Bad Problem With My Chow... Would Like Some Opinions

[spirrall]

Hi guys,

I recently took my chow to the vet because she had what it seemed like an infected eye. I thought it might have been because I accidently rubbed into her eye when I washed he face with a towel that morning. My vet said that it was not anything related to that. In fact my chow had a severe bilateral entropian, she was also suffering from conjunctivitis and mucropurulent discharge. My vet said "Sorry to say but your chow was very poorly bred" because this condition is usually only hereditory at her age (Chowie's only 5 months). She noted that this problem happened a while ago and Chowie was in pain for a long long time. I've contacted my breeder in regards to this issue. I trust her when she told me that she knew nothing of it at the time. It's going to be an expensive process now and in the future. Because the condition of her eye is really bad now, I might have to get the surgery done at the eye specialist. She will be having surgery asap but there will be more to come in the future as this process is often repeated. My first surgery would easily go over $1000.

Also, I bought my chow from a breeder in NZ and I am thinking that if there are any eye problem that was noted at the time, Chowie probably wouldnt be able to get on the plane.

So, I suppose I want some opinion on this situation. If you were a breeder or an owner, what would you do in this situation? I would like to be reasonable and negotiate something in terms of fiances as it will be a very expensive process.

Thanks a lot for your contribution.

Cheers

Yvonne

[Sandra777]

Firstly, as I understand it certain families of Chows do have eye issues largely because of the peculiar diamond shaped eye required in the breed standard. I assume that the parents of your puppy have eye clearance certificates for whatever conditions are prevelant in the breed and that you specifically asked about the occurance of entropian in the family?

The pre-export check has nothing to do with this sort of health check, they are checking for signs of disease and conditions which might cause the dog to be distressed/endangered on the plane (heart problems for example)

Not all hereditary/genetic conditions are easily controlled by not breeding from affected parents - for example 2 dogs with very low HD scores can produce pups with very high scores; and not all genetic conditions are apparent at a young age, so if the breeder used dogs from families with no eye problems and your puppy was fine at a young age then they would have no reason to believe they were sending you a problem puppy, so may well be completely truthful when they say they had no knowledge that your pup had issues.

The first time you noticed any problems with your puppy was the morning you took her to the vet?

[spirrall]

Firstly, as I understand it certain families of Chows do have eye issues largely because of the peculiar diamond shaped eye required in the breed standard. I assume that the parents of your puppy have eye clearance certificates for whatever conditions are prevelant in the breed and that you specifically asked about the occurance of entropian in the family?

The pre-export check has nothing to do with this sort of health check, they are checking for signs of disease and conditions which might cause the dog to be distressed/endangered on the plane (heart problems for example)

Not all hereditary/genetic conditions are easily controlled by not breeding from affected parents - for example 2 dogs with very low HD scores can produce pups with very high scores; and not all genetic conditions are apparent at a young age, so if the breeder used dogs from families with no eye problems and your puppy was fine at a young age then they would have no reason to believe they were sending you a problem puppy, so may well be completely truthful when they say they had no knowledge that your pup had issues.

The first time you noticed any problems with your puppy was the morning you took her to the vet?

Hi, thanks for your reply. I suppose I didn't ask for the eye certificates of parents. I did however ask if her eyes were clear and if she had any health problems.The reply was healthy and clear eyes. Not sure if it helps, but my vet said one of her eyes were very cloudy and it might have been cloudy for a long time. Btw, I've only had this chow for 3 weeks. When she came to us, she did have unusually smaller eyes and sometimes she would look at us with her eyes closed. I checked the breed standard and believed that chow just had super small eyes that could be barely seen. At the beginning my mum did comment on her blindness. When we neared her, she would bark at us, however after hearing our voices, she would establish that we were her owners. TWo weeks after getting her, we also noticed a lot of discharge from her eyes. Again, I didn't take much notice as just thought it was regular discharge. The third week (which is yesteryday) she did actually get an inflammation on a preexisting condition.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Yvonne

Edited May 14, 2010 by spirrall

[Bjelkier]

Hmmm dosn't sound too good.

If you are in contact with the breeder would you be able to see the parents eye certs? (I would be curious more then anything else)

Secondly I would be getting a second oppion.

I'm not saying that your vet might be dodgy, I just think when it comes to possible issues like this it's always better to have a second oppinion.

[Dogs4Fun]

Have you contacted your breeder to discuss the situation?

[Guest DBT]

I would just like to say that many years ago i adopted 2 adult Chow from horrendous living conditions, & BOTH needed surgery for entropian & ectropian. Expensive ,yes...but in my case , both dogs recovered brilliantly from their surgery and went on to have many wonderful pain free years with us. The red boy in particular, is to this date , the most wonderful animal i have ever known. Sadly he passed a couple of years ago, and it was impossible for me to get another Chow , as i am so worried it would not come close to our Sunny boy

[spirrall]

Hmmm dosn't sound too good.

If you are in contact with the breeder would you be able to see the parents eye certs? (I would be curious more then anything else)

Secondly I would be getting a second oppion.

I'm not saying that your vet might be dodgy, I just think when it comes to possible issues like this it's always better to have a second oppinion.

Hi Wolfsong, how's mistral lately? Yes, my vet referred me to an eye specialist to get a second opinion. This was mainly to see if the specialist needed to do the surgery or whether it was ok for the clinic to do the surgery. So, I suppose I'll get the specialist to double check about the condition. In terms of certificates, I kind of feel a little uneasy and intrusive in asking for the certificates especially right now... but yeah, I should have done it earlier.

Have you contacted your breeder to discuss the situation?

Yes, I have just contacted her. She asked for a vet report and I just gave it to her so she can forward it onto her vet. I'm hoping to get the eye specialist and fingers crossed it's not as bad as they all make it out to be.

I would just like to say that many years ago i adopted 2 adult Chow from horrendous living conditions, & BOTH needed surgery for entropian & ectropian. Expensive ,yes...but in my case , both dogs recovered brilliantly from their surgery and went on to have many wonderful pain free years with us. The red boy in particular, is to this date , the most wonderful animal i have ever known. Sadly he passed a couple of years ago, and it was impossible for me to get another Chow , as i am so worried it would not come close to our Sunny boy

Thanks a lot for your comment. I'm feeling a little better about the surgery. Most likely I'll have to do surgery again because Chowie's still a baby now but hopefully the lucky second time would be a last. I'm sorry for your loss. I totally understand what it is like to lose a friend. Sometimes, I just look at all my dogs not knowing what it would be like without them. But you know, when you're ready do get another chow. I'm sure nothing could match up to your sunny boy but this new one maybe another sunny boy. I was scared of the same thing when I got Barney in replace of my RIP Ben because Pudding was really upset. I was scared he couldn't match up to Ben. But again, he was another sunny boy like Ben.

[Christina]

If the breeder has eye certificates there is no reason why they can not be scanned into the computer & emailed to you, or faxed. If you were told that certificates were done it is not intrusive to ask for them given what has happened.

It may help you to make a decision as to what you feel should be negotiated however it does take 2 to negotiate.

Good luck with your dog, hope recovery is good.

[Guest Ams]

Shar pei are believed to have been bred from the Chow Chow and are prone to entropian and it is not something that can be tested for (that I am aware of). Some puppies need their eyes tacked regularly until they reach about 9 months of age and then entropian surgery is done to correct it. Sometimes more than one surgery is needed as the skin folds continue to grow as the dog grows and the condition reoccurs. Some dogs don't develop entropian until they are adults (sometimes even 5 or 6 years old).

Tricin ointment will provide relief to the eyes or amacin if there is an infection (but only use this after a vet check as using Amacin can make it worse if tests to the cornea are not done first). Often after entropian surgery is done the damage to the cornea will partially repair itself and the dog can lead a normal life with just slightly less than normal vision.

Is it just entropian or does your puppy have microthalmia (small eyes)? This is a different condition which leads to entropian being a bigger problem since the eyes are not big enough to stop the skin folds from falling into the eye. If your pup does have microthalmia then yes you will most likely need to have multiple surgeries over the life of the dog.

I currently have a pei in care that has microthalmia and entropian. She is only young and has already had two ops. She will need another in about a month's time. She is can only see shadows in her left eye and has limited vision in her right but she gets around just fine, is the most delightful girl and is currently on foster with a Husky and five cats. She adjusts incredibly well to each new environment. She simply traces her way around on the first day and memorises where everything is. At the moment she plays zoomies each night with a ragdoll cat so her quality of life is really not affected at all.

I am more than happy for you to ring me if you wish to have some moral support.

[badboyz]

Hi Spirral. Entropion does not necessarily indicate bad breeding. With a pup that young, I would look at doing eye tacking initially, which should not cost a great deal, coupled with a suitable ointment. Not all vets will do eye tacking so you will have to ask around. Perhaps Peibe could recommend someone in NSW.

Here are some links that may help you:

http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/entropion.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_5077782_recognize-...opion-dogs.html

http://www.drjwv.com/faq/?view=12&name=Eye Tacking

[goldchow]

Hi Spirall please phone Marg Turner (Hongchau listed on the chow breeder pages on Dogz) who could possibly direct you to a vet famiiliar with the chow breed.

If Marg is unavailable please PM me for another good chow breeders ph no in Campbelltown.

As has already been mentioned entropian is not necessarily an indication of poor breeding, it is a problem within the breed and unfortunately can present quite unexpectedly although from what you have described and at your puppys age it doesn't sound good. Since any chow showing signs of entropian in the show ring is automatically sent to the end of the line or disqualified, Australian breeders have worked very hard to try to eliminate entropian as far as possible from their lines and its really not being seen very much now. Quite often it isn't the shape of the eye that is at fault but the way the fold of skin across the forehead sits and which can actually push the eyelashes downwards onto the eye and the vet needs to be able to tell the difference.

I would strongly urge you to seek a second opinion, preferably from a vet who is famillair with the breed. Most vets are very quick to recommend surgery without trying ointments etc and by treating the conjunctivitis and any inflammation first before making a definite prognosis. Vets who know the breed will try to avoid eye surgery before 12 to 14 months of age due to the rapid growth of the chow head however if the eyes are in danger of being damaged and surgery has to be done, only a small amount of tissue should be taken out and sometimes a second entropian op is done later when the chow is 14 to 18 months old if required. For the vet to take too much out at this age could result in the chow having ectopian which is even worse and irreversable.

With a good vet and this attended to properly there is no reason that your Chow puppy will not go on to be a wonderful member of your family but I am very sorry that you have this problem with what is obviously your first Chow. Its not a good start that I would be happy with if I was the breeder.

[goldchow]

Meant to add too in reply to Badboyz suggestion of eye tacking that its probably too late for this. I have had this done with several chow puppies some years ago and which was very successful however they were under 12 weeks. It would certainly be something to run by the vet though if they felt it could help. Some chow breeders I know automatically have all their puppies eyes tacked now however its not something I like doing unless I felt it was required.

[spirrall]

Oh dear, I haven't read this thread for a while as I had not expected anyone to reply after a while. Anyways just a quick update: Chowie's has already done her surgery and price of it went over $3000 (this is a lot considering I've spent $3000 on her and basically I've just justed $6000 easily within this month). However, I believe it was worthwhile because she had it done at an eye specialist who needed surgery on all four of her eyelids, both eyes. Yep, tacking was too late because it was really severe and she was sent to have the operation the next day because it was an emergency.

Shar pei are believed to have been bred from the Chow Chow and are prone to entropian and it is not something that can be tested for (that I am aware of). Some puppies need their eyes tacked regularly until they reach about 9 months of age and then entropian surgery is done to correct it. Sometimes more than one surgery is needed as the skin folds continue to grow as the dog grows and the condition reoccurs. Some dogs don't develop entropian until they are adults (sometimes even 5 or 6 years old).

Tricin ointment will provide relief to the eyes or amacin if there is an infection (but only use this after a vet check as using Amacin can make it worse if tests to the cornea are not done first). Often after entropian surgery is done the damage to the cornea will partially repair itself and the dog can lead a normal life with just slightly less than normal vision.

Is it just entropian or does your puppy have microthalmia (small eyes)? This is a different condition which leads to entropian being a bigger problem since the eyes are not big enough to stop the skin folds from falling into the eye. If your pup does have microthalmia then yes you will most likely need to have multiple surgeries over the life of the dog.

I currently have a pei in care that has microthalmia and entropian. She is only young and has already had two ops. She will need another in about a month's time. She is can only see shadows in her left eye and has limited vision in her right but she gets around just fine, is the most delightful girl and is currently on foster with a Husky and five cats. She adjusts incredibly well to each new environment. She simply traces her way around on the first day and memorises where everything is. At the moment she plays zoomies each night with a ragdoll cat so her quality of life is really not affected at all.

I am more than happy for you to ring me if you wish to have some moral support.

Hi, I'm not sure too about the small eyes and I've forgotten to ask the vet. However, I'll attach a picture of her on the bottom of this link and see what you think.

Hi Spirral. Entropion does not necessarily indicate bad breeding. With a pup that young, I would look at doing eye tacking initially, which should not cost a great deal, coupled with a suitable ointment. Not all vets will do eye tacking so you will have to ask around. Perhaps Peibe could recommend someone in NSW.

Here are some links that may help you:

http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/entropion.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_5077782_recognize-...opion-dogs.html

http://www.drjwv.com/faq/?view=12&name=Eye Tacking

Thanks a lot. The information was extremely helpful. Too bad I hadn't had a read of it before I had done the operation but I think the operation was inevitable.

Hi Spirall please phone Marg Turner (Hongchau listed on the chow breeder pages on Dogz) who could possibly direct you to a vet famiiliar with the chow breed.

If Marg is unavailable please PM me for another good chow breeders ph no in Campbelltown.

As has already been mentioned entropian is not necessarily an indication of poor breeding, it is a problem within the breed and unfortunately can present quite unexpectedly although from what you have described and at your puppys age it doesn't sound good. Since any chow showing signs of entropian in the show ring is automatically sent to the end of the line or disqualified, Australian breeders have worked very hard to try to eliminate entropian as far as possible from their lines and its really not being seen very much now. Quite often it isn't the shape of the eye that is at fault but the way the fold of skin across the forehead sits and which can actually push the eyelashes downwards onto the eye and the vet needs to be able to tell the difference.

I would strongly urge you to seek a second opinion, preferably from a vet who is famillair with the breed. Most vets are very quick to recommend surgery without trying ointments etc and by treating the conjunctivitis and any inflammation first before making a definite prognosis. Vets who know the breed will try to avoid eye surgery before 12 to 14 months of age due to the rapid growth of the chow head however if the eyes are in danger of being damaged and surgery has to be done, only a small amount of tissue should be taken out and sometimes a second entropian op is done later when the chow is 14 to 18 months old if required. For the vet to take too much out at this age could result in the chow having ectopian which is even worse and irreversable.

With a good vet and this attended to properly there is no reason that your Chow puppy will not go on to be a wonderful member of your family but I am very sorry that you have this problem with what is obviously your first Chow. Its not a good start that I would be happy with if I was the breeder.

Meant to add too in reply to Badboyz suggestion of eye tacking that its probably too late for this. I have had this done with several chow puppies some years ago and which was very successful however they were under 12 weeks. It would certainly be something to run by the vet though if they felt it could help. Some chow breeders I know automatically have all their puppies eyes tacked now however its not something I like doing unless I felt it was required.

Hi thanks alot for your input. This was really helpful to get a second opinion. Basically, yes the eye specialist I was referred to, didn't want to do the surgery at first. But after having a look at her eyes, it seems that she has lots of ulcers and damage on all four of her eyelids. The eye specialist also said there will be permanent damage and her eyes will impaired in the future, however he said that it won't mean much changes for Chowie because she seems to have had the problem for a while. He wanted to do tacking which he did on another sharpei pup last week. However he said she needed to do the surgery immediately as her condition was really bad and possibly he might have to do it again in the future (just like you said, her eyes might continue to fold as she gets larger). I just got a call from the eye specialist and it appears that the surgery was really successful and Chowie's going along fine. I should have read this thread a bit earlier to seek someone who knew a bit more about chows. But I think I did the right thing in having her surgery done at an eye specialist. I hope this whooping $3000+ surgery was a good idea. Fingers crossed and I hope they know what they are doing.

Yeh there's a picture of Chowie which I got from the breeder. Her eyes do seem a little bit closed before I got her...

[goldchow]

Hi Spirrall

Thanks for the update and really hope all those dollars its cost you have given Chowie a first class cosmetic repair job. If there are signs of ulcers and damage at her young age the problem has been evident for some time. Have you contacted the breeder at all to keep them updated? You do realize don't you that you are entitled to request at least a partial refund because you have paid for a top quality puppy which is now strictly pet quality only and must not be bred from.

One can't tell much from a photo but Chowie does look like a lovely puppy and I really hope once you've recovered from this hurdle she goes on to give you many years of happy companionship.

[matilda1]

Hi Spirrall

Thanks for the update and really hope all those dollars its cost you have given Chowie a first class cosmetic repair job. If there are signs of ulcers and damage at her young age the problem has been evident for some time. Have you contacted the breeder at all to keep them updated? You do realize don't you that you are entitled to request at least a partial refund because you have paid for a top quality puppy which is now strictly pet quality only and must not be bred from.

One can't tell much from a photo but Chowie does look like a lovely puppy and I really hope once you've recovered from this hurdle she goes on to give you many years of happy companionship.

Hi, I am new to the forum, and new to the whole 'breeder' thing. I am however a Emergency and Critical care vet nurse so I was reading this thread with interest. We also have an Ophthalmologist working out of our clinic once a week.

I hope Chowie improves and recovers quickly for you, he is obviously well loved and cared for. and he looks like a very nice dog.

Are 'buyers' really entitiled to a refund from breeders if something like this happens down the track after purchase?

I am not arguing this comment at all, I would have NO CLUE about this, it just surprises me. Is the breeder responisble for this even months after purchase? I would have thought that after purchase and perhaps the initial 2-3 week health guarantee that some breeders give, it's no longer a responsability they are liable for.

I see many dogs (and cats) with hereditary or breed related health rpoblems, and it's just unfortunately part of those breeds. One has to do their homework (which in this case was clearly done) and then make a decision if you are willing to take the chances with that particular breed with those particular tendancies.

Can a breeder really be responsible for this down the track?

I have my dog insured, as I know what kind of conditions she is predisposed to, I viewed the parents and asked for hip scoring, PRA testing and eye testing of the parents. That's all you ca do really.....what happens as she matures in my mind is not on the breeder.

Again, I am just curious about this, in no way am I implying any ill feelings towrads your post or you in any way.

Edited June 4, 2010 by BellaDonna

[nobul]

Glad all went well on the little bloke

In answer to BellaDonna is basically yes and no lol.

So many problems in breeds and crossbreds are recessive and therefore can not be guarenteed free of the defect. But in a court of law things can go either way and both ways i have seen. But is usually either way ends up in court at a great expense to both.

I as a breeder do not deliberately set out to sell sick or deformed puppies but things can happen that we can not see. I always sell with 6 weeks free pet insurance and strongly recommend the buyers continues this. But sadly there are many breeders and i use the term losely who do not care.

[Cat]

I have no advice, but I just had to say that your chow is very cute!

[goldchow]

Hi Cat, at this puppys young age (5 months and I understand had only been with its new owner a short time) and with eyes so badly affected with entropian to have caused ulceration etc its obvious this puppys eyes have been badly affected for some time. If Spirrall paid $3,000 for this puppy he has paid top dollar and at this young age I believe an 'ethical' breeder would offer a refund to at least reduce the cost of the puppy to that which he would have paid for a pet which in effect is what this puppy now is, unable to be shown and should never be used for breeding.

Generally Pet Insurances will not cover what is termed a heriditary problem such as entropian.

There is no simple answer to your question Cat, reputable breeders who do all the correct things such as all the health testing available to their breed can still produce a puppy with one or two of the genetic problems known within that breed however the chances of that happening is considerably less if the breeder continuously health checks all breeding stock. Once a puppy goes to his new home, no matter how much information or guidelines the new owner is given the care, diet and excercise provided in that new home can either make or break that puppy. Breeders cannot be held responsible for health problems created by mismanagement, poor diet and incorrect excercise.

Spiralls case is different in that the puppy was so young and so badly affected and which could not have been attributed to the puppys care in his new home. If Chowie had developed the problem 12 months or later then yes, it can and does happen to the best of breeders and prospective new owners need to be aware that this, and other problems, are in the breed and no matter how carefully bred a Chow puppy is, some of these health problems such as entropian can present at any time through no-ones fault.

[Cat]

I just said he was cute

[BJean]

Oh dear, I haven't read this thread for a while as I had not expected anyone to reply after a while. Anyways just a quick update: Chowie's has already done her surgery and price of it went over $3000 (this is a lot considering I've spent $3000 on her and basically I've just justed $6000 easily within this month). However, I believe it was worthwhile because she had it done at an eye specialist who needed surgery on all four of her eyelids, both eyes. Yep, tacking was too late because it was really severe and she was sent to have the operation the next day because it was an emergency.

very expensive.

Entropian surgery for a 5 month old Anatolian puppy cost $600.

What was involved in Chowie's surgery?

Re inheritence:

Both sire and dam had no entopion or history of producing entropion.

the puppy in question however had one of the biggest boofiest ASD heads I'd ever seen,

spec vet thinks entropion resulted from skin / head structure of the individual puppy.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lilli