I Need Help.

[cannibalgoldfish]

As the title said, I need help, advice, an exorcist?? ;)

This has been something I have been trying to fix for a while now but I have reached that point where I feel totally helpless. One of my dogs has something wrong/is not happy and I am getting to the point where I feel like hating him ;) Strong words yes, but I cant take much more of this.

I wont don my flame suit because I am desperate and if I hear something I dont agree with I am happy to discuss it. If anyone needs more info please ask. I will probably say far more than is relevant but who knows what will help?

The problem is Loki. He is an 8 (or will be in a few months) year old desexed Shiba inu. Loki lives with another shiba named Wylie who is 6, and not fixed. Despite Loki being a very laid back submissive shiba he is possibly still the dominant dog over Wylie.

Loki has always been "different" His nature is very quiet and casual for a shiba. He has always been underweight. When he blows coat he loses condition as well and ends up very skinny. He also ends up shedding a great deal when he does and every moult he ends up with hair loss under his belly, armpits and the backs of his legs. This naked skin turns a dark purple/black colour but is not thickened or inflamed at all and grows back with the next coat. He has always had a greasy coat and his skin sometimes feels oily. \

I have lived with his weird shedding and weight issues since I got him. I did voice concern about how thin he got one year and the vet did put him on steriods but they really didn't help.

Diet, both dogs get dry food and raw meat/bones/ sometimes offal. They get a lot of lamb offcuts so I can try and get weight on Loki.

None of this back ground may help at all but I'm just trying to give a whole background.

The problem is Loki has been "off" It started last year. He had no enthusiasm for walks and would just drag his heels and lag behind. At home he started spending all his time sleeping during the day. His coat looked dull and he just looked ratty?

Then he started to ignore me. He has always been very responsive (ish) for a shiba. He would ignore me just a little bit less than most.

6 months ago he escaped from my yard. He has lived here for about 6 years and the yard was shiba proof... Or so I thought. It happened once, I fixed the fence. Again, I fixed the fence. It was happening every few weeks or so. Then it became a full time obsession. He started to test everything I could do. If he couldnt go under, he would break through. THen he started jumping 6 foot fences :D

It has become a problem every night. During the day he just lies about but come night fall... he goes into escape overdrive. This is whether i am home or not. He gets really anxious and frantic. He whines and tries repeatedly to get out of the yard but as soon as he does he just comes to the front door and waits for me to let him in. There is nothing out there or any changes at all in his circumstances. It is like he has a mission to get out and if he cant it upsets him. I have watched him try to dig through concrete and bite a tin fence all in the effort to try and escape. He is very distressed and whimpering. He has also decided after nearly 8 years that thunderstorms are terrifying and he throws himself up against the fence in an attempt to escape

He is not an indoor dog. He used to be as a younger dog but my house I live in now has a no pets inside thing in the lease. Loki normally does not like being inside. When I did bring him in he would fret and then let himself out again. Now, he seems a bit more calm if I bring him in.

Sorry this is so long. I'm trying to cover everything....

I mentioned this when it started to the vet. He said it could be either a thyroid problem or contact allergies. I got the feeling he was going on the seasonal hair loss which is normal for Loki at that time? He said to wait and see and bring him back for a blood test if things dont improve. Today was his blood test.

I saw a different vet who said straight up that it was an anxiety disorder. She said she had a dog with the same problem(she was a breeder apparently) She basically told me there was nothing I can do, and Loki would only get worse. She did mention several drugs clo-something or other and vallium but said both may not work and there was no point drugging a dog if you can help it. The basic result was, "your dog has developed an anxiety disorder, too bad. learn to manage it"

Naturally my sleep starved brain rebels. I canot take anymore nights waking up with one dog barking because the other has escaped...... again. I cant take it any more!!! I cant! I am ashamed to say it but I have reached the point where I feel if he gets out one more time, stuff him. I hate feeling like this ;) I need help here. Obviously the first step is to escape proof the yard. I am still working on that. Everytime I think I have, he fools me.

I need advice here. Is he too old to be crate trained? (If I need to bring him inside to deal with his issues.) If I have to crate him over night, do I have to do the other dog as well who will resist it with all his freedom loving might?

Will rescue remedy work?

Any hints or help welcome. Please ask questions if you can? I have left out heaps of stuff because this is getting to be a loooong post.

Oh, One other thing. Around the time Loki started showing strange signs in his behaviour, Wylie suddenly developed a strange obsession with licking Lokis inner ears and er, boy bits. Probably not related but strange anyway... Loki has no sign of an ear infection and all seems fine, except for having no hair inside his ears now.... :p Vet said this was normal and meand Wylie likes him. But ios it a coincidence it started about the same time?

Sorry for the long post. I am at my wits end. I dont know what to do to heklp him. He is obviosly upset, and I feel very helpless.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Please ignore the million spelling problems. I am tired.

But have let Loki in tonight under supervision. This may help? He seems a lot calmer? House training tips may help...?

[MadWoofter]

Sorry to hear your going through this CGF - sounds like a frustrating time.

I have no experience with Shiba's, and sorry but I don't know the background of your hairies, but there are a few things you mentioned that sound familiar. I have a Belgian Shepherd that was originally a foster - and a pretty mistreated one too. He's now very comfortable in his home here with me, but if he gets majorly stressed he exhibits a lot of the traits that you have mentioned Loki showing, particularly:

- excessive coat loss

- apathy while out walking. He gets excited at the prospect, but once out & in the park he'll just lie down in one spot

- dull & ratty looking coat

- sleeping more than usual

While he doesn't have the escape issues, I've noticed my girl also has a particular fascination with his ears, eyes & bits, which she only does when he shows these signs of stress.

Do you think it's a stress thing? I can say with my boy that trying to crate train him only made the situation worse, but he's the kind of dog that needs to be near me and is an indoor dog, so crate training took that away and only increased his stress levels.

Maybe letting Loki in at night might help?

Sorry I really can't help with the professional training stuff, just my thoughts having a hairy who seems to go through something similar.

Good luck & I hope you get some resolution - the trying to get out sounds really scary.

Edited May 14, 2010 by MadWoofter

[PossumCorner]

No help from me, just tons of sympathy for the situation and fingers crossed something works out to improve it.

I have two dogs that live to escape and run: it's cost a fortune in fences, fines and stress. It seems to be a self-rewarding behaviour, the pure joy of running. They always romp home after a few hours unless someone 'rescues' them and call the Ranger. Rheneas (avatar) would never join them, he rushes to find me if they get away and tells on them.

Is 8 getting old for a Shiba? Our neighbour's Great Dane went through a huge personality change when it reached 8 or 9. Savagely attacked my small dog and became very unreliable with their human visitors. Then developed mild dementia and some nasty cancers and had to be pts fairly recently. It did help me realise that as our dogs get older, if they do have personality changes, it just has to be worked around - you can't turn the tide.

Did the blood tests show anything or are you waiting on results? Crate training sounds a good option to me - the security of a crate might settle him down once it becomes a habit for bed-time. And there's nothing to lose, it's a good 'skill' for him to learn for emergencies in any case.

Hope someone who maybe knows the breed can help.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Thank you! help that hasn't thrown me to the wolves! Ok, I know people here have dogs welfare at the first and formost but sometimes I read some replies and I do cringe. Noone wants to be seen as a bad pet owner and until recently things were fine here.

Now, Madwoofer. Loki has no bad sad background. I have had him as as little weird pup and beyond. He has always had "issues" but none of that I blame on his previos owner. He was car sick and scared of travel when I got him but that wasn't his fault (tis a long way to Tasmania) He was always the "odd " child in the litter. . I did go with what his breeder said about him and she did pick him out just for me as a first time shiba owner. Basically when she looked over the litter he was the little mummies boy who sat on her foot and complained that everyone else was having too much fun. I love my little nut job, and he may have not been bursting with massive shiba attributes but he was seeping love and Lokiness from every pore.

"- excessive coat loss

- apathy while out walking. He gets excited at the prospect, but once out & in the park he'll just lie down in one spot

- dull & ratty looking coat

- sleeping more than usual" That is pretty much Loik. He used to love his walks :p

Possumcorner.., I wish it was self rewarding. But I dont think it is. He really doesnt have any plan after he gets out. The vet said it was normal for these things to appear at this stage of his life. She mentioned it being because he is now "old" Am I totally in denial? I thought 8 was middle age for a shiba?

I was talked out of the blood tests. Yes, I know thats bad but I kind of agreed a bit with her reasoning and that helped. I dont think he has all the major thyroid symptoms. But these vets did say anything I dont agree with they are happy to take it further.

He is still playing with my mind... Up until now he hated being trapped inside. Tonight he has crashed on my favorite pajamas (there has to be a link right?) and wont budge.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Would like to add, Loki has moved on frommy pjs to my jumper. I am sensing mum issues. Normaly I have the Wylie tantrum who objects to extra attention to Loki. So far, so good. Wylie has been the wild card here. He hates being seperated from Loki but Wil chuck a tanty.... some times. Tonight, It's ok.

[hortfurball]

The only info I know about Shibas is from reading an article (possibly posted by you) called The Misanthropic Shiba so not much but I'm going to suggest a couple of things from a general perspective.

You asked if rescue remedy would help. I'd say give it a shot, it can't hurt.

A dog who is 8 is entering their 'older dog' stage, no matter the size of the dog. (giant dogs can be old at 6 and some don't make it past 8) It doesn't mean death is imminent, just that they are not as young as they once were. Loki may be feeling the cold more than he used to, might be craving his creature comforts more. If he's coming around to the front door, I'd say he's telling you he wants in at night. Give it a go. It will give you a rest from the escaping and the barking and can't hurt.

It might be worth getting a crate and leaving the door open so he can come and go at will. He may decide that it's a nice safe place. If he sleeps inside all night peacefully with no accidents or trashing of valued items, maybe don't bother with the crate unless you get the impression he'd like the security.

Good luck.

[hortfurball]

Oops, you added more. If Wylie has an issue with this, is it an option for him to come inside too?

[cannibalgoldfish]

I konw Hortfurball.. I like to think 8 is young and springchicken like. Mr creature comforts here ignores the nicely padded out laundry and the extra beds I have given him. Apparently he needs to suffer on the cold concrete and shiver the night away right down next to his bed...

Crates may work? I think Loki will be ok with them. I just need to convince Wylie...

[hortfurball]

I'm guessing this is the same dog whose photo you posted ages ago curled in a ball in the garden bed shivering with cold instead of lying on his bed outside? He's a worry.

[cannibalgoldfish]

Wylie has been up until now the "bad dog" He is enthusiastic, kinda dumb, and all bounce bounce all over the place. Now, Wylie has (finallty! starting to settle down and listen. It took him a looong time but he is starting to respond. So training that failed up until now may possibly work?

[cannibalgoldfish]

I'm guessing this is the same dog whose photo you posted ages ago curled in a ball in the garden bed shivering with cold instead of lying on his bed outside? He's a worry.

Ahhh yes. That would be him. I thought since everyone else thought he had a problem then maybe he does? Apparently if you give him a bed, a blanket, an indoor shelter, the option of coming indoors and a warm secured place to hide out in... Not yet but we are working on "nice happy environments and safe places"

?

[cannibalgoldfish]

As it stands. Loki has a bed at the backdoor step(hone inside... him just waiting to see what happens... Meaning I am dealing with his "issues"

[tdierikx]

Hmmm... life span for a Shiba Inu is apparently between 12 to 16 years (Wikipedia), so Loki would be considered "middle aged" yes?

Apart from being generally "weird", do you think that maybe he is having sight issues? The fact that he gets more anxious at night could indicate something along those lines... worth a look into at least?

You mention Loki's breeder... have you called them about his new behaviour issues? They may have some insights into age related mental/physical deterioration - and hopefully some tips to better deal with it.

Is he a bit of a mummy's boy? Sleeping on your fave PJ's, and the fact that he comes around to the front door when he escapes, makes me think he may be wanting your company when he's feeling a little anxious. Maybe going through your old clothes and giving him some to sleep with might make him feel less stressed.

Living with a neurotic dog can be very upsetting... I feel for you... keep yer chin up, OK?

T.

[Teebs]

I did obedience with a Shiba, stubborn thing she was

No read advice, but have you thought about building a run? Cement floor, four sides and a roof? that way you can house him safely in the yard and he cant get out?

[Scarlet]

I just get a feeling that there is a physical connection to his problems-or part of it is physical.

I'd be pushing the vet or trying an animal naturopath?

I know stress can do strange things but his coat/skin would be a worry to me.

Do you feed him a dry food for sensitive skin-or maybe try a BARF diet removing all preservatives.

If this is stressing both of you out I would try drugs as a last resort.

He sounds like such a sad dog.

[graysmum]

Firstly I feel for you this is very stressful for you.

I would have the blood tests to rule out any problems in that area and settle your mind

I would go with what Tdierikx said and get his eyes checked maybe by an eye specialist. A friends dog went slowly blind at around 7 years and she had some strange issues.

As for the weight issue I give our rescues that are underweight some chicken mince as its quite fatty they gain well on it and their coats also improve just introduce it slowly.

Good luck

[Shelby]

It may well be thyroid. Do Shiba's suffer from thyroid? Just asking as I am not familiar with the breed. You could also email Dr Jean Dodds with his symptoms - have heard that she is very good at answering emails. Sorry I haven't got a contact email addy but just do a google search and she will come up.

Could you get crates and both boys sleep inside in a crate each? As he is getting older, he may be feeling the cold more.

[jrm88]

I would absoloutely get bloods run There are also medications that can be used for many behavioral situations, you need to find a vet that is experienced with these drugs and behavioral problems for it to work though.

I know alot of people arent overly keen on medications but i think if it gets both of you back to being happy, it would be a good step :p

[sas]

Sorry to hear you're going through this. It's not too late to crate train. Can you speak to your Vet or a Holistic Vet about something to take the edge off?

I personaly use Valerian which I find very helpful on the dogs that just need a little help.

Can you access a dog run with a roof?

I'd be inclined to get the Vet to do some bloods and urine or whatever it is they would run to check that everything generally is ok with the dog, including thyroid.

Edited May 14, 2010 by sas