I Need Help.

[Bullbreedlover]

I would seriously consider a thyroid test. A vet should not talk you out of it.

Now I know there are extensive studies being done on overactive and underactive thyroids. I believe Jean Dodds is one of the experts on this.

She advocates treatment even if the results are in the normal range but pushing towards the high or low level.

Have you googled thyroid tests on dogs?

[Erny]

First thing I thought of was thyroid issue as well.

I'm a bit of a staunch "not worth having doing unless you have the tests done by Dr Jean Dodds in the USA" person, simply because Australia doesn't have the facilities for FULL blood panel testing. But given his age and clinical symptoms, it's possible that (if it IS thyroid) it has advanced enough for our Aussie tests to pick up. If they came back negative though, I'd still have a question mark over it if the tests were conducted in Australia. (I've recently found that some Vets will tell you that Australia does do full blood panel tests, but from what I've been able to gather, that's a fallacy - what they mean is that there is a company who will send the bloods OS, and that could be NZ or USA, but they have a contract with their own pathology department over there and that's who conducts the tests and analysis. What I was unable to find out via the Vet Nurse was exactly WHAT tests they run to determine whether it was a full blood panel test or not. Dr. Jean Dodds is the one I trust for this and I also trust her analysis, which relies on several things including age of dog; breed of dog; size of dog. The international courier paperwork and arrangements can be a pain in the butt though). ETA: Sending bloods to the US isn't necessarily as expensive as you might imagine. Allow approximately $200 - $250. Half of that is the international courier fee. Just to save you some leg work, as recently as yesterday I found out that DHL will not accept blood serums, which only leaves Fed-Ex International Courier Service. If you email me (rather than PM) I'll send you the paperwork and directions for taking bloods and shipping OS. Your Vet will need the "blood work instructions" so they know how to prepare the bloods that are to be transported.

In addition to thyroid, I'd be asking that sufficient bloods be taken for a full blood work up (checking liver and other organ function).

And that's where I'd start. The next step depends on the results from the bloods that you have run.

I'd put behaviour aside for the moment (save for modifications to prevent escape) until you know if the bloods will show anything.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Erny

[mita]

Yes, I also think it might help to explore the health issues a bit deeper. The physical signs you describe don't seem just stress-related to me.

I'm not suggesting that it is an immune system-related blood disorder, but some of those skin-coat signs are a bit like the dog next door.....who did develop one. And he'd get very high-wired when it was acting up. He was around 8 yrs when it started to show itself.

And I can understand, too....why others are mentioning thryroid.

Do you have a vet that would double-check health issues?

In the meantime, can you work out a way for him to be inside at night? Just to stop the escaping behaviour & upsetting the other dog.

I also agree that there are other meds that are now being used to calm behavioral issues.....while the bigger picture is being worked out.

When our elderly tibbie grieved long & deep for her late 'sister', an experienced vet put her on a medication given to humans. I had to go to a regular pharmacy to have it filled. So I can also see why others have mentioned looking at more up to date meds.

But I have a niggly feeling, there's something physical going on at the base.

Edited May 14, 2010 by mita

[Erny]

May I just add, Mita, that my suggestion would be for bloods for a full work-up (including the thyroid test I've already spoken of in my preceding post) to be taken before administration of any other drugs? I'm not familiar with what 'other' drugs would be given, but in my cautious fashion, I think I'd be inclined to await blood results before giving other drugs even if they are to help the dog become more calm. My theory being : (scenario example only) Say Loki's thyroid and/or auto-immune come back as as abnormal and medication is prescribed. Initially it is a trial period so that the correct dosage can be established. I would think that other drugs may influence not only the dog's system but also its behaviour, which might muddy the waters somewhat to be able to recognise differences and report on changes.

Just a thought.

[mita]

May I just add, Mita, that my suggestion would be for bloods for a full work-up (including the thyroid test I've already spoken of in my preceding post) to be taken before administration of any other drugs? I'm not familiar with what 'other' drugs would be given, but in my cautious fashion, I think I'd be inclined to await blood results before giving other drugs even if they are to help the dog become more calm. My theory being : (scenario example only) Say Loki's thyroid and/or auto-immune come back as as abnormal and medication is prescribed. Initially it is a trial period so that the correct dosage can be established. I would think that other drugs may influence not only the dog's system but also its behaviour, which might muddy the waters somewhat to be able to recognise differences and report on changes.

I agree, Erny. What you've just said is very important. And same applies with humans. Check all possible underlying physical issues first.

You are correct about trying to avoid masking any actual condition via medicating.

My excellent vet has brought up that very point on one occasion.

The OP's really needs a vet who can case-manage this dog well.

[mita]

I found this on a website about caring for a Shiba Inu dog. http://www.shiba-inu-puppies.com/health-illness/

There's no reference to any research study, but possibly it reflects anecdotal evidence. Interestingly, all the points have been brought up by posters in this thread:

Whenever bring your dog to see a vet, you should always pay attentions to treatments that your dog going to have. Show your concern to the health of your Shiba and alert your vet that your pet is Shiba and sensitive to medications, stay in the vet’s clinic at least 30 minutes before you leave as a precautionary measure to ensure it has no negative reactions after medications.

Thyroid Problems

Another common health issue that Shiba may have is the thyroid problems. Thyroid problems vary and may cause several symptoms such as overweight or underweight. Serious thyroid problems can also lower the immune system.

Do not blame your Shiba if it has sudden change in its behavior and become aggressive. It may due to hidden thyroid problem. A better understanding on your your pet’s normal behavior patterns is important so that you can easily find out when something goes wrong. If it happen to be the thyroid disease, a proper medication can always resolve the issues that occurred.

Eye Defects & Vision Problems

Eye defects are the main reason that causes the degradation of Shiba’s vision. It is commonly found in this dog and should be checked by a veterinarian. When you buy a new Shiba puppy home, you should always take it to your vet for examination as soon as possible. The vet can do a thorough examination and make sure that there are no congenital defects or other problems that you need to be aware of, such as eyes defect. Proper medications will be provided by the vet if it is found with eye problems.

Edited May 14, 2010 by mita

[kora]

Please take Loki to the vet and insist on a full blood screen. Dogs are very stoic creatures and sadly put up with a fair amount of pain before they start showing any signs or symptoms, either physical or behavioural. I truly believe that a sudden change in Loki's behaviour should be throughly investigated and not just put down to anxiety. Dogs in pain can appear to be anxious and i don't believe anxiety medication is the answer until bloods are taken and further investigations are carried out. I know it is a very trying time for you, especially when you are sleep deprived but please understand that Loki is communicating his problems with you the only way he knows how. My thoughts are with you at this confusing time.

[Jsk]

Definately get the blood work done!

Also whilst trying to deal with the problem try and keep dealing with the same vet, cause the one that talked you out of getting blood work done sounds like an idiot!

[Cairo1]

Are you in Tassie or did Loki come from Tassie?? I know of an excellent vet practice that has a variety of approaches to animal health care ie there are holistic vets as well as traditional practitioners. They are based in Hobart. I am with everyone else in that I really believe your dog needs a full blood panel done. If you can at least rule out medical issues then you have something to work with. You have lots of resources at your fingertips, how about picking one and maybe nutting out a working plan?

I know that sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees but if you break the issues down and at the very least try and rule out some things, then you can put together a bit of a framework to work within. Often a multi-pronged approach won't help you isolate the issues. . . . you need a plan more like an elimination diet!!

I wish you luck and if you want more details about the Vet Practice in Hobart,pm me

Wishing you well

Cairo1

[Monah]

definately thyroid checks etc. Poor boy.xx I know nothing about shibas except that they are so stunning looking! Lovely.

Re escape, is there any way at all you can have them indoors somewhere so that you can at least get some sleep? without the worry of escape?

I would also have a check done for brain tumours etc. I had a terrier with a brain tumour and it took a while to be diagnosed as he presented with all sorts of strange symptoms and the vet only had what I said to go on. It was not entriely noticable until he had muscle wasteage on his skull which was dificult to see at first because of his coat.

He presented with odd behaviour, weight loss although eating more than ever, vagueness, unfocassed, occassionally walked 'crooked' ie. in a diagonal line not direct line, weakness, all sorts of symptoms that could have been other things and he was 12 and had never exhibited these before so I firstly put it down to 'old age', senility or deafness etc..

My vet also sends samples to USA and I recommend this too. Good luck, what a shame, I hope you have a good outcome. It's os hard when you ccan't see anything really 'physical' xxxxxxxxx

[Jigsaw]

I do hope you can get some answers, keep at it until someone (vet) listens and acts. I agree it is important to start with the physical before starting to look for anything else. What is Loki's appetite like? Does he interact with you normally, as in does he want to play with you or Wylie? Write down anything you can think of that is different from what you would consider normal, so you have it as a reference to look to. You could in the meantime try some T-touch/massage work and/or an anxiety wrap, if you can find a therapist who can give you some pointers in what to do, as a first step for non medical intervention prior to vetwork.

[JackieW]

How do you feel about animal communicators? I've had two conversations with Caroline Pope about one of my dogs and I found the second one in particular to be very helpful. http://www.caroline-pope.com/index.html

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've had 3 dogs with dementia in the last few years. 1 made life more challenging and changes in the house and re what we did had to be made, that I could cope with. 2 made my life unbearable through lack of sleep, after a year of being very sleep deprived I feel asleep on the way to work, at the wheel. I thought this can't go on. One of them passed away of natural causes shortly after. The other remained. What to do, I thought I would have to put him to sleep - unlike the other dog who got "lost" in the night and would start barking, Luigi decided he needed to be fed at all hours of the night and would disturb me constantly. Giving him food wasn't the answer - believe me I tried everything.

Then I was talking to a lady with a young dog who had anxiety, she'd had fantastic results with Chinese herbs from the All Natural Vet at Russell Lea, inner west of Sydney. I took Luigi along and got a prescription of herbs and within two days, both of us were much happier.

You can do a phone consult if you can't get there in person, they will talk to your own vet as appropriate. If I hadn't have tried it, I wouldn't have believed it but Luigi was able to be with me for another 8 months before he passed away aged about 16.

Dementia started at about age 11 in one of my other dogs but it can start earlier.

Whether this is dementia, anxiety or whatever, if the changes you are prepared to make don't work then I would try Chinese herbs.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Thanks for all the replies guys. He decided he wanted outside in the middle of the night. I just went to bring him in and he has gone again. I fixed one part of the fence yesterday so I think I can add jumping to his list of escapes. I just checked on him a few minutes ago!

I left the front door open and he just came back inside. Now he wants outside again! Argh!!

So for now how is the best way to crate train him and possibly Wylie? I'm sure there must be a thread on it somewhere in here?

[ozjen]

Might be worthwhile getting his thyroid checked for the hair loss and loss of condition. The thunderstorm thing might be to do with his age and changes in his hearing or ears. One of my dogs when he got older developed an intense fear of thunderstorms and fireworks although they were never an issue when he was younger.

With regard to the escaping the dog I had with the thunderstorm issues also started to jump a 6ft odd fence on a regular basis although he had shown no interest in escaping prior, this was when he was about 7yrs old. Turned out he had a thing for the sterilized German Shepherd next door and they would have a game and then just lay together until someone came home. Sterilizing him and heightening the fence didn't help, even with stitches in he was still scaling the fence at 7 and a 1/2 feet. He wasn't my only dog either so he had company in his own yard.

Hope you get some answers and solutions to your problems with Loki, I love Shiba's and use to have a lovely Black and Tan girl who I titled in the ring. She was a very smart little cookie but also disrupted the household way too often and was rehomed after an incedent with my old Papillon.

[Erny]

Thanks for all the replies guys. He decided he wanted outside in the middle of the night. I left the front door open and he just came back inside. Now he wants outside again! Argh!! So for now how is the best way to crate train him and possibly Wylie? I'm sure there must be a thread on it somewhere in here?

Are you able to contain him in the laundry? Would that be more familiar to him? If you google "Crate Training" you should find lots of sites that will address the "how to" of crate training. And of course you can't keep him contained in the crate for too long, so walks (use a long line) are going to be on the list, assuming he's energetic enough for them.

Something that bothers me though - is it that he's too warm inside the house and that's why he retreats to the outdoors? Does he pant much? If he's feeling hot (even though the weather is frigid), make sure he's got a nice cool place (but draft and dampness free) to rest.

No point jumping to any conclusions until bloods are draw and all tests done with results known, and I also could be completely off the mark (maybe misinterpreting your posts content), but I'm thinking something about the adrenal gland could be going on. If the bloods don't show anything and don't point anywhere in particular, an Ultra Sound might be the next step, or at least one of them that you might wish to consider. But if your Vet is a good one, you'll be under his/her advisement.

And first step is those bloods.

[cannibalgoldfish]

He isn't hot inside, it is freezing in here! He just goes to sleep. Tonught he doesn't want to be indoors. I thought he might want to be with Wylie so I brought him in as well but Loki still wanted out. He is curled up on his bed (for once!) asleep now.

[corvus]

It all sounds oddly familiar. My mother has a dog that has had chronic skin allergies his whole life. I'm not by any means saying that's what it is, but I think it's worth considering allergies. Pyry's skin is prone to being flakey and his coat is always greasy. He gets yeasty ears a lot as well. When he's uncomfortable he starts behaving strangely. He gets into things left around and rips them up and becomes obsessed with breaking out of the yard. I can really imagine him just being driven to distraction by his itchyness or whatever it is that is causing his acute discomfort. He's a sweet, laid back guy and remains so when he's so uncomfortable, just starts acting weird.

Taking grains out of his diet helped the allergies, and he must be washed every week to keep the yeast burdens at bay as he is getting older. But now my mum has just started full-time work for the first time in his life and he is worse than ever. Definitely a stressed out pup.

So, all I'm really saying is that his behaviour is similar to that of Pyry when he is in distress. I hope you can get to the bottom of it all. There's nothing worse than knowing something is wrong but having nothing to treat.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Vet did think it was aleergies last time I took him. He doesn't scratch at all though and his skin isn't raised or inflamed?

[dancinbcs]

Another one here that thinks it definitely sound like thyroid problems. I would be changing vets and getting a full investigation done as Erny suggested.

The fence jumping and coming in the front door is a common problem in dogs that want to be let in to the house. They realise that the quickest way to to be let in is to turn up at the front door. The best solution would be a doggy door so he could come and go as he wants but I understand it is probably not possible in a rental. Crate traing may be an option to settle him down as it has now become a learned behaviour.

Oh, and 8 should not be old for dog that size. I wouldn't expect a Shiba to start showing any aging signs until at least 10 or 11 at least. I have BCs and they are in their prime between about 5 and 9. They usually don't even start to slow down until 12 or 13.