How Does One Become A Registered Breeder?

[Gayle.]

There are quite a number of dogs she's bred doing extremely well in agility and obedience...not sure about herding, I don't really take much notice of that. The vast majority of pups bred by registered breeders end up in pet homes, so why shouldn't excellent temperament be a valuable critieria to aim for....along with everything else?

Her and her husband imported Bensons sire from Sweden, so they could introduce different lines into their breeding program. To be honest, I don't think that's a hallmark of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

She is actually a very highly respected authority on dogs and animal psychology. I thought you may have met her in your previous occupation.....she travels a lot and lectures all around the country and overseas. Aaside from being a really nice person, she is extremely interesting to talk to.

[Greytmate]

There are quite a number of dogs she's bred doing extremely well in agility and obedience...not sure about herding, I don't really take much notice of that. The vast majority of pups bred by registered breeders end up in pet homes, so why shouldn't excellent temperament be a valuable critieria to aim for....along with everything else?

Her and her husband imported Bensons sire from Sweden, so they could introduce different lines into their breeding program. To be honest, I don't think that's a hallmark of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

She is actually a very highly respected authority on dogs and animal psychology. I thought you may have met her in your previous occupation.....she travels a lot and lectures all around the country and overseas. Aaside from being a really nice person, she is extremely interesting to talk to.

I am not saying she is not a good breeder.

What I am trying to work out is how you would aim for excellence without having something to measure against. How you could say that your dogs are better than anyone else's.

If she is a professional working in dog psychology, she may be measuring her dogs against something that I am unaware of.

Temperament is a valuable criteria, but you don't 'aim' for it. You need to know what temperament traits you are aiming for, and be able to distinguish the differences between adequate and excellent.

[Kelza]

I would recommend that Jane purchase a male puppy from a reputable, experienced breeder who is prepared to help her, she should show the dog, title it if she can and only then think about looking for a bitch and obtaining a prefix. Although showing has its detractors it is one of the best ways to acquire a thorough grounding in your breed of choice. She needs to see as many representatives of the breed as possible, read about the breed's history, study the breed standard and learn how to interpret it. If she's interested in a working breed she should also endeavour to see the dogs carrying out the tasks for which they were originally bred. She needs to know what health problems exist and how to avoid them and this includes researching different bloodlines both past and present and understanding how and what they've contributed to the breed. She needs to learn about canine anatomy and behaviour, the canine reproductive system, about mating, gestation and whelping and postpartum care of the bitch and puppies. She needs to be present when a bitch is actually giving birth and learn what to do if any problems arise.

If she wants to become an outstanding breeder who strives to produce healthy dogs that excel in conformation, type and temperament the best way to do it properly is to find a mentor and put in the years of time and effort required.

I think this is excellent advice.

I have been lucky enough to have grown up assisting with breeding and exhibiting my Samoyeds from a young age. Getting involved and learning before jumping in is essential.

A responsibile breeder to me is someone who doesn't breed for the hell out it! They take time to ensure their dogs are health checked, hip/elbow scored (larger breeds) and use dogs that are too. It is vital to understand the breed and it's history, as all responsible breeders should be breeding for the betterment of their breed. Outstanding dogs can be top show dogs and also be excellent in obedience, agility, herding etc. It is important to look at confirmation, soundness in movement and temperatment. Look at the lines, understand what is behind their dogs and ones they are considering using, talk to others understand if there are any problems that are coming from a line in particular, understand the coefficient of inbreeding etc.

Knowledge is the key to successful breeding, this is gained by asking questions, researching and experiencing. I think it is imporatant to know your bitches weaknesses & strengths and put it to a dog that will assist in producing a better dog.

[jackie_a1]

Hey guys,

I've read through all your posts and they are all informative. I never really knew the process of how one becomes a registered breeder. So from what I've read 'most' breeders show their dogs first.

Like someone mentioned before what about the working lines? Is coat colour etc less important for working lines when being bred? Seeing as they're are bred for their capabilities? How do you know that your working dog is an exceptional specimen?

[Larrikin]

We also have to consider the ethics that we have to abide by when breeding.

I shall breed only for the purpose of improving the standard of the breed, and not for the pet

market or any other commercial purpose.

Unfortunatly there are many registered breeders not breeding for the right reasons, and breeding for the pet market.

Edited May 12, 2010 by all4gsd

[mr.mister]

I shall breed only for the purpose of improving the standard of the breed, and not for the pet

market or any other commercial purpose.

Agreed!

I personally do not agree with breeding for the sole aim to produce pet quality puppies, as there are thousands of animals in shelters dying everyday that would make wonderful pets. Whether they are show or working lines, they need to be bred to improve the breed (this means considering ALL aspects from temperament to health to conformation to whatever) - otherwise, how could one justify breeding more animals when we aleady have a surplus?

[Janba]

Hey guys,

I've read through all your posts and they are all informative. I never really knew the process of how one becomes a registered breeder. So from what I've read 'most' breeders show their dogs first.

Like someone mentioned before what about the working lines? Is coat colour etc less important for working lines when being bred? Seeing as they're are bred for their capabilities? How do you know that your working dog is an exceptional specimen?

Coat colour and conformation are less important for working dogs. Conformation to a standard is also not a criteria but if the dog has bad conformation faults it is less likely to be a sound worker. The dog that is an excellent working specimen is the dog works very well at what it is bred for, wins trials etc. Selecting a working stud dog is no different to selecting one for the show dogs, you pick a dog that is an excellent worker and is strong where your bitch is weak in their working ability as for comformation you would select an excellent conformed dog who compliments you bitches faults. The main difference is that the selection is based on working ability and soundness not a comformation standard.

Breeding for working ability and breeding for showing are not all that different in there criteria. One you are trying to breed the dog that fits the standard perfectly and the other trying to breed the dog that works perfectly.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Janba

[Black Bronson]

There are quite a number of dogs she's bred doing extremely well in agility and obedience...not sure about herding, I don't really take much notice of that. The vast majority of pups bred by registered breeders end up in pet homes, so why shouldn't excellent temperament be a valuable critieria to aim for....along with everything else?

Her and her husband imported Bensons sire from Sweden, so they could introduce different lines into their breeding program. To be honest, I don't think that's a hallmark of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

She is actually a very highly respected authority on dogs and animal psychology. I thought you may have met her in your previous occupation.....she travels a lot and lectures all around the country and overseas. Aaside from being a really nice person, she is extremely interesting to talk to.

I am not saying she is not a good breeder.

What I am trying to work out is how you would aim for excellence without having something to measure against. How you could say that your dogs are better than anyone else's.

If she is a professional working in dog psychology, she may be measuring her dogs against something that I am unaware of.

Temperament is a valuable criteria, but you don't 'aim' for it. You need to know what temperament traits you are aiming for, and be able to distinguish the differences between adequate and excellent.

I agree with the bolded comment. If the dogs are not in competition against others in some way, it boils down to taking the breeders word for the quality. It's not uncommon for some breeders to tell buyers that they breed the best dogs in the country untested and unverified against others

[Black Bronson]

Hey guys,

I've read through all your posts and they are all informative. I never really knew the process of how one becomes a registered breeder. So from what I've read 'most' breeders show their dogs first.

Like someone mentioned before what about the working lines? Is coat colour etc less important for working lines when being bred? Seeing as they're are bred for their capabilities? How do you know that your working dog is an exceptional specimen?

It may depend on the breed of working dog with colour, but using the GSD as an example, providing the colour is acceptable by the breed standards it doesn't matter. Working lines litters are generally parented by dogs who have excelled in working roles having the genetics to pass on. Sometimes Schutzhund champions, police dogs of extrodinary ability, herding dogs and working roles where nerve, hardness, stability and trainabilty is tested.

[Black Bronson]

We also have to consider the ethics that we have to abide by when breeding.

I shall breed only for the purpose of improving the standard of the breed, and not for the pet

market or any other commercial purpose.

Unfortunatly there are many registered breeders not breeding for the right reasons, and breeding for the pet market.

Just for interest, how do you improve the standard of the breed without Schutzhund testing your breeding stock???. How do you produce security/protection dogs which the breed standards determine is capable of this line of work???

[Bindii]

We also have to consider the ethics that we have to abide by when breeding.

I shall breed only for the purpose of improving the standard of the breed, and not for the pet

market or any other commercial purpose.

Unfortunatly there are many registered breeders not breeding for the right reasons, and breeding for the pet market.

While i do understand this, and I know that it is part of the code of ethics, it is something that I have heard questioned on a number of occasions.

I feel that provided they're health tested, and breeders are willing to be there for puppy buyers as any ethical breeder should, and the breeders breed to the standard and compete in conformation showing/dog sports etc to know quality is good.

There are backyard breeders that do none of that and they're providing people with poorly bred pups, I'd much prefer someone 'over breeding' (in accordance to the COE) good quality dogs than unhealthy ones or cross breeds.

While I agree that there are plenty of dogs in shelters, it is often preached (and rightly so) on DOL that purebreds are a good choice for many for their predictability in terms of temperament and requirement - I can understand that one might chose to purchase a purebred puppy over a rescue dog for this reason (and in particular a puppy - so that all training and upbringing history can be consistent)

Why then, should it be so difficult for someone to purchase a puppy that they simply want as a pet? I still believe that one persons idea of 'ethical' is different to the next (which is irrelevant really in this case because it is the ANKC code of ethics that a breeder must abide by.) but personally, i feel that provided all other means are met (health tests, ongoing support etc) then breeding to the pet market, within reason, does have it's positives. When i say within reason - i mean i'm not referring to someone breeding hundreds of litters a year, but perhaps it is a small scale breeder, who does not at that time require (or at that time cannot house) another dog, but they have many puppy enquiries.... i just don't think they should have to justify that. They have perfectly good quality health tested dogs, why can't they provide pet homes with such quality, rather then sending them away where they may be tempted to go to BYBer or petshop? ETA: to cover my back here, the answer to that question is the COE... just something i don't 100% agree with and i'm only raising this to see what others think.

2nd Edit: I also don't know how my idea could be controlled anyway because there are large and small scale breeders. It's a tricky one!

Edited May 12, 2010 by Bindii

[dancinbcs]

SBT who decides whether the dog is worthy a specimen to be bred from? Also say Jane does this. She shows her dogs and learns all there is to possibly learn (for arguments sake) then what?

Even after 20 years of successful showing and breeding, Jane will still not know all there is to learn. Novice breeders realise they know nothing. After about 3 or 4 years they think they know everything. If they stick with breeding, a few years later they will start to realise how much they still have to learn. If you are a truly dedicated breeder you never stop learning.

I consider anyone with less than 20 years experience a relative newcomer to the dog world. You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed. At the first National Border Collie show in 2006 we had a photo taken of all the exhibitors with 20+ years in the breed. There were about 50 breeders in that photo, so newcomers have a long way to go to gain that sort of knowledge and experience.

The best person to decide if your dog is worthy of breeding is your mentor. A mentor should have at least 15-20 years in the breed and have successfully produced numerous titled dogs in whatever field you wish to pursue ie. showing, trialling, herding, retrieving, etc. It is preferable if the your mentor has produced dogs titled in conformation as well as other activities appropriate to the breed.

IMO this a very pompous statement, and is the reason a lot of newbies give up.

Not pompous at all. Just a fact. As the next sentence states "You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed." You simply cannot acquire this level of knowledge in under 20 years.

It is up to us experienced breeders to mentor and encourage the newbies. I don't understand the reluctance of breeders to trust a promising newbie with a good puppy. Sometimes they let you down but sometimes that newbie goes on to become one of the stalwarts of the breed. It is very satisfying to see someone get off to a good start with a dog of your breeding. I make a point of doing whatever I can to encourage keen new exhibitors and breeders that are trying to do the right thing. I was lucky enough to start with a fabulous experienced mentor and fully intend to continue to pass on the breed knowledge that was entrusted to me.

It does make me mad though when judges seem to assume that newbies haven't paid their dues yet and therefore don't deserve to win. It wasn't like that when I started. If you had a good dog and it showed reasonably well, you won, no matter who you were. This is the reason so many newbies give up. We tell them to show their dogs before they breed but if they never win because they are not well known, they won't stick around for long. It is getting harder and harder to encourage newbies into the show world because it is so hard for them to win anything at all.

[RallyValley]

Maybe because I am such a newb people will set me wrong but when people say "I breed for working, not confirmation" Surely an animal with correct confirmation will be better at working then an animal without? I know for dogs attitude/instinct comes into it too

[Bindii]

I consider anyone with less than 20 years experience a relative newcomer to the dog world. You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed. At the first National Border Collie show in 2006 we had a photo taken of all the exhibitors with 20+ years in the breed. There were about 50 breeders in that photo, so newcomers have a long way to go to gain that sort of knowledge and experience.

IMO this a very pompous statement, and is the reason a lot of newbies give up.

Not pompous at all. Just a fact. As the next sentence states "You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed." You simply cannot acquire this level of knowledge in under 20 years.

It does make me mad though when judges seem to assume that newbies haven't paid their dues yet and therefore don't deserve to win. It wasn't like that when I started. If you had a good dog and it showed reasonably well, you won, no matter who you were. This is the reason so many newbies give up. We tell them to show their dogs before they breed but if they never win because they are not well known, they won't stick around for long. It is getting harder and harder to encourage newbies into the show world because it is so hard for them to win anything at all.

Agree, the above fact is very discouraging.

On the other hand, I am new, and I'm more than happy to hear I've got a lot to learn, and will continue learning for years and years (20+ years!), and you know what? That really excites me! I really like learning, and love a good challenge.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Bindii

[Greytmate]

Maybe because I am such a newb people will set me wrong but when people say "I breed for working, not confirmation" Surely an animal with correct confirmation will be better at working then an animal without? I know for dogs attitude/instinct comes into it too

Not necessarily, although in theory that is how it works.

In practice you may find that a dog that is slightly larger or smaller than the standard may be the most excellent worker.

The only way to test for working ability is to give the dog work.

[RallyValley]

Maybe because I am such a newb people will set me wrong but when people say "I breed for working, not confirmation" Surely an animal with correct confirmation will be better at working then an animal without? I know for dogs attitude/instinct comes into it too

Not necessarily, although in theory that is how it works.

In practice you may find that a dog that is slightly larger or smaller than the standard may be the most excellent worker.

The only way to test for working ability is to give the dog work.

Damn my horse mind to hell. Coming from that background has had disadvantages!

[dancinbcs]

Maybe because I am such a newb people will set me wrong but when people say "I breed for working, not confirmation" Surely an animal with correct confirmation will be better at working then an animal without? I know for dogs attitude/instinct comes into it too

You are correct. A dog with the wrong conformation cannot do the work it is supposed to do. The breed standards for the working breeds were written to describe a dog that has the physical attributed required for the particular work it bred for. Cosmetic points like colour, ear carriage, etc, are of no importance in a dog bred purely for work but the basic structure of the dog still needs to be correct.

Working breeders do need to remember that if they only breed for working ability and completely forget about conformation they will end up with dogs that no longer look anything like the breed they are supposed to be. There are plenty of crossbred dogs that work well but it doesn't make them good examples of a particular breed.

[Janba]

Maybe because I am such a newb people will set me wrong but when people say "I breed for working, not confirmation" Surely an animal with correct confirmation will be better at working then an animal without? I know for dogs attitude/instinct comes into it too

You are correct. A dog with the wrong conformation cannot do the work it is supposed to do. The breed standards for the working breeds were written to describe a dog that has the physical attributed required for the particular work it bred for. Cosmetic points like colour, ear carriage, etc, are of no importance in a dog bred purely for work but the basic structure of the dog still needs to be correct.

Working breeders do need to remember that if they only breed for working ability and completely forget about conformation they will end up with dogs that no longer look anything like the breed they are supposed to be. There are plenty of crossbred dogs that work well but it doesn't make them good examples of a particular breed.

And a dog with perfect conformation can be useless at working. Basic structure does need to be correct and a dog with serious conformation faults is unlikely to be able to work well and stay sound so unlikely to be bred from. I know one working breeding who recently culled a bitch from his breeding program because she had a bit of a questionable rear end. This bitch was an open 3 sheep trial dog.

[Greytmate]

You are correct. A dog with the wrong conformation cannot do the work it is supposed to do. The breed standards for the working breeds were written to describe a dog that has the physical attributed required for the particular work it bred for. Cosmetic points like colour, ear carriage, etc, are of no importance in a dog bred purely for work but the basic structure of the dog still needs to be correct.

In some breeds ear carriage is important for work.

Working breeders do need to remember that if they only breed for working ability and completely forget about conformation they will end up with dogs that no longer look anything like the breed they are supposed to be. There are plenty of crossbred dogs that work well but it doesn't make them good examples of a particular breed.

Not at all. Look at racing greyhounds. They look exactly like greyhounds are supposed to look like. Yet they are only ever tested for working ability. By breeding for work, you end up with a dog that has the conformation to do that work. By breeding to a written standard, more extreme looks have started appearing in some breeds, and those dogs can no longer do the work as well as they were originally bred for.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Greytmate

[Bilbo Baggins]

SBT who decides whether the dog is worthy a specimen to be bred from? Also say Jane does this. She shows her dogs and learns all there is to possibly learn (for arguments sake) then what?

Even after 20 years of successful showing and breeding, Jane will still not know all there is to learn. Novice breeders realise they know nothing. After about 3 or 4 years they think they know everything. If they stick with breeding, a few years later they will start to realise how much they still have to learn. If you are a truly dedicated breeder you never stop learning.

I consider anyone with less than 20 years experience a relative newcomer to the dog world. You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed. At the first National Border Collie show in 2006 we had a photo taken of all the exhibitors with 20+ years in the breed. There were about 50 breeders in that photo, so newcomers have a long way to go to gain that sort of knowledge and experience.

The best person to decide if your dog is worthy of breeding is your mentor. A mentor should have at least 15-20 years in the breed and have successfully produced numerous titled dogs in whatever field you wish to pursue ie. showing, trialling, herding, retrieving, etc. It is preferable if the your mentor has produced dogs titled in conformation as well as other activities appropriate to the breed.

IMO this a very pompous statement, and is the reason a lot of newbies give up.

Not pompous at all. Just a fact. As the next sentence states "You need to have observed several generations for their full lifespan to really know a breed." You simply cannot acquire this level of knowledge in under 20 years.

It is up to us experienced breeders to mentor and encourage the newbies. I don't understand the reluctance of breeders to trust a promising newbie with a good puppy. Sometimes they let you down but sometimes that newbie goes on to become one of the stalwarts of the breed. It is very satisfying to see someone get off to a good start with a dog of your breeding. I make a point of doing whatever I can to encourage keen new exhibitors and breeders that are trying to do the right thing. I was lucky enough to start with a fabulous experienced mentor and fully intend to continue to pass on the breed knowledge that was entrusted to me.

It does make me mad though when judges seem to assume that newbies haven't paid their dues yet and therefore don't deserve to win. It wasn't like that when I started. If you had a good dog and it showed reasonably well, you won, no matter who you were. This is the reason so many newbies give up. We tell them to show their dogs before they breed but if they never win because they are not well known, they won't stick around for long. It is getting harder and harder to encourage newbies into the show world because it is so hard for them to win anything at all.

Yes it is very sad when face judging occurs when quite often a non face has the better dog.

Or the face's dog limps around the ring but still gets awarded.