Main Register? - Limited Register?

[dwayne pype]

There are a couple of interesting points that became obvious from reading the ''Limited Register" topics.

One is that ''entrepeneurs'' are making a killing preying on the gullible.

I find it hard to believe someone would part with $2500 for anything at all without doing at least some rudimentary rësearch on the ''item'' &/or the vendor.

Yet people seem happy to throw away their hard earned for a (usually) poorly bred puppy simply because it carries a diluted gene. Most peculiar.

The people could have bought two beautifully bred stunners from an ethical, reputable, registered breeder & had change. & quite a fair lump of change at that

Secondly, those threads make it patently obvious a Main Register, registered dog is indeed a much more valuable asset than its Limited Register counterpart & as such breeders are well within their rights to charge more for them. As a matter of fact, they are silly not to.

It isn't so much about the money, it's about protecting the integrity of pure breeds. Why cheapen the Main Register by giving Main Register dogs away for a pet price? Beats the heck out of me.

One good thing to emerge from that thread tho is the dog in question isn't on the main register.

So that was a good outcome.

[lappiemum]

There are a couple of interesting points that became obvious from reading the ''Limited Register" topics.

One is that ''entrepeneurs'' are making a killing preying on the gullible.

I find it hard to believe someone would part with $2500 for anything at all without doing at least some rudimentary rësearch on the ''item'' &/or the vendor.

Yet people seem happy to throw away their hard earned for a (usually) poorly bred puppy simply because it carries a diluted gene. Most peculiar.

The people could have bought two beautifully bred stunners from an ethical, reputable, registered breeder & had change. & quite a fair lump of change at that

Secondly, those threads make it patently obvious a Main Register, registered dog is indeed a much more valuable asset than its Limited Register counterpart & as such breeders are well within their rights to charge more for them. As a matter of fact, they are silly not to.

It isn't so much about the money, it's about protecting the integrity of pure breeds. Why cheapen the Main Register by giving Main Register dogs away for a pet price? Beats the heck out of me.

One good thing to emerge from that thread tho is the dog in question isn't on the main register.

So that was a good outcome.

So dogs on limited register are discount bin?

It costs the same to have a litter, regardless of what is in it. Main register is for dogs that may be shown and bred from, limited for those that are not intended to be shown or bred from. And there are plenty of 'show' quality dogs in pet homes.

[dwayne pype]

On the contrary, if breeders are selling all puppies for the same price, regardless of which register they are on, it's the Main Register puppies that are from the ''discount bin.''

The Main Register is, in theory anyhow, the place for those dogs of the exceptional qualities sought to carry the respectives breeds forward without compromising the integrity of the particular breed & as such are more valuable than those that aren't so highly regarded.

What breeders wish to charge for their ''product'' is up to them. I am simply saying Main Register dogs are a more valuable asset than their lesser register counterparts.

I would even go so far as to say a dog which can be exhibit as a prime example of its type & whose progeny can also be main registered, exhibited & bred from is worth infinitely more than one which is finished as far breed advancement is concern.

At least double in fact.

However, I repeat. What a breeder charges is their own personal business, but an individual breeder shouldn't be made to feel like a profiteer simply because they think their breeding is worth more than the next breeder.

Some invest astronomical amounts in their breed, while others pick up a puppy from the Trading Post.

Everything is relevent.

[Allerzeit]

What a breeder charges is their own personal business, but an individual breeder shouldn't be made to feel like a profiteer simply because they think their breeding is worth more than the next breeder.

Right, but it's fine to make a breeder who charges the same price for both main and limited register dogs feel like they are wrong to do so?

Secondly, those threads make it patently obvious a Main Register, registered dog is indeed a much more valuable asset than its Limited Register counterpart & as such breeders are well within their rights to charge more for them. As a matter of fact, they are silly not to.

[lappiemum]

What most ethical breeders charge for a puppy has very little to do with what you invest in your breed. If you expect financial compensation, you're going to be rather disappointed!

Originally, all pedigree dogs were mains registered. Limited register came along as an option for breeders who wanted some control over the breeding of their lines. However, reality is that there are a lot more pet homes than show/breed homes.

If a breed has a sliding scale of charges then thats up to them. However, I wouldn't come on here and state that a breeder who has a single price - thats within the range of what you would expect to pay - is cheapening the breed - actually, I'd find that insulting, given that I know many reputable and very ethical registered breeder who don't have a sliding scale at all.

[Bisart Dobes]

I don't understand your point.

Every single puppy in every litter has:

The same amount of work, effort, health testing, diet, conditioning, exhibiting, titles etc etc etc go into their dam - for years prior to being born.

The same price charged for the sire or semen.

The same amount of genetic tests run.

The same amount of vaccinations done.

The same amount of worming done.

The same amount of food, supplements, etc etc offered

The same amount of time spent on development and socialisation.

The same amount of grooming and handling training.

The same amount of good behaviour and obedience training.

The same amount of individual time to build up confidence.

The same amount of cuddles and love.

The same amount of washing done after it.

The same amount of poo picked up after it.

ETC

ETC

ETC

God, we could all list a thousand things we do for each puppy before it goes to its new home.

We charge the same for each puppy, puppies which are not going into a show home are on the limited register, but that is the only difference from the litter mates that are on the main register. They may be equally as good and could easily be shown but that is not their journey. The same amount of care, love, diet, wellbeing, health testing, socialisation and conditioning and veterinary care goes into each and every puppy.

Who say's the dog we sold to a pet home who saved the family's kids from the burning shed isn't as worthy as his litter brother who titled in the showring ??? Not his ANKC registration thats for sure. To his family he is priceless.

[becks]

Charge more for main register and you are implying the new owner is getting something better then the rest, what happens if that pup then fails to live up to it's early promise? What if it can't be bred from? Would you expect the buyer to just suck it up or demand compensation from the breeder?

[oakway]

I grade my puppies as I see them.

Firstly, I look for the quality show pups.

When the Show quality have been picked the other pups are placed on the limited register.

Many times I am asked if I have a show quality pup for sale. (I am not breeding at this time)

If the purchaser wants a pup suitable to show and wants it at 8 to 10 weeks they pay show quality price.

People that want a pet pay pet price.

If I consider them inferior why should you pay top price.

Should persons be interested in purchasing one of the ones that have been run on to 8 to 10 months and are winning in the ring pay the highest price for a puppy from me.

If you want a Mini Minor you pay the price but if you want one of top luxury models, you also pay the price.

Their seems to be a stigma on breeders that get fair and reasonable prices for their pups.

I see nothing wrong in getting the asking price for a well bred healthy, vaccinated and registered puppy, weather it is on the main or limited register.

I believe that after many generation of nurturing these dogs we are entitled to it. Just remember all the breeders that over many years worked to produce the best they could for you to own.

Edited May 13, 2010 by oakway

[dancinbcs]

Several of the most successful breeders I know, in several breeds, actually give away their best show prospects to place them in the homes where they will reach their potential. Sometimes they are in dual names, sometimes not, but the idea is to get the puppy into the best possible show home. The pet puppies are sold to cover some of the expenses of breeding the litter.

Some breeders place them on lease or in dual names until they are titled, then transfer them over to reward the owner for putting in the effort to show the dog. Many of my friends show dogs that were given to them.

I would never charge more for a show prospect because I would want to encourage people to show my stock not penalise them for it. A puppy that goes into a pet home contributes nothing to the future of the breed or to the success of it's breeder. A show puppy placed in the right hands can make the reputation of a breeder.

If you are breeding to be the best and produce the best, making money is never a consideration.

[dwayne pype]

Different strokes for different folks.

A thought,

Are those charging a flat rate for all their puppies charging a pet price for their show/breeding prospects or a show price for their so called pets only quality. & who is the more honest. those openly charging premium for premium stock & less for the pets or the alternative.

If one considers all the puppies of a litter to be equal, why not place them all the same register, charge accordingly & be done with it.

Btw, all puppies were not listed on the main register prior to the raising of the limited register. only puppies considered worthy were registered & the others not registered at all & sold ''without papers''.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I don't see making a profit on a litter as a capitol crime either. As a matter of fact I would wager most registered, ethical breeders do make a profit most of the time.

[dancinbcs]

Different strokes for different folks.

A thought,

Are those charging a flat rate for all their puppies charging a pet price for their show/breeding prospects or a show price for their so called pets only quality. & who is the more honest. those openly charging premium for premium stock & less for the pets or the alternative.

If one considers all the puppies of a litter to be equal, why not place them all the same register, charge accordingly & be done with it.

Btw, all puppies were not listed on the main register prior to the raising of the limited register. only puppies considered worthy were registered & the others not registered at all & sold ''without papers''.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I don't see making a profit on a litter as a capitol crime either. As a matter of fact I would wager most registered, ethical breeders do make a profit most of the time.

Most pets werein fact sold with main register papers before the limit register came in. Some breeders chose not to register them but most did register. A lot depended on which state you were in. SA did not register but NSW and Vic did. Not sure about the others. The limit register was introduced to stop dealers buying pet puppies and selling them as breeding stock to overseas buyers. A limit register dog cannot be issued with an export pedigree. Breeders then started using it to limit the breeding of dogs with obvious faults and somehow it has ended up being used to stop anyone new from breeding.

I would say most breeders who sell all puppies at the same price sell them for pet price and not penalise those that choose to show.

As for making a profit, no way. Maybe it is possible in some breeds but for my breed I calculated that you would need to sell 50 to 60 puppies from a bitch to cover the costs of breeding those puppies and showing and keeping the bitch for her lifetime of approx 15 years. As most bitches in my breed only have 2 or 3 litters of about 5 or 6 there is no way breeders are making a profit. Some show bitches only have one litter. Then take into consideration things like the outlay on a frozen semen litter that produces one puppy by c-section and average it out with the more successful litters.

Sure breeders sometimes make a profit on the outlay for an individual litter but averaged out with the disasters over the lifetime of the dogs there is not profit in the long run. If there was we would all be claiming all our dog expenses on our tax. The tax dept doesn't want to know about it unless you can make a clear profit over three years. I personally don't know anyone who has managed to do that in nearly 3 decades in dogs.

Edited May 13, 2010 by dancinbcs

[dwayne pype]

What ever.

As I said, different strokes for different folks.

However, what you claim about pre the limited register is just not true.

Even if the breeder did register the entire litter, they would simply not issue the papers for those puppies sold ''without papers''.

Only the naive would believe breeders would continue to breed at a loss, everytime, out of the goodness of their hearts to supply people they generally don't even know with a valuable animal they have strived so hard to achieve perfection with. That does not compute I'm sorry.

Only three decades? - I've have you by that & half that again.

But I am curious about which breed & what is general price asked, that would require 50-60 puppies from one bitch to make a profit. The general rule of thumb is, sans complications, two puppies will break you even. One covers the stud the other covers the vet & registrations. What's an average litter? - four?- eight even? six maybe? yes? - no? there has to be a profit there somewhere - in most cases.

I lost a little on my last litter. A 3a.m c section with complications saw loss of puppies with only three survivors. one paid the vet, i kept one & the other almost, but not quite, covered the vaccs & micro chipping - then i had to outlay for the registrations . It was a loss, but not substantial. & my first btw - the c section at that hour did the damage.

I know people who have had dreadful tragedies with litters & lost everything. But that is the exception, not the rule.

P.C. is all well & good. But does it reflect reality? Generally, no. I.M.O.

[Rebanne]

I lost a little on my last litter. A 3a.m c section with complications saw loss of puppies with only three survivors. one paid the vet, i kept one & the other almost, but not quite, covered the vaccs & micro chipping - then i had to outlay for the registrations . It was a loss, but not substantial. & my first btw - the c section at that hour did the damage.

what pup paid for the stud fee and/or the surgical AI? My last, and so far only litter, I had a stud fee, surgical AI, c-section and all the other normal costs associated with raising a litter. Bitch had 2 pups, one sold and one kept, where's my profit?

[BJean]

It costs the same to have a litter, regardless of what is in it. Main register is for dogs that may be shown and bred from, limited for those that are not intended to be shown or bred from. And there are plenty of 'show' quality dogs in pet homes.

I dont understand this concept, as a reason why not to charge more for show/potential pups on Full Reg

Yes it costs the same to have a litter

but pet homes aren't buying a potential show/breed dog.

They're not buying the bloodlines of the dog the same way another breeder is.

oh hey look how late it is, I'll just cut and paste

...

When you buy a puppy on full register, a puppy that is the standout from its littermates, you are buying the breeder's work, good will, love and diligence to the breed.

I wont part with a standout puppy on full register for pet price - no way.

Pet homes get the same price ($1000-$1500 cheaper than show/breed homes) whether domestic or international bloodlines.

But full register, potential breeders, you wont puchase a puppy that cost 10-20K to put on the the ground and expect to get much change from $3000.

HOWEVER

if that standout pup does not fulfill the owners and my expectations of what is breed/show worthy

its refund or replacement, or refund of cost differential once pup is desexed.

Edited May 13, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Charge more for main register and you are implying the new owner is getting something better then the rest

They are.

They are getting the best breed quality pup of the litter, that is marked as having the most potential to contribute to the future of the breed.

The family with young children will get the best pup suited to a family in suburban environment.

And the retired couple lving in woop woop will get the best puppy suited to a family home in a rural environment.

But its the standout pup going to the potential breeding home thats has a premium price because thats the pup that represents the bloodlines, and is an asset to the breed/owner. They are buying the import lineage, the breeders eye, the breeders work and diligence - in the hope that it will also benefit their breeding.

what happens if that pup then fails to live up to it's early promise? What if it can't be bred from? Would you expect the buyer to just suck it up or demand compensation from the breeder?

Refund or replacement or refund of price differential on desexing.

ie Limited Reg price as if it had been sold to a home where it was not intended for breeding.

[ellz]

Everything I don't keep personally is put on Limited Registration now anyway so my "pet" puppies are probably better than many other "show" puppies on Main Registration that are out there. And my price is my price. No haggling, no offers. One price for all.

[whippets]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging more for a "show prospect" on mains register compared to a pet quality pup on limited register.

Not that it's anyone elses business what other breeders do with their own dogs anyway.

[Bilbo Baggins]

What ever.

As I said, different strokes for different folks.

However, what you claim about pre the limited register is just not true.

Even if the breeder did register the entire litter, they would simply not issue the papers for those puppies sold ''without papers''.

Only the naive would believe breeders would continue to breed at a loss, everytime, out of the goodness of their hearts to supply people they generally don't even know with a valuable animal they have strived so hard to achieve perfection with. That does not compute I'm sorry.

Only three decades? - I've have you by that & half that again.

But I am curious about which breed & what is general price asked, that would require 50-60 puppies from one bitch to make a profit. The general rule of thumb is, sans complications, two puppies will break you even. One covers the stud the other covers the vet & registrations. What's an average litter? - four?- eight even? six maybe? yes? - no? there has to be a profit there somewhere - in most cases.

I lost a little on my last litter. A 3a.m c section with complications saw loss of puppies with only three survivors. one paid the vet, i kept one & the other almost, but not quite, covered the vaccs & micro chipping - then i had to outlay for the registrations . It was a loss, but not substantial. & my first btw - the c section at that hour did the damage.

I know people who have had dreadful tragedies with litters & lost everything. But that is the exception, not the rule.

P.C. is all well & good. But does it reflect reality? Generally, no. I.M.O.

I have been breeding for dogs for 20 years in Victoria. In that time it have been part of the COE to register all live puppies and supply papers to the new owners. To not do so is against the COE that you have signed.

Other states have only just come up to this.

I am not sure what year the limited registwer came in.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I beleive this post by Jed says it all.

QUOTE

"From time to time the question arises of whether breeders make a profit or not. Who cares? Obviously someone does, or they wouldn't ask. Why? I have no idea. Is it wrong to make a profit? Is it right?

I never respond from a personal point of view. I have no idea whether I make a profit or not. I care for the dogs, spend whatever needs to be spent, and sell the pups for the average price. Sometimes things don't go well, and it costs more than I get back. Sometimes the income from the pups is more than the cost of getting them. That's life.

I don't keep records of income and expenditure. If I wanted to know, I would probably work it out, and I would probably find that over a year I was covering the costs. I don't worry too much about it. The profits are not in the money in the bank.

But there are huge profits, for me, from keeping and breeding dogs.

The profits are in seeing happy, glossy dogs playing in the garden, waggy tails and wide smiles when I come home from work. In constant smiling companionship. The pleasure of grooming them, or stroking them, or playing with them. They don't care what's on TV, they never complain if I am home late, they never fret or sulk if I don't have as much time tonight as I had last night. That confiding little nose pushed under my arm at night, that little body curled at my feet.

The profts are in seeing the little mummies so thrilled with and proud of their babies. Proud, strutting daddy dogs thinking they rule the world. Seeing little pups grow into nice dogs that I can be proud of as a breeder; each one special, unique, never to be repeated, and loved for his own little self for the short time he is here. Seeing gentle adult dogs playing with babies in the garden, running, jumping, chasing - then falling in an untidy heap - instantly asleep.

The profits are in the diversity, yet the similarity in the breed, the profits are in calling one of the 4th generation home bred, and realising I have the wong dog - because my dogs are now a line, and resemble each other.

Those little insensate hairy newborn blobs turning into real dogs, barking, running, playing, going cheerfully off to new homes with never a backward glance, as I wipe away whatever it is that got in my eye.

The profits are in the photos and letters I get back from puppy buyers, sometimes for years, sometimes for the life of the dog. The profits are in sorting out any problems so the dog has a lifetime home.

The profits are in encountering a new problem - veterinary, training, whatever - and finding the solution, and learning more so I can be a better breeder from the experience.

The profits are in studying the bloodllines and the type in my yard, and scheming and plotting and planning how to improve them - and doing more research.

The profits are in good friends, always ready with good advice, or an understanding shoulder. Who else but a breeder would understand the grief that losing a day old pup brings? Or a stillborn? Or an eagerly awaited preganacy which doesn't evenuate. Or losing an oldie - your "regular" friends say "it's only a dog, and an old one at that", but your breeder friends understand you have lost your friend, your easy companion who never needed calling, because she knew where to be when, never needed a hard word, because she understood how things worked as well as you did - the great-grandmother of the pup which is winning for someone; or the grandmother of some little kid's nice pet; they understand you have lost part of your history, and they grieve with you.

The profits are in the ones you keep, the pleausre in training them, in having them, in enjoying them, in seeing them as good canine citizens, growing old in easy companionship, lying by your feet.

The profits are in seeing a beautiful dog - whether mine or not - which fills my eye, and gives me pleasure, just by existimg, and being his own individual, special doggy person.

Those are the profits for me. I don't know whether I make monetary profit or not, and I don't care - as long as there is enough for our needs, I am happy.

If you make some money, why not? You certainly wont keep breeding if you are going bankrupt, and then the puppy farms will be able to sell more pups. And if enough breeders go bankrupt, the gene pool will be so reduced, it will be impossible to buy a healthy registered pup.

and that's a bad thing."

[Aspyre]

Beautifully written, Jed has such a way with words!!

Thinking of you Jed

Thanks for posting BB.