Could This Be Neurological?

[nickojoy]

A friend purchased a pup a week ago, the pup is now 9 weeks old. The new owners are apparently having health issues with it. They have said they have taken it now to 3 different vets and the last vet said it had L2HGA, which I believe is impossible seeing both sire and dam are clear.

The pup is rubbing its bum on the ground (I'm thinking worms, but it has been wormed) and biting itself and biting the carpet. Apparently when someone touches this pup it bits them as if it is in pain and yelps. It is also rubbing its belly on the ground, and gets the shakes (maybe nerves). The vets have done xrays, ultrasounds and blood tests and nothing. The pup is now 9 weeks of age, the new owners have had it for 6 days and the pup has had this behaviour the last 3 days. The new owners have only kept this pup inside. His diet is BARF with no dry food at all.

Any ideas?

[WreckitWhippet]

Reaction to ivermectin, moxydectin or one of the other nasties maybe.

L2-HGA doesn't tend to show up that early.

ETA No vet can make an L2 diagnosis just by looking at a pup. They need to swab and send it off to be tested.

Edited May 13, 2010 by SBT123

[nickojoy]

Reaction to ivermectin, moxydectin or one of the other nasties maybe.

L2-HGA doesn't tend to show up that early.

ETA No vet can make an L2 diagnosis just by looking at a pup. They need to swab and send it off to be tested.

Cool thanks, will double check exactly what was given to the pup in regards to worming tablets or heart worming.

Also - the 3rd vet didn't look at the pup he made the diagnosis over the phone!!!!! and also said even though the parents are cleared the pup can still get it!!!! This is a well known Sydney vet mind you.

[poodlefan]

Nick can you tell us more about the pup?

Where exactly did it come from? I'd be suggesting a behaviourist as well as a vet because what you're describing suggests to me in part that this pup may never have been handled before purchase.

The other behaviour says "allergies" as much as anything. A BARF diet does not guarantee no allergic reactions. What is the pup being fed and why isn't it getting access outdoors?

Edited May 13, 2010 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Reaction to ivermectin, moxydectin or one of the other nasties maybe.

L2-HGA doesn't tend to show up that early.

ETA No vet can make an L2 diagnosis just by looking at a pup. They need to swab and send it off to be tested.

Cool thanks, will double check exactly what was given to the pup in regards to worming tablets or heart worming.

Also - the 3rd vet didn't look at the pup he made the diagnosis over the phone!!!!! and also said even though the parents are cleared the pup can still get it!!!! This is a well known Sydney vet mind you.

Can I speak up out of fairness to the Vet? Could it be possible that the pup's owners described symptoms and Vet suggested this "L2-HGA" as a possibility, rather than as a diagnosis? If the Vet did diagnose, then that would be very wrong, but it might have been a suggestion as a possibility. Why haven't these people actually been to see the Vet instead of only a talk on the phone? ETA: Sorry - re-read and see this was a 3rd Vet opinion and that owners have take the pup to see the other 2.

I'm sensitive to this as so many people want us dog trainer/behaviourists to make suggestions without seeing their dogs (DOL forum is evidence of that) and I'd hate it if any of my suggestions (and that's all they can be and usually expressed as) were twisted around elsewhere to indicate I'd diagnosed the dog's behaviour without witnessing it.

I haven't got a clue what L2-HGA is, but I do think it plausible that the pup could be feeling and responding to a drug application (eg vaccination/heartworm) and that's what I'd be checking out first, I think.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Erny

[persephone]

Poor pup does sound as if it is pain of some sort-- whether from some gut trouble, allergies or ?? What do the breeders say? What were the blood tests FOR ?

I would definitely be contacting the breeders... .and also checking EXACTLY what chemicals this pup has been exposed to .. vacc's, worming.flea stuff, baths, and whatever else. Did anything change or get done to the pup in the day preceding the behaviour?

[WreckitWhippet]

Reaction to ivermectin, moxydectin or one of the other nasties maybe.

L2-HGA doesn't tend to show up that early.

ETA No vet can make an L2 diagnosis just by looking at a pup. They need to swab and send it off to be tested.

Cool thanks, will double check exactly what was given to the pup in regards to worming tablets or heart worming.

Also - the 3rd vet didn't look at the pup he made the diagnosis over the phone!!!!! and also said even though the parents are cleared the pup can still get it!!!! This is a well known Sydney vet mind you.

A pup that comes from clear parents or even a carrier to clear mating cannot be affected by L2-HGA.

If they are in doubt, they can swab the pup and foward it off to GTA.

[nickojoy]

I spoke to the breeder today, the breeder had 8 pups from this litter and 2 are still in care at the breeders waiting to be picked up. No symptoms are being displayed on these 2 pups and no other complaints from other new owners.

I personally seen the pups at 4 weeks old, and maybe they were not getting the attention they required, but i am unable to fully comment on this.

The pup is being kept inside as the new owner is afraid it may catch something from their yard, not 100% sure if something has gone wrong in the yard before or they are just being paranoid.

The pup was wormed prior to going to the new owner, the new owner spoke with me today and said that they had wormed it twice, I had the heart worming question written down but forgot to ask as they were in panic and very upset.

pup is being fed mince, rice, pasta and cooked veggies (unsure what veggies).

I was very shocked to hear that the vet said it was very common in staffords and they display symptoms at 6 weeks, where everything I was reading today about it said from 6 months.

Pup was only wormed (supplied by the vet) and given C3 at breeders, wasn't bathed or heart worm treated. But what if mum was treated for heartworm whilst pregnant, could this effect the pup? Like via vaccination?

There was a party on the weekend at the new owners house - maybe the noise or something??? Maybe some young kid gave it something it wasn't to have, like a drug or alcohol, that is all I can think of.

[Stitch]

My initial response to your last post is why would they worm it twice since they have had the pup such a short time and it is only 9 weeks old?????

It would seem that there are just way to many possibilities to even guess at what is wrong with the pup without seeing it.

If it was me I would take it back to the breeder and show them and ask for some help - bearing in mind that the breeder may not be at fault in any way.

I certainly wouldn't be putting a new pup in a position where it could be accessed by party goers - so who knows what else may have happened to it.

[nickojoy]

Update on the story

The pup was last wormed by the breeder and the owner saw this happy last Wednesay when she picked up the pup. The pup also had fleas which then she placed Advocate on the pup to kill them, apparently the fleas were jumping all over the new owners daughter. The behaviour started Saturday when she rushed the pup to a emergency vet south west Sydney. Xray's were conducted thinking the pup had a blockage but nothing seen, the second vet then took bloods and did a ultrasound, nothing showed on the ultrasound and still waiting on the bloods, unsure what they are testing with the bloods.

[nickojoy]

If it was me I would take it back to the breeder and show them and ask for some help - bearing in mind that the breeder may not be at fault in any way.

I'm meeting the breeder at the owners house in the morning so we can see what is going on with the pup and I can play the middle girl...I spoke with the breeder today and she was in tears having no idea what was going on and very confused.

[KitKat]

They sure the pup isn't allergic to the flea product?

I've known cats and dogs to have some varying reactions to the products - one cat i know cries and does her damndest to rub the product off within minutes, getting more upset and violent as she went (owner realised what the problem might have been , shoved cat into shower to get as much product off as possible and off to vets they went).

[persephone]

I would worry also what the poor pup may have ingested (or breathed in) at the party

Did they use the correct dosage of flea treatment?

[dancinbcs]

Is Advocate safe for a puppy that young? I don't use it so have no idea but don't think I would use a multi-chemical treatment on a 9 week old puppy. My guess would be an adverse reaction to the Advocate if the puppy was normal when it left the breeder.

Surely the puppy didn't have fleas when it was sold. I wonder if the fleas were at the new owners house waiting for a host to jump on to.

[Diva]

Surely the puppy didn't have fleas when it was sold

I don't know anything about this particular case, but I wouldn't assume it didn't. One of mine arrived on a plane with fleas, and yes from a reg breeder. Possible it picked them all up on a short haul flight I guess but I don't really think so.

Hope you can get to the bottom of it nickojoy. Good of you to help.

[Kirty]

Advocate is pretty strong stuff. I won't use anything stronger than Advantage on my puppies/kittens.

It sounds like a reaction, not neuroligcal. What was the puppy being fed at the breeders place? Can the owner switch back to that diet for now. Some dogs have weird allergies, eg red meat, pasta, etc.

[nickojoy]

I'm going to visit the pup this morning without the breeder. I don't want anyone stressing out and I don't want a yelling match between anyone. I am taking the video camera with me and will post up later maybe it is different to what I am being told.

I did confirm that it was Advantage and not Advocate. The pup was given a injection yesterday at the vet to make sure it didn't have worms.

I suggested to stop the current diet, which is exactly what the breeder was feeding and try puppy food. I said last night if the pup was infested with worms that to give him a can of puppy food to flush the system and to start on some quality dry food.

The pup apparently did have fleas and this is why they treated it with advantage. They spoke to the vet last night and he said that there is no way that the pup is allergic to the treatment for fleas or worms. The vet refered them to Karen Hedburg for further advise.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in previous posts, but when the pup is rubbing his bum on the ground and biting the carpert at the same time, if anyone goes near him he attacks them. Spoke to a behavourist last night about this, they said maybe a anal gland infection and the pup is in pain so when you approach it is affraid and attacks.

Just spoke to the owners, there is no change in his behaviour this morning.

[~Anne~]

I'm going to visit the pup this morning without the breeder. I don't want anyone stressing out and I don't want a yelling match between anyone. I am taking the video camera with me and will post up later maybe it is different to what I am being told.

I did confirm that it was Advantage and not Advocate. The pup was given a injection yesterday at the vet to make sure it didn't have worms.

Wha? An injection for worms?? I think the owners or whomever is giving you the info is really confusing a lot of things.

I suggested to stop the current diet, which is exactly what the breeder was feeding and try puppy food. I said last night if the pup was infested with worms that to give him a can of puppy food to flush the system and to start on some quality dry food.

The pup apparently did have fleas and this is why they treated it with advantage. They spoke to the vet last night and he said that there is no way that the pup is allergic to the treatment for fleas or worms. The vet refered them to Karen Hedburg for further advise.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in previous posts, but when the pup is rubbing his bum on the ground and biting the carpert at the same time, if anyone goes near him he attacks them. Spoke to a behavourist last night about this, they said maybe a anal gland infection and the pup is in pain so when you approach it is affraid and attacks.

Just spoke to the owners, there is no change in his behaviour this morning.

When you say he is 'attacking' people who approach him while he is rubbing his bottom, is he literally being aggressive or is he just indicating he is enjoying the sensation and his senses are alert/high and he doesn't want them to stop it? Is there any chance the owners are over dramatising his behaviour?? When dogs scratch an itch, they commonly 'flea bite' at the same time.

Edited May 13, 2010 by ~Anne~

[persephone]

Sounds like he has been bombarded with all sorts of chemicals ,whatever the problem. That can't be doing him much good.

I hope that someone can get accurate info and whatever it is can be treated.

Re: the diet- may I suggest stick to what he is being fed- changing food now will just add to the confusion;)..and may upset his tummy .

When you say he is 'attacking' people who approach him while he is rubbing his bottom, is he literally being aggressive or is he just indicating he is enjoying the sensation and his senses are alert/high and he doesn't want them to stop it? Is there any chance the owners are over dramatising his behaviour?? When dogs scratch an itch, they commonly 'flea bite' at the same time.

Good point!

edit to remove rubbish

Edited May 13, 2010 by persephone

[Rappie]

I'm not sure if I mentioned it in previous posts, but when the pup is rubbing his bum on the ground and biting the carpert at the same time, if anyone goes near him he attacks them. Spoke to a behavourist last night about this, they said maybe a anal gland infection and the pup is in pain so when you approach it is affraid and attacks.

I have seen young puppies with anal gland infections before. Rubbing the bottom on the ground is uncommonly a sign of worms, more often related to direct irritation of the anus and perianal area such as anal glands or irritation from fleas.

I have also met one pup (an 8 week old SBT) that screamed so loudly and dramatically when I tried to lift it's lip to check gum colour that I was more than little concerned that it was truly that painful. It wasn't, just had no idea about being handled by humans, it's grown up in to quite a nice pup.