How Many Of Us Thunder Scared Dogs

[Crazy Daisy]

My Shih Tzu Daisy is the only one of my dogs that is scared of storms. We live down the road from an army base and she hates it when they are doing live fire and morters too. She also hates fireworks. If I know there is a storm coming I put her inside when I go out or if one comes up quickly (which happens all the time in QLD) I rush home to put her inside. Once inside I ignore her and make her sleep on one of the many mats in the house. Storms are the only time she sleeps next to my bed. Once the storm is over she is more than happy to go outside with the boys.

She isn't too bad compared to my old Boston terrier who hated storms with a passion. She would start drooling and try and sit on my lap or claw at my legs if I was walking around. All she wanted to do was either be as close to me as possible or hiding in a cupboard. Once when I thought a possible storm was coming I locked her in the house and she broke through a glass window to get outside and then she went next door to the neighbours border collie and slept in his kennel with him. Don't know why she thought he would protect her and my shepherd x and golden wouldn't After that we had to give her medication as she was causing harm to herself. It was so terrifying to see her so distressed.

Only my small dogs have had phobias of storms, none of my big guys ever worried about them. My last Golden I would have to drag inside by his collar when there was lightening as all he wanted to do was sit out in the pouring rain. :rolleyes:

[Mim]

Muddy is scared of storms because of the hail storm we had earlier in the year. That freaked him right out because he was outside when it hit suddenly. Daina gets a bit scared but nothing too bad. She sleeps with me normally and when it started last night she just crept under the blankets. Muddy then launched onto the bed and burrowed under the pillows and was shivering. I ignored him but the shivering was SO annoying.

Elle is scared of storms and fireworks so she sits in a little gap between mums bed and her bedside table until it stops.

Sarge sleeps through everything and wonders why we are all tired the next morning :rolleyes:

[corvus]

If you mollycoddle them, that is just re-inforcing their fear, I think you are better off not giving into them.

When did I say anything about mollycoddling? There is a distinct difference between coddling and offering reassurance. My girl was always better if she had someone to lie next to or close by. If she got very frightened I would sit next to her and put my hand on her. It helped. I never cuddled her or made baby noises at her or did those high-pitched noises people tend to do when they are being sympathetic. THOSE encourage fear. It's like saying to your dog "I'm scared, too. Definitely something to freak out about." But calm reassurance does not reinforce fearful behaviour. And the chief reason why is because you can't positively reinforce fear. It's a response to an aversive stimulus.

Here's several blog entries by Patricia McConnell with her views on dogs and thunderstorms: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/categ...phobia-in-dogs/

Edited to fix links.

Edited May 13, 2010 by corvus

[MavericksMission]

Maverick and Hector couldn't care less during a storm.

They generally act like normal and or sleep through it :rolleyes:

[Little Gifts]

I tried a different approach with my boy. He was scared of thousands of different things and started the panting and trying to crawl inside my skin long before I could hear the storm approaching. Once it hit he would shake uncontrollably. He was rarely left alone day or night because he had hurt himself chewing through walls and barricades over storms and fire works when left unattended and you can't always predict nature.

Anyway after a few years of all this I took a different approach. I decided to try and distract him with normalcy. I would talk to him and play with him and call him to walk with me around the house to do little chores with me, I'd give him massages and we'd change his collar or organise his food, whatever I could think of at the time, even if it meant getting out of a lovely warm bed. It wasn't molly coddling though - basically I'd try and engage and get him more focussed on me rather than how he was feeling. He certainly got more manageable but was never desensitised to it all. It seemed like it almost hurt his head rather than caused him fear/anxiety. Eventually I'd only have to focus my energies on him for about 5 - 15 minutes, talking and massaging and he'd settle next to me with only light panting.

[mantis]

If you mollycoddle them, that is just re-inforcing their fear, I think you are better off not giving into them.

When did I say anything about mollycoddling? There is a distinct difference between coddling and offering reassurance. My girl was always better if she had someone to lie next to or close by. If she got very frightened I would sit next to her and put my hand on her. It helped. I never cuddled her or made baby noises at her or did those high-pitched noises people tend to do when they are being sympathetic. THOSE encourage fear. It's like saying to your dog "I'm scared, too. Definitely something to freak out about." But calm reassurance does not reinforce fearful behaviour. And the chief reason why is because you can't positively reinforce fear. It's a response to an aversive stimulus.

Here's several blog entries by Patricia McConnell with her views on dogs and thunderstorms: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/categ...phobia-in-dogs/

Edited to fix links.

Sorry but I disagree. A dog doesn't know the difference between mollycoddling & reassurance, all they know is that you are paying attention to them because they are scared. I used to do that with Kenny, but it didn't stop him panting, shaking & whining, since I have started ignoring him & sending him to bed, he is much better. But we all have different ideas on what works for our dogs, so at least new owners are getting many different approaches to try & see which works best on their dogs. :rolleyes:

[Teebs]

I would hate to have a dog scared of storms, Mine always sleep through them and fireworks - i remember years ago we had a massive storm, I was scared (takes a lot to scare me!) so i came out looking for the dogs, both fast asleep on the lounge, i had to wake them to get them to come into bed with me :rolleyes:

[Loraine]

I agree with Mantis, you shouldn't mollycoddle them as you are teaching them that it is OK to behave like that. Its very hard though.

My mums staffy however can hear a storm before we do and starts panting. In the storm, she shakes like you've never seen, you can't talk to her or get her to come to you. She goes on the bed, under the bed, under the coffee table, beside your chair. She pants and drools. Its horrible to watch but there is nothing you can do for her. She is the same with fireworks. Mum and dad now lightly sedate her on NYE.

Zedley tries to get under things, over things - he gets completely freaked out and I cannot distract him (not that I was in the mood for distrating any dog in the early hours of this morning.

In the past I have tried the CD with thunder noises, and that did not help at all, he just wen even more feral whilst it was on. he is now 7 and has been with me since he was 2 and has always been like this. If I totally ignore him he just contines running in and out of the house, under and over furniture - getting more and more strange. Seems drugs are the only thing that helps. He can also sense a storm before it hits, and starts up then.

[Kaz]

If you mollycoddle them, that is just re-inforcing their fear, I think you are better off not giving into them.

When did I say anything about mollycoddling? There is a distinct difference between coddling and offering reassurance. My girl was always better if she had someone to lie next to or close by. If she got very frightened I would sit next to her and put my hand on her. It helped. I never cuddled her or made baby noises at her or did those high-pitched noises people tend to do when they are being sympathetic. THOSE encourage fear. It's like saying to your dog "I'm scared, too. Definitely something to freak out about." But calm reassurance does not reinforce fearful behaviour. And the chief reason why is because you can't positively reinforce fear. It's a response to an aversive stimulus.

Here's several blog entries by Patricia McConnell with her views on dogs and thunderstorms: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/categ...phobia-in-dogs/

Edited to fix links.

Sorry but I disagree. A dog doesn't know the difference between mollycoddling & reassurance, all they know is that you are paying attention to them because they are scared. I used to do that with Kenny, but it didn't stop him panting, shaking & whining, since I have started ignoring him & sending him to bed, he is much better. But we all have different ideas on what works for our dogs, so at least new owners are getting many different approaches to try & see which works best on their dogs. :rolleyes:

Oops, sorry Corvus. I know what you mean but I agree with Mantis that reassurance generally escalates the fear.

I have had many foster dogs join the pack who are scared of thunder storms (mine don't give a rats )

If I have a scared foster, I will ignore it and have a really happy sit stay, drop session with the rest of the pack with the yummiest unhealthy rewards that happen to be in the fridge at the time. I haven't yet had a foster dog that didn't eventually join in even if it was still nervous. After a couple of sessions like this they would all be quite settled with the storms and start demanding treats instead

I am lucky that I have other dogs around to set the example. However I am sure some form of distraction will work better than reassurance.

[stormie]

Our previous Golden was storm phobic. But I am sure I created that. As a young kid, I was petrified of storms so I'm sure I would have run to her for cuddles when I was scared, thus making her scared. My step dads Golden was the same and used to break out during storms. It was awful.

I was nervous about Orbit's first storm experience because the last thing I wanted was a storm phobic Dane - I've heard of a few that were pts because of the damage they'd do to themselves trying to escape.

Strangely, I now LOVE storms and go out chasing/photographing them. Orbit isn't the bravest, but I still remember his first storm. He heard the thunder and bolted upright and looked straight to me. It was hard, but I completely ignored him like it meant nothing (when actually I was really excited about the prospect of a chase ) and a few minutes later actually took him out chasing in the car with me. He loves the car and so I'm sure that made his first storm a fun, but normal experience for him.

I think it's really important to make storms a positive thing. Towards the end with Millie, our Golden after I knew better, I used to take her outside or if it was safe, take her for a walk to try and change her negative association with storms into something more positive. It did help.

[Guest belgian.blue]

Badgers first thunder storm last night and he wasn't phased. It woke us all up, naturally, but he quickly settled back down .. in my bed mind you at it was like 4:3Oam and I had to be up at 6am and he thought it was wakey time already!

[corvus]

Sorry but I disagree. A dog doesn't know the difference between mollycoddling & reassurance, all they know is that you are paying attention to them because they are scared. I used to do that with Kenny, but it didn't stop him panting, shaking & whining, since I have started ignoring him & sending him to bed, he is much better. But we all have different ideas on what works for our dogs, so at least new owners are getting many different approaches to try & see which works best on their dogs.

Sure, that's your prerogative.

As McConnell says in her blog, petting may or may not help them cope with it, but it certainly won't make it worse. As she points out, fear is so aversive in the first place that it's very hard to "reinforce" it with anything positive to make it something an animal would voluntarily repeat. McConnell's blog articles are in fact referenced where appropriate. There is science behind what she says. It's been researched.

Kaz, McConnell also points out that one thing that certainly does lower cortisol levels in anxious dogs is the presence of other dogs. I would venture to suggest what you find so effective is a combination of positive distractions and a group of dogs that aren't bothered by storms. We tried that one on my last dog as well, and it didn't work. Nothing did. You could only make it slightly better for her so that she wasn't shaking quite as much.

I read the paper about the anti-static cape she refers to (it has been published, now) and it didn't make any difference, but wearing a cape of any sort did. The dogs were still afraid, but panted less when they were wearing a close-fitting cape.

[W Sibs]

If you mollycoddle them, that is just re-inforcing their fear, I think you are better off not giving into them.

When did I say anything about mollycoddling? There is a distinct difference between coddling and offering reassurance. My girl was always better if she had someone to lie next to or close by. If she got very frightened I would sit next to her and put my hand on her. It helped. I never cuddled her or made baby noises at her or did those high-pitched noises people tend to do when they are being sympathetic. THOSE encourage fear. It's like saying to your dog "I'm scared, too. Definitely something to freak out about." But calm reassurance does not reinforce fearful behaviour. And the chief reason why is because you can't positively reinforce fear. It's a response to an aversive stimulus.

Here's several blog entries by Patricia McConnell with her views on dogs and thunderstorms: http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/categ...phobia-in-dogs/

Edited to fix links.

In some ways, this is how Emmy gets comfort from Charlie if she gets frighten. She will get close to him as possible and use his calm energy to not get frantic. Charlie is so calm that that energy soothes her.

[mantis]

Sorry but I disagree. A dog doesn't know the difference between mollycoddling & reassurance, all they know is that you are paying attention to them because they are scared. I used to do that with Kenny, but it didn't stop him panting, shaking & whining, since I have started ignoring him & sending him to bed, he is much better. But we all have different ideas on what works for our dogs, so at least new owners are getting many different approaches to try & see which works best on their dogs.

Sure, that's your prerogative.

As McConnell says in her blog, petting may or may not help them cope with it, but it certainly won't make it worse. As she points out, fear is so aversive in the first place that it's very hard to "reinforce" it with anything positive to make it something an animal would voluntarily repeat. McConnell's blog articles are in fact referenced where appropriate. There is science behind what she says. It's been researched.

Kaz, McConnell also points out that one thing that certainly does lower cortisol levels in anxious dogs is the presence of other dogs. I would venture to suggest what you find so effective is a combination of positive distractions and a group of dogs that aren't bothered by storms. We tried that one on my last dog as well, and it didn't work. Nothing did. You could only make it slightly better for her so that she wasn't shaking quite as much.

I read the paper about the anti-static cape she refers to (it has been published, now) and it didn't make any difference, but wearing a cape of any sort did. The dogs were still afraid, but panted less when they were wearing a close-fitting cape.

Again disagree, with some dogs you are telling them it's OK to be scared & run to your owner to stop the bad noise. You keep quoting Mc Connell, but she is just one dog owner who has written a book, I'm sure Cesar Milan would disagree with some of her methods.

That's why I said that us all offering up different approaches is a good thing, because new dog owners get to try different methods.

[zoozoo]

Zeus and I were completely oblivious to the storm last night.

His first experience with thunder was the big storm in March and he didnt cope very well at all. Spent the whole night whinging and refused to go outside in the morning. He hates the rain!

[bedazzledx2]

Mmmmm not so sure of that. I know thats what we are always taught...that you are just re-inforcing their fear. Problem is they are in an emotional state in which there is no reasoning and definately no operant behaviour going on. I had a kelpie who was terrified of thunderstorms and I never 'mollycoddled' her. I did however, allow her to go under the bed where she felt safe and she would come out in her own time.

Last night was a doozy and my Aussie, who is never scared, crept right up to my pillow (he normally sleeps at the foot of the bed) I put my arm around him and we both drifted off to sleep. I don't see the problem in that.

I don't find it very funny when dogs are that stressed out. I had a thunder and firework phobic dog and I stayed home every NYE so I could look after her. I always tried to be understanding of her and not brush her fear off. It's the least I could do considering I have a feeling I was the one that taught her to be afraid. I tried a lot of things to desensitise or counter-condition and nothing worked. If staying up with her all night helped her I would have gladly done it. I have for other things, including a sudden mite infestation that resulted in me getting massive mite welts.

If you mollycoddle them, that is just re-inforcing their fear, I think you are better off not giving into them, I make Kenny go & lie on the couch/his bed/my bed & stay there. Cuddling him & letting him stick his head under my armpit didn't stop him whining & panting, but eventually when he is lying down he goes to sleep, because he knows he's not allowed to get off said piece of furniture

[corvus]

McConnell isn't just one dog owner who has written a book. She has a doctorate in ethology. She studied human verbal communication towards domestic animals. She also practised as a behaviour consultant for many years. CM is just one dog owner who has written a book, I'm afraid.

This is kind of complicated stuff, but the thing is you can't reinforce emotions. You reinforce behaviours. So it's possible for attention to result in something that looks like reinforcing fear and I'm not questioning what folks have experienced. But it's really not that simple. Behaviour can influence emotion and emotion can influence behaviour but they are not the same thing. When you reinforce a behaviour (or punish one) you are not automatically also reinforcing or punishing the emotion that drives the behaviour. And that is all assuming that the dog is in control of that behaviour in the first place. If they are just reacting they can't learn anything from reinforcement. This is why counter-conditioning works to decrease aggression towards something, for example. You can reward a dog WHILE they are being aggressive (if they'll accept the reward) and actually see a decrease in the aggression over time. The dog associates the trigger with rewards and so it no longer triggers an aggressive response. Steven Lindsay was talking about this when he was in Sydney as well.

How can you be telling the dog it's okay to be scared and run to their owner to stop the bad noise if the bad noise does not actually stop?

[PuddleDuck]

Doofus is scared witless of storms. The irritating part is when I got him from the shelter he couldn't have cared less about them. Our old dog, Kerry, could not cope with storms at all, she lost it entirely. Over the first 6 months of having Doof she steadily taught him that storms were just the worst thing, doomsday, end of the world material. Then (little cow!) she promptly went deaf and stopped caring aged around 17. We moved out and Kez stayed with mum, happy and content through storms until she went to the bridge aged 20 yrs 11 months....Doofus is still a pain in the butt with them.

If storms happen during the day while we are here we jump up and go running outside with a tennis ball which is pretty much the only thing that can get through to Doof when he's losing it. He'll happily play out there, but he is pretty stressed while he does it. We try to make it a fun thing and the toys do get through to him somehow.

If its at night, he's long since learnt that if he wakes me up I'll murder him where he stands so he wakes up poor hubby instead! Unfortunately for hubby Doofs method is to get up on his back legs, lay his front legs over to the far side of hubby's back/chest and drag his nails across digging them in all the way. Hubby usually wakes up screaming, but in Doof's defense, it works!!!!

Another thing that is interesting, if Doof is really panicking and we ignore him as we do if we dont go out for a distracting play, he'll get a squeaky toy and go mental on it - squeak-squeak-squeak frantically. Then, as he calms down it slows... squeak.... squeak............... squeak.................. squeak..................................... squeeeeeeeeaaaaaaakkkk until he finally calms down and falls asleep with the toy in his mouth. Its like a puppy pacifier (for a 9 year old dog!)

[~JoLu~]

My two didn't react much at all. Lulu used to get a little stressed, however I didn't hear a peep out of her when the thunder struck. She was tucked up safely in her crate though. I could feel Jonty snuggle up a little closer to me

The cat however, did a flying supercat leap off the bed when the first big boom went

[Nekhbet]

my dogs could never care less, any dogs staying over soon realise there is nothing to fuss about when they see my 3 legs up asleep.

If your dog IS hurting itself please go to the vet, get something like ACP tablets and crate the dog for its own safety. I've seen a dog go through a glass pane, and had one of my own do it (thankfully smashed the frame and didnt cut himself) it's not nice and they can bleed to death quickly if they sever a major artery.