Dog Greeting

[mackiemad]

spurred on by what i read in the small tiff at the dog park thread (in general) on rude dogs, i now have to admit that i own one of those rude dogs.

in the past 6-8mnths my mini schnauzer has started to rush up to other dogs at the park (i don't want park bashing here, just help please!). he is 3 years old and has done a basic but pretty good level of obedience. his recalls are usually pretty solid, as is his heeling however when we get to the dog park, this can change. on lead he is fine, will greet other dogs politely and ignore them if i don't want to stop. at the park (we go a few times a week, so it isn't his only exercise, he gets an on-lead walk for 30mins every morning) i tend to walk around pretty quick and he follows, sniffs and then catches up with me. but if he sees another dog (and this doesn't always happen) he will crouch and then run up to it, usually skirting around the dog to sniff it.

in effect he is bullrushing other dogs, something which is relatively new for him and has been becoming more common. what happened once. then twice is now happening most every time we go to the park. usually only the first dog or two he meets, unless they are dogs he already knows well. if i catch him starting to focus on the dog before he really zones in then i can get his focus away and he'll just politely trot up and say hi, but if i'm more than a few staps away i find it hard to get there and break his concentration in time.

now i think i obviously need to do some more recall and obedience work, and will do so, but what else should i do to change this behaviour? it is obviously escalating and as well as being rude and undesireable, it can get him hurt.

it does seem to be when he is at his most energetic-so only the first ten minutes of the dog park, but having excess energy should not be an excuse! also, he has always been a very dog-loving dog, he is always keen to meet and play with other dogs. he is not very food driven, loves a play from me, but he is very dog-driven. he prefers dogs to most people. in the home he is third in line after the cats, eats last and must wait for his dinner. he is polite and respectful on lead and in the house and for 80% of the dog park, it is that first 20% where is being rude and rushing. shoudl i take my 10metre lead and keep him on that? i'm worried that he will not get to run then as he runs a lot at the park and it really seems to blow the cobwebs out from a few days of not running in walks-he is quite fit.

ok, so i've given all the info i can, advice please?

-mackie

[corvus]

*flame suite on*

Here's my thought: how are the dogs he is rushing taking it? Does he know them? I'm more concerned that my dogs are not upsetting other dogs than that they are living by some pre-ordained human interpretation of dog civil order or some such. My dogs aren't wild about being rushed by strangers (although they handle it well) and rarely do it to dogs they don't know, but it's all on for dogs they do know, and they have no issue with their pals rushing up to them and greeting them like long lost brothers.

If it's only the first few dogs you meet, why don't you try changing your park routine a little? We often practise a recall or play a game in the first few minutes of arriving at the park to take the edge off the crazies. It definitely helps.

You can teach a really solid "whip around" with rewards. I think Leslie McDevitt covers it in her book Control Unleashed. The idea is that whenever you call their name when they are moving away from you, you reward their turning towards you so that over time they respond quite reliably to their name by whipping around and orienting to you. It's a great way to distract a dog from something it's about to do.

You could also try teaching him that he doesn't get to talk to dogs until he sits first or something. I have my doubts about this one, because if the problem is he's excited, then how can you say he won't find the anticipation of release to visit the doggies even MORE exciting and thus kind of shoot yourself in the foot. My thought is that it's better to try to address the excitement rather than the behaviour that results from the excitement. I sort of have a "training could happen any time" policy at the park so that whenever I call they think I might be going to get them to perform tricks or something. They come over and hang around like a bad smell until I tell them to go and play again. It's good because it's really easy to get their attention if they are excited about another dog for some reason. I can be like "Hey guys, wanna do a trick for me??" and they're like "Tricks?? Yeah!" and they completely forget about the other dogs in the park. They can channel all their excitement into training for a few moments and then when I dismiss them it's a bit like a reset button. They have usually forgotten what they were doing and meander around at a trot looking for new things rather than zeroing in on something and getting all bouncy again. I also find heel practise is good for calming down excited dogs. It gets them focusing on you and they relax a bit.

[megan_]

My MS used to do something similar. Now we go for a walk around the edge of the park first (get him focused on me, get rid of some energy) and I then let him off the leash. Every time I let him off the leash I play a game with him first (throwing a squeaky toy etc). This gets his focus on me. Then I tell him to play. He doesn't rush dogs any more - only his BFF Toby the Beagle but it is a mutual thing!

I also regular;y call him back and reward him every time.

[mackiemad]

You could also try teaching him that he doesn't get to talk to dogs until he sits first or something. I have my doubts about this one, because if the problem is he's excited, then how can you say he won't find the anticipation of release to visit the doggies even MORE exciting and thus kind of shoot yourself in the foot. My thought is that it's better to try to address the excitement rather than the behaviour that results from the excitement. I sort of have a "training could happen any time" policy at the park so that whenever I call they think I might be going to get them to perform tricks or something. They come over and hang around like a bad smell until I tell them to go and play again. It's good because it's really easy to get their attention if they are excited about another dog for some reason. I can be like "Hey guys, wanna do a trick for me??" and they're like "Tricks?? Yeah!" and they completely forget about the other dogs in the park. They can channel all their excitement into training for a few moments and then when I dismiss them it's a bit like a reset button. They have usually forgotten what they were doing and meander around at a trot looking for new things rather than zeroing in on something and getting all bouncy again. I also find heel practise is good for calming down excited dogs. It gets them focusing on you and they relax a bit.

thanks for the responses guys...

corvus: he tends to rush smaller dogs that he doesn't know, occasionally bigger dogs but this is rare. not dogs he meets regularly and not one or two dogs in particular. i had though about getting him to sit before greeting, and in fact tried that one day on leash in the park and it seemed to make the behaviour worse but over a shorter distance, with a little play grow/gruff that he usually omits when wrestling with a playmate (as opposed to a lower pitch actual growl). and yes, i am worried about how it makes other dogs feel, i personally wouldn't like it, and some of them seem to be concerned, showing an inclination to move away from him and he comes charging towards them-quite rightly too!

i think that because i never really found his 'motivator' the training in the park was always slightly torturous for him. he'd rather be playing and meeting dogs than doing things for food. his only toy that he responds to is his duck and he can be protective over that so i wouldn't take it to a public sphere (not guardy just hiding it-it is Ducky Mark 11 because one of his playmates played with it and pulled it apart, something that he didn't take too well!)

BUT if i can put a bit more effort into finding a game that he really enjoys then the playing for the first ten minutes might be the job. or maybe i should use a REALLY good food source that smells awesome to him...

i think next time i might walk him once around on his 10metre lead before letting him off lead. he can sniff and i can see if the letting off of steam gradually will improve the behaviour.

i think maybe i need to be a bit more 'fun' for him too. its usually when i'm walking that i start thinking through the day, what i have on, my thesis, work etc- a good way for me to process but not much fun for him at the park, though on lead it seems to work well as we both go in the zone

[W Sibs]

Before going to dog park.. Charlie and I usually had a training session before or had a walk, so he isn't too energetic (although he is a very calm dog naturally). He is not allow off leash without sitting and dropping. If he doesn't do it when I ask him, he doesn't get off leash. He also doesn't get off leash if he is still excited... he has to be calm.

[corvus]

i think that because i never really found his 'motivator' the training in the park was always slightly torturous for him. he'd rather be playing and meeting dogs than doing things for food. his only toy that he responds to is his duck and he can be protective over that so i wouldn't take it to a public sphere (not guardy just hiding it-it is Ducky Mark 11 because one of his playmates played with it and pulled it apart, something that he didn't take too well!)

You don't need to find a motivator that is better than the stuff he wants to do. My older dog Kivi would absolutely prefer playing with dogs over doing tricks for food treats (and I don't usually use very interesting food treats). With Kivi is was just a matter of repetition. A few times throughout the park visit we'd do less than half a minute of training with him. Make it really easy and reward often and pretty soon he was much keener about training in general and was quite happy to abandon dog play to do some tricks. I think if you gave him a choice of a treat or to play with dogs he would still pick playing with dogs, but the whole training setup has its own value, now, and he just kind of pays attention out of habit. He is totally conditioned. He comes over to us spontaneously at the park drooling because he's sure we're going to give him treats one way or another.

My other dog, Erik, is much more excited about new surroundings and for a while there we were lucky to get him to hang around long enough to get a treat at all. I figure if he can't concentrate for more than a second in a dog park then I shouldn't ask it of him and just build him up to more focus gradually. I would just call him, pop him a treat when he looked at me, then dismiss him before he could dismiss himself. If he was more engaged I'd do a few things with him and then dismiss. It seems to be working.

A friend of mine likes to say it's better to be the gatekeeper of good things than the one trying to ban the good things all together. Leslie McDevitt also has the "Give Me A Break" game, which involves playing with or training with your dog for, like, 20 seconds, then telling them to go away and do dog things. Sit down and let them run around and be crazy and when they come back on their own, ask for a sit or down and play some more. Story goes the more you play this game the more the dog loses interest in everything around them and would prefer to skip their "be a dog" breaks to spend time with you. McDevitt pioneered it with her own dog, a terrier (JRT? Can't remember) who could not concentrate on anything for more than a couple of seconds. Any noise at all would distract him.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If he's not responding to food treats, he's either way too excited, or a bit too well fed.

don't feed him until after the walk. Maybe skip a meal before the walk? Practice recall before you go into the park and before you let him off lead.

check the park for new dogs, and do introductions on lead before you let him off. Practice recall immediately before you let him off.

There are several dogs that visit my favourite dog exercise area, that freak my dog out, they like her and play too hard, so she's been trying to run home. So I keep her on lead until those dogs go home and she's ok. I'm lucky she doesn't rush any dogs as you describe. It's not her thing. But I do have the recall strong enough to stop her from offering greeting to aggressive dogs - the ones straining at the end of lead with all hackles, teeth and growling and the owner looking at you to back off. Frosty is starting to make that decision to keep clear on her own which I encourage and reward.

[perfect partners]

spurred on by what i read in the small tiff at the dog park thread (in general) on rude dogs, i now have to admit that i own one of those rude dogs.

in the past 6-8mnths my mini schnauzer has started to rush up to other dogs at the park (i don't want park bashing here, just help please!). he is 3 years old and has done a basic but pretty good level of obedience. his recalls are usually pretty solid, as is his heeling however when we get to the dog park, this can change. on lead he is fine, will greet other dogs politely and ignore them if i don't want to stop. at the park (we go a few times a week, so it isn't his only exercise, he gets an on-lead walk for 30mins every morning) i tend to walk around pretty quick and he follows, sniffs and then catches up with me. but if he sees another dog (and this doesn't always happen) he will crouch and then run up to it, usually skirting around the dog to sniff it.

in effect he is bullrushing other dogs, something which is relatively new for him and has been becoming more common. what happened once. then twice is now happening most every time we go to the park. usually only the first dog or two he meets, unless they are dogs he already knows well. if i catch him starting to focus on the dog before he really zones in then i can get his focus away and he'll just politely trot up and say hi, but if i'm more than a few staps away i find it hard to get there and break his concentration in time.

now i think i obviously need to do some more recall and obedience work, and will do so, but what else should i do to change this behaviour? it is obviously escalating and as well as being rude and undesireable, it can get him hurt.

it does seem to be when he is at his most energetic-so only the first ten minutes of the dog park, but having excess energy should not be an excuse! also, he has always been a very dog-loving dog, he is always keen to meet and play with other dogs. he is not very food driven, loves a play from me, but he is very dog-driven. he prefers dogs to most people. in the home he is third in line after the cats, eats last and must wait for his dinner. he is polite and respectful on lead and in the house and for 80% of the dog park, it is that first 20% where is being rude and rushing. shoudl i take my 10metre lead and keep him on that? i'm worried that he will not get to run then as he runs a lot at the park and it really seems to blow the cobwebs out from a few days of not running in walks-he is quite fit.

ok, so i've given all the info i can, advice please?

-mackie

Cesar Millan says - exercise your dog first THEN take it to the dog park to socialise. Sounds like a sensible idea to me.

[mackiemad]

ok. so i didn't got to the dog park this arvo but wanted to respond to later posts...

he does get a brisque 30min walk before my brekky so he has already been walked that day before the park. and if i have to give him a full on-lead walk in order to get him to a place where he won't rush other dogs then i'm not sure i'll bother going to the park at all-it seems to defeat the purpose for me and him then... but i will do a little of what corvus said, rewarding him when he is around (but trying not to be too excited either) and a bit of training before he really gets to go off and be doggy.

however i have always had problems with his lack of food motivation. he only gets fed at night, 6pm-and i am always back from the dog park by then. he gets Nutrience kibble and either butcher meat or sardines. he loves the sardines but i can't take them to the park, cos that is impractical and i'm sure i'd get mobbed by the big labradors and whatnot! however if it is hot he won't eat dinner/anything, only drink water. if it is too wet he won't go outside to eat (hates water as he fell in the pool as a puppy, we didn't realise he could fit through the bars cos he was all fluff). and if there are better things on offer, well he'd just rather have them than food-when i have a bit of a party he doesn't bother with his dinner, just meeting ppl is more fun. he likes food but if i forgot to feed him, he would not beg or hound me for his dinner (the cats are another story!). so i'm not sure that food treats are the best, hence my concern that using food as reward at the park wouldn't work. when initially training him i used myself and play as the motivator-but that hypes him up, something that does not help the rushing situation. if he was a labrador and food-crazy then i'm sure i could have a few treats on hand and disperse them randomly and get good results.

ok. so plan of attack is to use my 10metre lead for the first few minutes, and do some training when we get there with some food and see how that works for the moment... (although i aught to add that he does sit and drop before i unclip him and he must wait until i allow him to break his possie before he can go off anyway, but testing it a bit more and a bit of heeling should be added here)

thanks for the replies and keep them coming!

[corvus]

Sounds good. Let us know how it goes.

With the food... It can be a bit pointless to pop treats if the dog doesn't actually want them. You would have to first build up his interest in training in general so that it's a bigger reward than the food alone. That would take time as you sometimes have to start in low distraction environments and work up to the park. You could try very high value food rewards as a short cut. I like cooking up some of that cheap sizzle steak you can get in Coles. Or roast chicken is usually popular. Or even cheese or cabanossi. You could mix a few pieces in with his normal treats so he gets the odd surprise. I love the look on my dogs' faces when they were expecting a bit of dog food and get a little piece of steak.

Another way to make it more interesting for him is to have a high reward rate. I don't know what you do now, but for example, if he's heeling pop him a treat every two steps.

As mentioned, you can also use other things as a reward. Games like tug or fetch or even releasing him to run around and check things out. I think it's good to diversify with rewards.

[mackiemad]

ok. so i've had two goes doing some extra obedience work at the park and using the 10metre long lead...

the obedience was fine, but the only way i can seem to reward him well is by using excitement and that isn't helping, he was even more hyper and even though i was doing sit stays etc he was about ready to burst out of his skin every time i released him. and i did try getting him to focus on me and used some food and although he would look at me and eat the food, when he noticed another dog not so afr away i couldn't really keep his attention so well.

however the long lead seemed to work pretty ok. i just allowed him to do what he normally does and when he started to focus on another dog in a way that i thought looks like he is starting to fixate and tense up (signalls to me that he is going to bullrush them) i would check him with a relatively high degree of intensity, breaking his focus. he coulld then go up and say helloo, just wasn't allowed to rush up to the other dog. i did try a few times putting a 'come' at the end of the check and he would sort of wait and look between me and the other dog. often he wouldn't move in either direction. so i get that he really wanst to meet the dog but he kinda wants to come back to me and get the reward, or at least not get in trouble.

so what do we think i should persist with? the long lead and try and get a bit more obedience in with that on too? at least i can control his excitement then but he still gets rewards for focussing on me and the commands?

[skip]

I found many dogs are a bit full on when arriving at a dogpark. Takes a few minutes for them to settle down.

My dog has a bit of a tendency to rush at some dogs, not all but just the odd one. I tell him "slow" and he should stay in a walk/trot. If he did bolt up to one he would go back on the lead for a little bit. He knows what slow means but I think he was taught that originaly on loose lead with me.

I do watch him as he is like the fun police. He doesn't like ball obsessed dogs and tends to chase them and try to get their attention, or herd them. So he goes on the lead if he shows any interest.

Good luck with your boy.

[corvus]

Good to hear how things are going. It sounds like he's a bit over threshold if he doesn't respond to a come when in that fixated state. You can handle that with lots and lots of conditioning. Try teaching him a compulsive whip-around. Practise saying his name and as soon as he turns towards you throw a piece of food away from you both and tell him to "get it!". Or you can hold onto the food if you don't want to risk teaching him to whip around to the wrong place. :D Make sure you do it in lots of different situations when he's not fixated on things.

Otherwise, the long line sounds good.

[mackiemad]

another two good suggestions... thank you!

so we'll keep on with the long line and a bit of extra obedience and see how we go. i'll give a progress update in a few weeks.

again, thank you!

[Sonic]

As mentioned, you can also use other things as a reward. Games like tug or fetch or even releasing him to run around and check things out. I think it's good to diversify with rewards.

I had the same problem. My bitch was attacked in the park by a small, white fluffy when she was young and is now quite unforgiving of small dogs she doesn't know. She will charge them like she is the queen of the park - if they get scared and take flight she will chase (she never touches them, just scares the hell out of them), if they hold their ground she becomes their best friend. If she meets the same dog again on another day she doesn't give them a second glance.

I am fortunate that she is very prey driven so have been able to redirect her with a training dummy. When she spots a small dog now that she doesn't know and goes into the stalk I only have to say "are you ready?" and she totally forgets the other dog and we have a great game of fetch. The other dog can even join in if he wants and she won't pay it the slightest attention.