Thuggies Doggies

[zayda_asher]

Zayda I'm sorry you have been offended and I do know you have batted for both sides, so to you and others who have I apologize for that. I also love the Am Staff and did not wish any of this to happen. But It also hurts me too to see comments made about the APBT In this way. I mean have a look at the title to begin with.

I agree that we need to unite, I always have, but how Is this possible when people are always going to class "us" as second class or Inferior because our dogs aren't papered.

Deep down I think you should know that I never meant to offend anyone who has stood up for both sides. It Is hard not to get emotional over It though

Yes, I know you didn't mean to offend me, but I think in a way that actually makes it worse... See the thing that upsets me the most is seeing people do exactly what they are angry at "amstaff people" or "ANKC people" for doing at the same time that they're upset about it and saying "don't do it to us!!" As the old saw goes: "two wrongs don't make a right!"

We all need to take a step back and look at what we type before we hit send and if a post makes you angry, go away and calm down first before you respond, so that you are not responding in kind... We only make it worse if we don't and solve nothing. And a rational, well developed argument will make your point look far, far, better.

People are fearful and angry, but they will only loose the supporters that they have if they continue to bite the hand that tries to help... that's what makes me really sad, because its the dogs that ultimately suffer.

Just for the record, there's a group of mostly AmStaff owners working on incorporating a responsible dog owner's group in Perth to work for all dogs and their owners, regardless of breed or cross. You wont see most of them on here, because their too busy getting to work done, so before people assume that the people on forums speak for all people of a breed, they should think again.

Edited May 18, 2010 by zayda_asher

[Robbi]

Unfortunately, whilest we are arguing over Pitbull/Amstaff are they the same or not, the legislators that are trying to ban them both must be rubbing their hands together with glee.

ALL dog owners must unite against BSL as none of us know which breed will be next to face canine genocide as once the Pit Bull has been eradicated you can be sure that another breed will be on the hit list. I dont own either breed but I am unwilling to watch a breed be destroyed by politicians and the media without at least trying to lend a hand, unfortunately the media is unwilling to hear any pro Pit Bull points of view but surely we can continue trying to help. How? I dont really know but one thing is certain we must stop fighting each other and start fighting BSL.

At the end of the day all dogs are woth fighting for not one breed more so than another.

[zayda_asher]

At the end of the day all dogs are woth fighting for not one breed more so than another.

Yes, exactly.

[ima barka]

if you actually read my footnote you will see i do think there are enclaves of pure breed APBTs.

The problem, to my way of thinking, is there is no real standard that defines them ALL as a recognisable breed. Except for the AST of course.

There are so many different ''varieties'', all claiming to be pure breeds, all accepted onto the various ''registers'' as such,

How can you really expect any rational, knowledgable dog person to take the ''pure breed'' claim seriously. Or rather, pure breed, bred to a standard.

Check this out, one denying the other. Fatties that are someones idea of the pit bull, the others are the border line emaciated ''sports models."

''Pure breeds'' ? I bet all the breeders say "Mine is''.

Only one handsome speciman among them, & that could be an AST anyhow. They are duel registered at the UKC. The claytons register.

The rest are bloody awful when you get right down too it.

Turn the sound on.

BTW, I don't have Amstaffs. Just thought I'd better clear that up.

Edited May 18, 2010 by ima barka

[WreckitWhippet]

Reading the first post did rekindle memories of my first awareness of the APBT.

I do recall the sudden prominence of the breed. I do recall it being promoted solely & blatanly as a the baddest of the bad asses & I do recall the seemingly implausible prices being demanded, & apparently achieved.

I also remember the almost daily expansion of column inches in the for sale sections of the classifieds & wondering where did all these dogs come from? If you believe these were all ethical responsible breeder ads you must also believe in the tooth fairy.

& I remember the trickle turning to a torrent of dog attacks attributed to these dogs.

Not just run of the mill dog bite stories on page 16. Front page banners of prolonged, vicious attacks that left people & animals severely injured &, sadly, some fatal. It wasn't unusal for the victims to be the dogs owner or a family member. Whether these were fair & unbias accounts is immaterial, these dogs were now firmly implanted in the publics psyche as demons. A runaway train was in motion.

I also remember the warnings given by the applying of restriction for the keeping of this breed. All of which were ignored.

I didn't, in my wildest dreams, envisage anything as obnoxious as a B.S.L however. But given the luxury of hindsight, I guess it really was inevitable.

Now the rant,

As a breeder/owner/exhibitor of recognised, registered pure breeds I feel no obligation to link arms with for what all intents & purposes is the ''breed'' responsible, stand on the tracks & defy this runaway train called the B.S.L.

My first obligation is to ANKC registered pure breeds.

Once our position is secure & our charges are safe, then we can turn our energies to a derailment.

I know this line of thought isn't P.C. here but it is honest.

& ''we'' really don't deserve the guilt trip being laid on ''us'' over this issue either, rather, ''we'' deserve an apology for the aggravation now being felt right across dogdom.

Footnote.

You can argue that APBTs are a pure breed until you are blue in face. But the fact is it's not recognised by any bona fide, internationally recognised, affiliated pure breed registry in the world. Not even it's country of origins.

My opinion as to why, for what it's worth, is because it really doesn't have a legitmate standard. A standard that actually defines it as a stand alone breed.

There is no doubt there criterior meeting pure breeds are out there, but, depending where you are they can vary by 40cms in height & 40 kgs in weight & still be accepted as ''Pure Breed APBTs." Which is ridiculous, in a bona fide pure breed sense.

Another footnote.

When I read some of the so called history of the APBT offered here the words of the song "'It Necessarily So" boom out in background.

Consider the possibility

Did the Americans renamed the original ''staffy'', brought to their shores by English immigrants, as the APBT, & the APBT people then renamed the APBT as the Staffordshire Terrier to gain AKC registration & the AKC then renamed the Staffordshire Terrier as the American Staffordshire Terrier to distigquish it from the SBT.

Absolutely - full circle.

I cannot belive you doubt the fact that it is a pure bred dog, and standards are just something to aim for when people are breeding, judges all judge differently and their opinions vary greatly... do you forget that the Amstaff standard was based on a Colby dog, one of the oldest bloodlines in pitbull history is the standard for the Amstaff..!!! are you going to say that only an amstaff is pure because the ANKC says so, and forget the UKC, AKC, ADBA, APBR etc..

sure there are dubious breeders out there and it's these people that have been the downfall of the breed not the dog. it has never been the dogs fault, but human mistreatment. Shame on you for blaming a dog for all of our dog woes.

An apology, how rude, if it wasn't for all the elitest snobs in 'dogdom' we could've fought this a long time ago, but no they all wantedto wash their hands of the 'pitbull'.

Maybe you should re read my comments. You have gone off half cocked accusing me of things I haven't said. What I have said is what I believe. What I have said is fact.

If being a ANKC registered breeder/owner/exhibitor that resents my breed being place at risk because of the anti social behavior of a group of yobbos who besmirched the entire canine community with their anti social dogs makes me an elitist snob. So be it.

Stay off the tracks, there's a train coming. It's the pit bull special & it doesn't care who it runs over.

There's plenty of other ANKC breeders/owners/exhibitors who feel the same way as you do.

My opinion is that we should be looking after and securing the future of our ANKC recognised breeds. As someone else said today, we should " concentrate on their breed's strengths, and not join the losing Team Pitbull"

[chrisjc]

ima barka, why take that aproach? how about you work with the APBT owners who want to make a difference.

personally the amstaff was doomed here before the incidents of the last three months were even dreamed up.

just look at the trading post and the paper ads advertising them.

just remember Colbys "primo" was an APBT and so were the other five dogs used to develop the standard.

so in your form of thinking we can say the amstaff is a breed started by mutts.

which would make them mutts.

now you are the one who can argue till your blue in the face.

Edited May 18, 2010 by chrisjc

[RottnBullies]

There will be no more dual registered dogs at the claytons register as you so call It ima barka.

Fact: Pit Bulls are on of the oldest and one of the purest breeds around.

Fact: Pit Bulls have been a registered breed long before the existence of many AKC ANKC etc breeds.

But enough of that, as people only see what they want to see.

My opinion as has always been Is that we need to look after and fight for ALL dogs regardless of breed. Unlike some of the selfish ones here who dare to continue and slander the APBT at every chance they get.

Abandoning ship In this case Is most certainly only for the gutless ones, even though they may think that they are the smart ones.

[WreckitWhippet]

There is no safe side and why should the ANKC breeders/owner/exhibitors apologise or feel bad for looking after their own. The pit bull is already subject to BSL in all but a couple of the states/territories in this country, so far the ANKC breeds are not. Why waste the energy and the resources on the pit bulls, the focus should be on preventing ANKC breeds from being added to any of the lists.

When that is done and the future of the recognised breeds is safe, then maybe we can look at those breeds that are currently restricted.

The CCCQ believe in putting as much distance between themselves and the Pit Bulls as possible, as did Dogs NSW when they negotiated and secured the future of the ANKC bull breeds in NSW.

[poodlefan]

RnB:

Fact: Pit Bulls are on of the oldest and one of the purest breeds around.

How old is the breed?

[APBT]

There is no safe side and why should the ANKC breeders/owner/exhibitors apologise or feel bad for looking after their own. The pit bull is already subject to BSL in all but a couple of the states/territories in this country, so far the ANKC breeds are not. Why waste the energy and the resources on the pit bulls, the focus should be on preventing ANKC breeds from being added to any of the lists.

When that is done and the future of the recognised breeds is safe, then maybe we can look at those breeds that are currently restricted.

The CCCQ believe in putting as much distance between themselves and the Pit Bulls as possible, as did Dogs NSW when they negotiated and secured the future of the ANKC bull breeds in NSW.

Why should anyone feel bad for looking after their own? What becasue you think yours are better then mine?

Go preach your ANKC rubbish elsewere, fact is there are always going to be all sorts of dogs around, purebred or mutts either way people are still going to fight for them. Go put your "resources and energy" into that war before you continue your one on the APBT.

[chrisjc]

jp colbys records go as far back as 1805, from there on every dog bred by the family has been fully recorded.

with a registry? no, but recorded nonetheless, lou still has hand written peds from this era and printed peds from 1825.

just a bit of useless info you can read it how you please.

[RottnBullies]

RnB:

Fact: Pit Bulls are on of the oldest and one of the purest breeds around.

How old is the breed?

Written Pit Bull pedigrees date Into the late 1700's as far as I know,

and I did mean they are "one" of the oldest breeds around. Lots of breeds

still yet to reach the 100yr mark.

[geo]

My opinion is that we should be looking after and securing the future of our ANKC recognised breeds. As someone else said today, we should " concentrate on their breed's strengths, and not join the losing Team Pitbull"

SBT123, are ANKC the only important dogs?, by going it alone aren't you then leaving all the other dogs behind like some lesser animal or are all dogs not on a register unworthy of you support?

I've said a million times we should all band together for all dogs, why wont you help? what has the pitbull ever done to you? or are championship points and perfect gait more important..? do you think that having a piece of paper makes your dog better.? Where do you put temperment on your breeding priorities or is it all about looks? as that is what BSL is

I admittedly am not a fan of SWFs, however if they were in the firing line i would stand up and be counted, if one was being belted on the streets i would say something.. if they'd been persecuted and mistreated like the poor pitbull i would want to help them. People have made this mess not dogs.

If your dog got misidentified i would help your dog too.

[Black Bronson]

We do have to be careful and not have any more fluff up's that places other breeds under the BSL spotlight. The situation that happened in QLD with the Amstaff was just stupid, what were they thinking

I'm sure they were thinking about saving their dog and fighting BSL, they've sure saved a lot of dogs which is more than most people on here, and by no means thought about putting the amstaff in the spotlight, that was the GCCC so build a bridge and get over it.

Nothing for me to get over Geo, I don't own restricted breeds

[geo]

We do have to be careful and not have any more fluff up's that places other breeds under the BSL spotlight. The situation that happened in QLD with the Amstaff was just stupid, what were they thinking

I'm sure they were thinking about saving their dog and fighting BSL, they've sure saved a lot of dogs which is more than most people on here, and by no means thought about putting the amstaff in the spotlight, that was the GCCC so build a bridge and get over it.

Nothing for me to get over Geo, I don't own restricted breeds

what's funny about that? do you even own a dog?

[ima barka]

In a threatening situation involving ''family''

Secure your position, save your own first.

Anyone have a problem with that?

For all those spruiking how old the APBT breed is, the dogs your are talking about are actually the ancestors of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier brought over from the U.K. by English immigrants., the Americans merely gave them a ''local'' name. Pit dog pit bul & many variations on the themel.

Most of the APBT ''hero'' dogs are of the same lineage. Staffies wrapped in the Stars & Stripes. As was Pete the Pup.

But a question that does perplex me. If indeed the breed has been around since the 1700's (that's a joke...right?) & is Americas favouite dog, why hasn't it ever been recognised as a pure breed? Surely after 300 years someone would have got it right by now.

Don't mention the the UKC either, it was raised as pit bull registry because the AKC, with good reason, wouldn't buckle & give the pit bull pure breed status.

Chauncy Bennett wanted a fancy pedigree paper for his dog so he started his own registery. & a profitable BIG business it is and all. That doesn't mean Bennets Ring wasn't a ''pure breed''. Probably was. But rather the breed as a whole, has so many different variationa it didn't qualify as a legitimate PURE breed. Still doesn't.

& the rest of the so called registries are only self interested clubs, so don't bother spinning them out either.

[Robbi]

Nothing for me to get over Geo, I don't own restricted breeds

This is the wrong attitude, and a very selfish perspective. We are all dog lovers and should stand up for the rights of all dogs regardless of their pedigree or lack of. I love all dogs and I will voice my objection to bsl to anybody who will listen.

Black Bronson, I hope your breed of choice never becomes a target for bsl as you are alienating the people who would be ready to help you.

[ima barka]

Two farmers. One industrious, the other a bit of a muck up.

Weather bureau issues a severe weather warning.

Industrious heads to his tractor, muck up heads to the pub.

When muck up finally realises how bad this storm is, he rings his mate

''Indi, help me save my crop''

''Sure mucky, just as soon as I have finished saving mine''

[GeckoTree]

"Thuggies Doggies"

Good one dwayne pype, with a heading like that thread sure would head down the drain pipe!.

Bizzare post.

Edited May 19, 2010 by GeckoTree

[geo]

In a threatening situation involving ''family''

Secure your position, save your own first.

Anyone have a problem with that?

Don't mention the the UKC either, it was raised as pit bull registry because the AKC, with good reason, wouldn't buckle & give the pit bull pure breed status.

Chauncy Bennett wanted a fancy pedigree paper for his dog so he started his own registery. & a profitable BIG business it is and all. That doesn't mean Bennets Ring wasn't a ''pure breed''. Probably was. But rather the breed as a whole, has so many different variationa it didn't qualify as a legitimate PURE breed. Still doesn't.

& the rest of the so called registries are only self interested clubs, so don't bother spinning them out either.

ima, the BSL picture is bigger than that of just the pitbull, this is what i'm trying to get across.

You can argue that it's not a pure breed, but then you'd be saying that amstaffs are also not a pure breed..? I was of the understanding that many many years of registered bloodlines, papered pedigrees would make them a pure breed. (hey i could be wrong). What on earth do you think they are if they're not purebred? you think that millions of dogs that look the same is just a coincidence? Oh the AKC wouldn't buckle but they'll open the stud books to them!!!

Anyway i really don't care that your think they're not purbred, it's really not the issue on this part of the forum, and it doesn't bother me one little bit if i had a mongrel cross or a purebred. I'd just like to get everyone against BSL.