Breeders' Conditions When Selling A Puppy

[Danois]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

I agree Rebanne.

In danes there are some colour 'faults' which mean the dogs cannot be shown (correct conformation aside) - merle, merlequin, fawns with brown masks, mantles with breaks in the blanket, blacks or blues with too much white therefore there is no requirements for these dogs to be on the main register - you cannot show them and it would be highly unlikely they would be used in a breeding program. Therefore they go on the limited register and go to great pet homes.

[stormie]

Why should it be put on main if its good quality? Pet owners/newbies to the breed are just as entitled to a 'good quality' dog. A dog should only be placed on the main register if it's going to a responsible home for showing and maybe breeding down the track.

Main register pups are not always of good quality, as a pet owner you would like to think that you are getting a very well bred dog, doesn't happen

Of course not, and the reason mains aren't always of good quality if because some breeder with no idea on what they're doing has got themselves a few dogs on the main reg which they've bred because one is male and the other is female.

Even if the dogs they've obtained are of reasonable quality, unless they put it with something that will compliment it, you could end up with poorly conformed dogs.

[Mystiqview]

Re Limit Register.

There seems to be some confusion as to its purpose. I agree NOT all dogs are worthy to be bred from. However it does not mean they are "Faulty" or "second rate". I have seen some darn pretty good pet puppies who may have a wrong coat colour in my breed a blue eye or some other minor issue that means you cannot show it. It does not necessarily mean its structure or other qualities are a fault. I would rather have a a cosmetic fault come up such as colour, than a structural fault any day.

I have seen some Limit Register dogs who should me on Main and shown and some Main Register dogs being shown who should be on Limit.

Limit Register to my belief is there for those dogs who should not be bred. In Qld in particular until the last few years, only pedigree could compete in dog sports. All those mutts could not compete. We have come into line and allowed those mutts, however there are still restrictions on how many a person is allowed and when they can be registered with the CCC. Limit was an option for those dogs that should not be bred, but are still pedigree. It allowed here at least, those dogs to compete in the dog sports as a pedigree animal and be recognised for its pedigree.

If a sports person or a pet person is not going to show/breed, and they are going to desex the pup anyway. Then WHY must it be on main register? What is the point? Many pet owners don't know the first thing about the registers and don't care.

Those who are going to breed will breed unless the dog goes out desexed (another debate all together). Simple. They will not care if the dog is on main or limit registration. All they will say to their puppy buyers is it is pedigree.

[furballs]

Of course not, and the reason mains aren't always of good quality if because some breeder with no idea on what they're doing has got themselves a few dogs on the main reg which they've bred because one is male and the other is female.

Even if the dogs they've obtained are of reasonable quality, unless they put it with something that will compliment it, you could end up with poorly conformed dogs.

exactly

[stormie]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

Exactly.

Orbit's litter was small and varied. He isn't as well built as his brothers, but overall is still of high quality breeding, but just not as good as his brothers.

Now, say the litter was even and all ended up as well as the best. If Orbit was as beautifully built as his brother, why would he need to be put on main reg, when he is coming to me - a home with no showing/breeding experience whatsoever? If he was on main, then it still wouldn't be different. I am not interested in breeding and care enough about my breed to think about it.

But, say he went to another home, on the main register. This home seemed like a lovely pet home. After a few months they are told that their dog is of breeding quality, because he's on the main reg. (by some random member of the public with no idea). New owner sees dollar signs and decides to register a prefix. They breed Orbit to some Brindle bitch they got from another breeder, on the main reg also, and end up with terribly built puppies with a whole lot of weird and random colours.

Woohoo - more money cause they have rare colours. Even better, because Orbit has a well known, respected prefix, the owners advertise their 'quality' puppies because they are of (prefix) lines. So then you have terrible dogs running around, also probably on the main because these newbie breeders think their puppies are awesome because they've never seen a standard in their lives, and it goes on and on and on.

Edited May 16, 2010 by stormie

[Snout Girl]

pretty much a statement of good intentions.

Things like Ivemectin (commonly found in heart worm meds) and collies are concerning as collies are sensitive to Ivemectin and it can kill. Not too bad with BCs, but still possible.

High protein diets with Dalmatians are also known issues.

Things like this should be observed by puppy buyers and a responsibility of breeders to inform puppy buyers of known issues within the chosen breed

Our BC boy died from poisoning from the annual heartworm injection. He was a rescue, and we hadn't been told anything about risks involved with certain vaccines. We simply trusted our vet (we didn't know we had any reason not to) when they offered the injection, and after a full year of on-and-off illness, with us having no idea what was going on, he passed 6 weeks after the second injection from a massive haemorrhage (sp).

So, there is validity in vaccination conditions I think. I think going so far as to say you cannot vaccinate your dog ever is going too far, but making a point of educating new puppy buyers (and warning against) certain vaccines and medications can in the end save the dog's life. I wish we'd had the knowledge.

add: I think some of those conditions are rather ridiculous and would ward off many a pet puppy buyer.

I advise my puppy buyers to steer clear of the yearly heartworm injection. I tell them it is ultimately their choice, however as the injection is an *mectin product, some collies may be sensitive to it. I know of BC people who use it without issue. I know of breeders who use it without issue. The company who makes the product of course claim it is safe to use on collies. And people who may have been using the monthly form of it, will not think twice about going to the yearly form for convenience.

I prefer the monthly heartworm. For one, if there is going to be a reaction to it, it is a month base and not a year base if you needed to try to counteract it. It is important to note, the heartworm injection is different to the vaccinations. And like ANY medication, reactions can be individual.

I'm concerned now. Neither our breeder or our vet mentioned anything about bcs being sensitive to heartworming. we dont use the injection, so is it only this that causes problems? or is it things like tablets and advocate also?

[Greytmate]

I'm concerned now. Neither our breeder or our vet mentioned anything about bcs being sensitive to heartworming. we dont use the injection, so is it only this that causes problems? or is it things like tablets and advocate also?

Yes. Be very careful, ivomectin is in a few things.

[Black Bronson]

I think some breeders get too carried away with their own perceived importance really When I purchase a quality bred puppy, I want it on main register with no restrictions. Unless a puppy has obvious faults, my 3 year old is on limited register due to a coat fault in the breed, fair enough, but a well bred puppy may turn out very good and very breed worthy and shouldn't be restricted with desexing clauses or limited registers as you never know until it matures. Restrictions tells me that the breeders are not confident of the quality they are breeding and personally wouldn't purchase from those breeders. ;)

Wow. I am of the total opposite. I'd stay clear of any breeder who puts all their puppies on main register. You only have to look at what's being bred by novice breeders in all breeds to see why it's dangerous to put everything on the main. There is variance in most litters and I think it's important to still scrutinize the litter to only pick 'the best'. I'm not sure how you can say that by putting some pups on limited, means the breeder isn't confident with their breeding. In one well planned litter, you could get a very high quality, well put together dog, but yet it's littermate may have different qualities which doesn't see it as well conformed, and thus should be placed on limited. Doesn't mean that it's not 'quality'.

The others may still be of very high quality and better than many being shown, but to put them all on main with no restrictions on breeding will only see them end up in the hands of novices who will ruin the lines.

To me, breeders who put restrictions on their dogs are being responsible for their breed.

well said Stormie.

I don't think every pup in a litter is worthy of putting on the mains, and breeders who are objective and selective for their breed's future and maintaining quality in the lines, would not be so quick to send out their pups with mains reg and no restrictions at all.

fifi

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

Why should it be put on main if its good quality? Pet owners/newbies to the breed are just as entitled to a 'good quality' dog. A dog should only be placed on the main register if it's going to a responsible home for showing and maybe breeding down the track.

If I was breeding good quality dogs, I'd want to uphold my reputation of my lines. I would only sell main reg puppies to people I knew and trusted and even then they'd probably be on terms, because I wouldn't want my lines out there being used by anyone, to breed with anything.

I see it all the time in my breed. Complete novice breeders that have managed to come across a dog on main reg who has some good lines back there, and putting it to everything and anything, making some terribly conformed dogs, but using the names of the previous lines to 'cash in' and try to say their dogs are of good quality because they've got XXXX breeding.

There are no rules that determine only show or breeding prospects are to be main registered and the rest limited???. Limited is really the same as unpapered in the old days. A limited register has no real purpose other than a set of papers for the hell of it........it doesn't have much meaning other than verification of the breed and family tree.

[Black Bronson]

That's a theory on the BYB, but the BYB will breed regardless so isn't it better for the BYB to have some quality more healthy dogs to breed with than using the products of other BYB breedings.

Sell them the pups that you breed then. I can't see any ethical, ANKC registered breeder who takes pride in their work voluntarily handing over entire stock to a BYB so they can breed better quality pups.

Desexed showings are a specific category aren't they???................It's not permitted in the ANKC top shelf breed exhibits I didn't think???

It's a seperate class, but there's also been talk that there will be neuter titles sometime in the future. I am not up on the dog show gossip lately so maybe someone esle can fill in the gaps.

Most speciality champ shows have a neuter class and if that's not top shelf, then I dunno what is!

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

[Trisven13]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

Exactly! Any Fauve that I breed that has any kind of mismarking or similar restricting it from being shown will be put on limited register.

I have thought long and hard about rehoming desexed and I think that anything that I place in a pet home on limited register will be desexed before it leaves me. The last thing I want to see out there is a Fauve X. I *think* that I will place the balance on main register given the scarcity of Fauves in Australia - I don't want to desex all pups before rehoming only to have some disaster down the track and lose the lines completely.

My daughter's cavalier was born on main register only because he was a stud fee pup. The breeder thought he wouldn't turn out so pet homed him - turns out she (by her own admission) got it wrong. He will most likely now be shown in shows around Mildura if there are any neuter classes. If I was buying purely for pet I would expect to buy on limited register.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Trisven13

[Black Bronson]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

If it has a disqualifying fault, it's faulty. A crossbreed can live long healthy life too, but cannot be papered. Not all puppies rated as very promising turn out champions but are still breedworthy and still shown and bred. If it's a good pup, it deserves to be main registered IMO.

[mr.mister]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

If it has a disqualifying fault, it's faulty. A crossbreed can live long healthy life too, but cannot be papered. Not all puppies rated as very promising turn out champions but are still breedworthy and still shown and bred. If it's a good pup, it deserves to be main registered IMO.

I do wish you'd answer my previous post.

Okay, so why? Why does it deserve to be main registered, if it is going to a pet home and is not to be used for breeding? Limit registering isn't bulletproof but puts a safety blanket there in case, despite the breeder's better judgement, the dog falls into the wrong hands and is bred. Just because it's a 'good dog' doesn't warrant MR and being bred. God knows we've got enough dogs on earth needing homes so when one chooses for breeding, one needs to choose very carefully. I know it doesn't solve all issues, but I personally can't find the point of putting a pup on main if it is solely intended as a pet not to be bred from.

edit: spelling brainfart.

Edited May 16, 2010 by alexhegyesi

[Greytmate]

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

It can usually be reproduced by repeating the mating.

The desexed champion may or may not have been able to reproduce its own excellence. Not all champions do.

A big yes to fun, involvement and interest. :D

[Bilbo Baggins]

Yeah it was a bit like that. I've been spending some time convincing this friend of mine to buy from a registered breeder. I'd convinced her but I think she might have become un-convinced after today's experience with one breeder.

:D :D :rofl: Sorry thats so sad I'd cry if I did not laugh.

There was a thread about this awhile I go, it may even have been deleted. Yep look elsewhere.

[Black Bronson]

Why should it be put on main if its good quality? Pet owners/newbies to the breed are just as entitled to a 'good quality' dog. A dog should only be placed on the main register if it's going to a responsible home for showing and maybe breeding down the track.

Main register pups are not always of good quality, as a pet owner you would like to think that you are getting a very well bred dog, doesn't happen

Of course not, and the reason mains aren't always of good quality if because some breeder with no idea on what they're doing has got themselves a few dogs on the main reg which they've bred because one is male and the other is female.

Even if the dogs they've obtained are of reasonable quality, unless they put it with something that will compliment it, you could end up with poorly conformed dogs.

Lovely post Stormie That should be the "breeders law". Too many that have a female think that using the latest champion male will produce more champions which depending on the particular female is not always the case. Sometimes the male that placed 10th would be a better stud prospect :D

[Bilbo Baggins]

I don't really want to say which breed because people might start trying to guess who we're talking about and I don't want it to become a personal thing.

SBT123 I guess that's what it boils down to - finding another breeder. In this case there was no request for a guarantee for the puppy or whatever, to be honest the conversation didn't go that far.

But as I said for myself I'm comfortable with some conditions, but there are some things I just think are the owner's decision (and responsibility) not the breeder's.

For example, I would be very reluctant to go with a breeder who wanted to prevent me from vaccinating my dog. I had never heard of this before and I was a bit taken aback. Objected to heartworm protection too. I just think those things are important.

I'd be really interested to hear what kinds of conditions would you consider to be normal practice? If I have some understanding of that, perhaps I'll be less surprised in future and I can think through what I am happy with and what I am not happy with.

If you had a doctor who tried to force his anti vaccination/anti abortion on you you would go elsewhere.

[Beth.]

I agree, not every pup in the litter are always good examples which are called "faulty" and should be on limited register. However, a "faulty" puppy is hardly of good quality is it???. If the puppy is good quality, it should be on main automatically.

a pup that may not be of show quality is hardly faulty, it could be as something as minor as a mis mark, a bit too much white for example. Something that has no bearing on the pups ability to live a long and normal life with it's new family.

I agree Rebanne.

In danes there are some colour 'faults' which mean the dogs cannot be shown (correct conformation aside) - merle, merlequin, fawns with brown masks, mantles with breaks in the blanket, blacks or blues with too much white therefore there is no requirements for these dogs to be on the main register - you cannot show them and it would be highly unlikely they would be used in a breeding program. Therefore they go on the limited register and go to great pet homes.

I fully agree too!!!!!! Lottie is a mis-mark for the breed - she's missing some colour around her left eye, but that doesn't make her a worse quality dog?? She is the BEST dog, very healthy and happy, full of life and I don't see how you could call her of worse quality?? 'Faulty' is a little harsh (I told her she was faulty and it serverly damaged her self esteem ), so now she's referred to as 'Unique' :D .

She's from a great breeder, who told me all about the heartworm injections (ivermectin) and the effects it can have on collie type dogs, she's been desexed, and I reguarly send my breeder updated photos of my 'Faulty' dog :D

Back to the OPs list you were given - My breeder recommended foods - told me what Lottie was on - which I slowly changed her over to what I had planned to feed her, vaccination details, etc, all which i think was very resonable, so keep looking and i'm sure you'll find a great breeder who will fit what you want

[Mystiqview]

pretty much a statement of good intentions.

Things like Ivemectin (commonly found in heart worm meds) and collies are concerning as collies are sensitive to Ivemectin and it can kill. Not too bad with BCs, but still possible.

High protein diets with Dalmatians are also known issues.

Things like this should be observed by puppy buyers and a responsibility of breeders to inform puppy buyers of known issues within the chosen breed

Our BC boy died from poisoning from the annual heartworm injection. He was a rescue, and we hadn't been told anything about risks involved with certain vaccines. We simply trusted our vet (we didn't know we had any reason not to) when they offered the injection, and after a full year of on-and-off illness, with us having no idea what was going on, he passed 6 weeks after the second injection from a massive haemorrhage (sp).

So, there is validity in vaccination conditions I think. I think going so far as to say you cannot vaccinate your dog ever is going too far, but making a point of educating new puppy buyers (and warning against) certain vaccines and medications can in the end save the dog's life. I wish we'd had the knowledge.

add: I think some of those conditions are rather ridiculous and would ward off many a pet puppy buyer.

I advise my puppy buyers to steer clear of the yearly heartworm injection. I tell them it is ultimately their choice, however as the injection is an *mectin product, some collies may be sensitive to it. I know of BC people who use it without issue. I know of breeders who use it without issue. The company who makes the product of course claim it is safe to use on collies. And people who may have been using the monthly form of it, will not think twice about going to the yearly form for convenience.

I prefer the monthly heartworm. For one, if there is going to be a reaction to it, it is a month base and not a year base if you needed to try to counteract it. It is important to note, the heartworm injection is different to the vaccinations. And like ANY medication, reactions can be individual.

I'm concerned now. Neither our breeder or our vet mentioned anything about bcs being sensitive to heartworming. we dont use the injection, so is it only this that causes problems? or is it things like tablets and advocate also?

Ivemectin is in a number of worming medications (Heartguard for example). Proheart for example is made from Moxidectin. Info Link)

Basically. read the label

[Gayle.]

My boy is on the limited register, he has no disqualifying faults and I have had breeders gnash their teeth over the fact that he's desexed. So why is he on the limited register? Because we knew very little about the breed when we bought him, he was our introduction, and we had no intentions of showing or breeding and the breeder did not want him used indiscriminately.

And so she registered him accordingly and we had him desexed as we'd agreed.

It does not make him a lesser quality dog....he is still highly intelligent, moves like a dream, is wonderful to live with and is the best boy in the world.

The breeder owns the dam, sire and Bensons sister. They still have all the rights to the genetic material.

A desexed show class is a bit of fun and gets people involved and interested, but what's the use of a desexed champion when the excellence can't be reproduced

Of course it can. Use dogs with the same lines.

Edited May 16, 2010 by GayleK

[Bilbo Baggins]

pretty much a statement of good intentions.

Things like Ivemectin (commonly found in heart worm meds) and collies are concerning as collies are sensitive to Ivemectin and it can kill. Not too bad with BCs, but still possible.

High protein diets with Dalmatians are also known issues.

Things like this should be observed by puppy buyers and a responsibility of breeders to inform puppy buyers of known issues within the chosen breed

Our BC boy died from poisoning from the annual heartworm injection. He was a rescue, and we hadn't been told anything about risks involved with certain vaccines. We simply trusted our vet (we didn't know we had any reason not to) when they offered the injection, and after a full year of on-and-off illness, with us having no idea what was going on, he passed 6 weeks after the second injection from a massive haemorrhage (sp).

So, there is validity in vaccination conditions I think. I think going so far as to say you cannot vaccinate your dog ever is going too far, but making a point of educating new puppy buyers (and warning against) certain vaccines and medications can in the end save the dog's life. I wish we'd had the knowledge.

add: I think some of those conditions are rather ridiculous and would ward off many a pet puppy buyer.

Here in lies a major problem that your vet should have been aware of. MDR1 in Collies.

Because he was a rescue no prior knowledge.