I remember clearly the breeder asking if I wanted papers or not. Papered puppies were $300 and non papered $200 and chose papered for the novelty of owning a purebreed papered dog. $300 back then was a lot for a dog when you could get a BYB generally for free, no more than $10/$15 tops. Not too many donkeys would pay that money for a dog, the breeders knew that and the same applies today. There may be exceptions where irresponsible people will buy a quality purebreed for misadventure, but seriously, some breeders get carried away with this philosphy and suspect every buyer belongs to the BYB set and are purchasing to specifically mess up their lines and ruin their puppies which is not true.

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson, you say the most amazing things across different threads.....what's your deal....are you just trying to bait people or are you truely serious about what comes out of your mouth?

Just an old dog trying to learn new tricks Sas............and some of these new tricks don't make a lot of sense sometimes

[Shaar]

If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one.

And what purpose would that serve other than to be able to wave a piece of paper around in front of your friends that says "main register"

Yeah, what if they do decide to show that dog in the future... well that's a bit of bad luck on their part because they should have bought a show quality puppy in the first place. If it is on limited register, the breeder obviously doesn't want it shown or bred from.

But on the flip side what if they decide to BREED that dog because it was on main register and someone from an opposing kennel wanted to get their hands on the bloodlines? I'm sure a good portion of 'general' pet owners would jump at the chance of a $1000 stud fee.

I really don't understand your argument.

edited for spelling

Edited May 16, 2010 by Shaar

[Starkehre]

Black Bronson, you say the most amazing things across different threads.....what's your deal....are you just trying to bait people or are you truely serious about what comes out of your mouth?

+1

[whippets]

If you want a fully papered show quality pup (main register) for a pet, you should be able to buy one.

We like to breed show quality pups in every litter as well but it doesn't always happen. It's not like going to a supermarket.