Pup And Cat Fighting For Dominance....

[Bluefairy]

I have a 15 week female pug pup and a 4yr old DSH cat.

Shadow the cat, is usually a laid back follower, with a few pups under her belt she gave in to. But....

...since Zoe the Pug has been here about 6 weeks....there has been issues over who is dominant and no one wins.....I think. This is what happens in a typical day:

Zoe wakes me at 6:30am, I put her harness on (the fences aren't finished yet) and take her through the laundry, where the cat sleeps (Zoe sleeps in the lounge in a crate), and I let the cat out and take Zoe outside, stopping her from jumping on the Shadow.

When Zoe comes in she looks for Shadow, if she is on the back of the lounge chair she leaves her alone, if she is on the floor she chases her and the cat jumps on the chair.

After Zoe and Shadow have breakfast, in separate rooms, the cat will either stay on the back of the lounge or sit on an old milk can or something else that high, and swish her tail so that Zoe will jump up for it, which usually means the cat gets bitten if Zoe catches it (not hard but enough to make the cat jump back on the lounge chair).

If Zoe ignores the cat because she is busy playing with her toys, or preoccupied etc, the cat will jump down and swish her tail at her. If this doesn't work, she will go up to Zoe and lay on the floor.....all the while tense and ready to run. If Zoe decides to chase her, sometimes she catches Shadow and will stand on her, and I have seen her hump her while holding her ear, all the while the cat is not moving whether the ear is being held or not. Most times its just a chase and the cat always escapes.

At first we believed the cat got what she deserved (to be chased I mean) because of the constant teasing of the dog. We have since been told its these two fighting to get dominance of the other.....using what ever method works....

The cat has now started to urinate on the lino floors, I was told this was part of the dominance issue too. Which is driving us insane, the dog I can understand as she is only a pup and is almost TT.

The cat urinating has nothing to do with litter boxes, litter, UTI, etc etc, we've have checked all that, and its fine. We have been stopping or trying to stop Zoe chasing the cat, when we see her on top of the cat we pull her off....but all we seem to be doing is saying NO to Zoe all day

Can someone help us before we go mad?

BF

Edited May 10, 2010 by Bluefairy

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

pump up water pistol? I know it's more water but at least it doesn't smell.

I think I have a stray cat peeing on my front door. Not happy.

Will start setting big rat traps if that keeps up.

[Simply Grand]

Hey Aidan, you mentioned in my clicker training thread that you can teach the dog and the cat to be best friends Ok, maybe not but to accept each other as part of the same pack.

I know it was complicated, but care to try and explain to us tormented cat owners?

[persephone]

Your pup needs YOU to teach it NOT to chase the cat being a pug- if the cat does one day retaliate- a puggy pop eye could be badly injured

I do not believe the cat is purposely swishing her tail to tease the dog... cats swish their tails when angry/anxious/ undecided.... I also don't really believe everything is about 'dominance' our cats and dogs play chasey... jump on each other , bite each other gently.... they are all adult , and have been doing this for years!

The urinating.... the cat 'may' be marking... she may be urinating where th epup has been, and there is still a smell... she may be urinating on the floor because pup is in her way when she does try & get to her tray....

Put up some baby gates. so cat and dog can have some space.

Spend more time training the pup, perhaps, so she has something else to think about? Does she concentrate well when you do her obedience routines ? How is she with her on lead walking training? Does she still look for the cat then?

[spottychick]

I agree with persephone. The cat is not swishing its tail to tease the dog. There doesn't seem to be anything in your description that indicates the cat "deserves" anything or is doing anything wrong. It sounds to me like the cat is trying to get to know the puppy but is, quite sensibly, being careful/cautious about it. The weeing in the floor maybe a nervous reaction - she has a new animal in the house and is unsure of her own safety. From what you said, the cat has been great with dogs before so she knows how to interact with them (not 'give in to them') and is probably just trying to suss out the new kid.

I think it's interesting that neither animal is being hurt by the other - or is the cat getting injured when Zoe has hold of her? If it was me I would be reassuring the cat and working with the puppy to calm her down around the cat. Did the other dogs play chasey with Shadow?

[Jigsaw]

The urination in inappropriate locations is possibly linked to stress caused by the pugs excessive attentions or possibly the kitty litter is in a place where the dog is nearby and the cat is finding the location unpleasant and will no longer use that place. See if you can relocate the kitty litter where the cat can have some peace and privacy.

I have baby gates so my cat can have some free access to the house without being harassed by the dog. Although it sounds like both your cat and dog are being relatively reserved with each other it doesn't take much for one to step over the line and as Persephone said eyes are very much a target as are noses.

My dog will respond to commands around the cat but if I'm not there or she thinks I'm not there she'll poke the cat with her nose and generally be a nuisance trying to provoke a response and usually gets one - a swipe on the nose. I would be making sure your pug gives Shadow some space, feed your cat in a high place or in another room to the dog, put kitty litter in a room the dog has no access to. You could use a water spray or work on reinforcing the dog for doing something other than paying the cat attention.

[Aidan3]

I'd have to see it to make an informed comment. If it weren't for the urination (and a couple of other things) I would guess that they were playing, my GSD and one of my cats do exactly this - but it's important to note that in their relationship there is no biting or forceful pinning (or urination, but interestingly they do seem to have 'bases' where they will always leave each other alone). As others have mentioned the swishing tail can be a sign of anxiety or anger.

I do not believe that cats and dogs 'fight' for dominance and there is no real evidence to support what you have been told. They might try to establish a territory, or one might see the other as prey, or they might dislike each other but I doubt you will ever get a stable or contextual hierarchy and it's not particularly useful to use a dominance model to diagnose or treat this sort of problem and can do more harm than good, I'll be blunt about that.

Saxonpup has asked about something I have mentioned in another thread which might be a little too complicated to explain here but I'll try. You can positively reinforce calm responses and teach each animal that the presence of the other is a 'cue' for these calm responses. So basically, you teach them some calm behaviours, then reinforce those behaviours while they are together. Even better if you can have them relax together in close proximity but I think actually achieving that can be difficult without someone who is confident that they can do it without creating stress or avoidance. By getting them to relax around each other they soon start to accept each other as part of the family.

It can also help to teach the cat to escape somewhere high around the dog, so the dog isn't learning to chase. Give the cat plenty of escape options, even if it means setting up some props (a step ladder, for e.g)

If you are familiar with clicker training you can attempt to 'capture 'these calm behaviours as they occur. They don't need to be on cue. If you see something you like, mark it with the clicker, then reward it with food. You can do this for the dog and the cat also, although it's not as easy with cats because you normally need to control their feeding to accommodate training (but worth a try, some cats are big gutses). Some things you might click for:

- not chasing

- sitting

- laying quietly

- not swishing the tail (cat)

- pausing or being still around each other (cat or dog)

It sounds like the dog is playing (although I can't tell for sure without seeing it), but the cat is not seeing it the same way. I would definitely step in and remove pup. It might be worth keeping pup on a leash around the cat for a while, just until the cat settles down and until you can reinforce some nice, calm behaviours in the dog around the cat.

[Bluefairy]

Thanks for the replies,

I'm glad its not a dominance issue. I was worried about that, as they usually escalate into a battle.

Shadow is fed in a separate room and her food and water is on top of the washing machine, her bed is on top of the chest freezer and her litter tray is on a cabinet the height of the chest freezer. So everything is out of Zoe's way, Zoe hardly ever goes into the laundry except to get outside, so Shadow pretty much has it to herself. Zoe has her food and water on the floor of the lounge, and Shadow is always going over to it to see what she has, or play in the water. Shadow has tons of high places she can get away from Zoe, I have always made sure cats have an escape area....Shadow has lots of these areas all over the house.

Using a water gun on Shadow doesn't work, we have tried it in the past. She actually loves water, and will stand there while you spray her. When its hot we put water in the laundry sink and she has a ball playing and laying in the water. The spray might work on Zoe though.

For the last 2 days Shadow has urinated on the floor next to the cabinet with the litter tray, the floor is clean when I put her to bed and urinated on when I get her out in the morning. So Shadow is not doing it out of fear of Zoe, frustration or anything other than just doing it. Her litter tray is emptied out everyday, sometimes several times, and it is thoroughly scrubbed and washed every week with new litter. We have tried different litter but she only likes and will use this one.

Neither dog or cat get hurt, I always check when they 'play' and yes I get the impression it is play....well I did until I got told it was a dominance thing....I still didn't get it, as neither will cry out, and it just seems like harmless play. Shadow will sometimes tap Zoe on the head when she is sniffing Shadows feet, but never with her claws out, its just a tap she would do when playing with a toy.

They can be very calm near each other, and often they will sleep either side of one of my daughters (13 and 20) when they are laying on the lounge. Zoe asleep one side of them, and Shadow on the other. When Shadow comes over to get in a position to sleep, Zoe will put her head up and watch, then as soon as Shadow has laid down, Zoe will go back to sleep.

When I watch the two of them together, Zoe will hold back and watch for clues from Shadow....as soon as shadow is ready (and believe me Shadow has her eyes on Zoe all the time), Shadow will run and Zoe will chase. If Shadow just walks past Zoe, Zoe will walk with her calm as anything. It seems as though Shadow triggers the chasing game. They don't chase each other all the time, but most of it.

Shadow always instigates the chase, Zoe will be happily playing, then when Shadow is in a mood to play, she will sit where Zoe can sniff her but not touch and flick her tail.....I have seen her move her body into a position where her tail is hanging down and she can gently flick it. If she is flicking it and Zoe can't reach it, she will turn round until she can still see Zoe but Zoe can touch her tail. She used to do this to encourage a kitten we used to have to play. If Zoe doesn't get the hint....Shadow will jump down from the lounge and jump right next to Zoe, then spring up back on the other chair. Zoe will get startled and run (of course she can't reach Shadow), then Shadow will continually run from floor to chair, to laundry, back to lounge, etc etc, all the while Zoe is running on the floor doing zoomies (pugs run really fast round and round furniture) watching the cat, put never catching her. Most times Zoe isn't even chasing the cat, she has got into zoomy mode and does her own thing.

And yes Shadow has done this same thing to the other dogs we had, but she stayed away from them as they were a bigger dog. Zoe is smaller than the cat, and I think Shadow feels a little more able to play with her because of her size.

I don't mind the playing together, and I am stopping Zoe from standing over her or jumping up at her, I'm hoping this gets less.

But I am anxious to stop the cat peeing on the floor, this is really getting to me more than anything else. I don't think its a fear or frustration thing....as I have seen Zoe watch Shadow (and she knew Zoe was there) urinate on the floor, then she will try and cover it up.....if it was for the reasons mentioned, surely she wouldn't have Zoe watch her, she wouldn't wait around while she is 'covering it up' and then just walk away????? I feel its more a territorial thing, like "see this is my area" but why do it in her area in the first place when Zoe isn't there, hardly ever goes in there, and its Shadows anyway. There is nothing of Zoe's in the laundry, its all Shadows.

BF

[persephone]

Why not put a litter tray on the floor at night, and see what she does? Is she only doing the inappropriate urinating at night? Does she poo in the tray ?

[Michelleva]

BF, I really think its not dominance at all. I think your cat is scared of Zoe, she is stressed and thats why she's peeing in the wrong places. If she is weeing in the same places, I'd put some extra litter trays in those places and see if she will go there instead. I have a serial pisser here too, and he is triggered by stress. After 2 weeks of having a new pup our boy ended with a UTI, he was doing the same as your cat weeing all over the place, but he also had blood in the urine.

You need to reassure the cat to let her know you still love her, try giving her a massage to relax her. It sounds weird but my stressy boy loves it.

[Staranais]

But I am anxious to stop the cat peeing on the floor, this is really getting to me more than anything else. I don't think its a fear or frustration thing....as I have seen Zoe watch Shadow (and she knew Zoe was there) urinate on the floor, then she will try and cover it up.....if it was for the reasons mentioned, surely she wouldn't have Zoe watch her, she wouldn't wait around while she is 'covering it up' and then just walk away????? I feel its more a territorial thing, like "see this is my area" but why do it in her area in the first place when Zoe isn't there, hardly ever goes in there, and its Shadows anyway. There is nothing of Zoe's in the laundry, its all Shadows.

Stress is one of the biggest triggers for feline lower urinary tract disorder (the catch-all name we give to just about anything wrong with the feline LUT, often manifesting as inappropriate feline urination). Is the cat straining at all when she does urinate? Or passing any drops of blood when she does go?

Feeding them wet food can help (not biscuits), making sure they have plenty of litter boxes, and that the litter boxes are clean & in safe locations can help reduce the inappropriate urination.

Could also be that she is just marking territory - yes, girl kitties do it too! Again, not "dominance" as such, just a stressed kitty.

I'd guess your kitty is really not enjoying having the pup around, even if she appears to be enjoying baiting the pup. I'd restrict your dog's access to the cat. Feliway might be worth a whirl too, but is $$$, and probably won't be a solution by itself.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Staranais

[Jigsaw]

The other question that springs to mind is what are you cleaning the urine up with? If you are cleaning it up with something like bleach she may well be marking her territory over the bleach. If Zoe has access to go through the laundry during the day it may still be enough to stress Shadow enough not to use her litter tray. Just the association of the dog in the area not her physical presence can put a cat off her litter tray.

[persephone]

If Zoe has access to go through the laundry during the day it may still be enough to stress Shadow enough not to use her litter tray. Just the association of the dog in the area not her physical presence can put a cat off her litter tray.

*nods*

has Shadow an outdoor enclosure where she can be totally dog-free?

[Golden Rules]

BF, I really think its not dominance at all. I think your cat is scared of Zoe, she is stressed and thats why she's peeing in the wrong places. If she is weeing in the same places, I'd put some extra litter trays in those places and see if she will go there instead. I have a serial pisser here too, and he is triggered by stress. After 2 weeks of having a new pup our boy ended with a UTI, he was doing the same as your cat weeing all over the place, but he also had blood in the urine.

You need to reassure the cat to let her know you still love her, try giving her a massage to relax her. It sounds weird but my stressy boy loves it.

I'm in agreeance here. I'm feeling sorry for the cat and think that the pup needs some stronger ground rules - and a strong leader to put them in place.

[lovemesideways]

BF, I really think its not dominance at all. I think your cat is scared of Zoe, she is stressed and thats why she's peeing in the wrong places. If she is weeing in the same places, I'd put some extra litter trays in those places and see if she will go there instead. I have a serial pisser here too, and he is triggered by stress. After 2 weeks of having a new pup our boy ended with a UTI, he was doing the same as your cat weeing all over the place, but he also had blood in the urine.

You need to reassure the cat to let her know you still love her, try giving her a massage to relax her. It sounds weird but my stressy boy loves it.

I'm in agreeance here. I'm feeling sorry for the cat and think that the pup needs some stronger ground rules - and a strong leader to put them in place.

I agree with this too. Poor cat sounds stressed!

In my house, that cat knows he is king of both the dogs, he can stroll past them or clean them and he will be safe and left alone.

This came about by us telling the dogs in no uncertain terms that the cat was off limits!

At the same time, we also corrected the cat if he made any kind of unnecessary aggression towards the dogs!!

Kitty claws can do a lot of damage to a puppy.

I wouldn't be letting them play unless you can control the situation.

[Bluefairy]

Well I must have worded my posts wrong....its very hard to try and get into words what someone is trying to say.

But I had to have a laugh.... at anyone thinking my cat is stressed, frightened or anxious about the dog that is just too funny for words. Sorry but you have got it sooo wrong, there is no chance in hell that this cat is anything but totally happy with what is happening in her life.

If you could only see her and the dog PLAYING and I mean playing, not the cat trying to get away or afraid or anything but enjoying everything that they do together then you don't know how a cat (and I mean this one in particular) interacts.

I woke this morning to a clean dry laundry and I watched the cat chase the dog today. They were both having a blast, and as the only issue was the urinating, which hopefully has cleared up, I'll leave this at that.

I questioned any dominance issue when I was first told about it. I now believe it was never about dominance, I think it more about the cat trying to get a message through to the dog. What that message is I don't know, but as both the cat and dog are happy, playful and get along great, even sleeping near each other, I couldn't ask for more.

But at the cat being upset, afraid or anything other than happy...you have it all wrong ;)

Thanks for all the replies and for the help, but it appears to have sorted itself out.

BF

[spottychick]

Thats good news, I thought they sounded like they'd be fine together

[Bluefairy]

Thanks Spottychick,

I just bought them a cat tunnel, so while Zoe is playing inside with the hanging ball, the cat is dive bombing the dog from the outside, then she jumps back on the lounge, Zoe runs out to see who did that....then runs back inside the tunnel again so funny. They are certainly having a ball

BF

[Simply Grand]

Glad it has all settled down BF. They sound so cute playing together!

[spottychick]

Thanks Spottychick,

I just bought them a cat tunnel, so while Zoe is playing inside with the hanging ball, the cat is dive bombing the dog from the outside, then she jumps back on the lounge, Zoe runs out to see who did that....then runs back inside the tunnel again :rolleyes: so funny. They are certainly having a ball

BF