Is This A Normal Or Difficult Labour?

[Labkisses]

Hello everyone

Some of you may already know I have a labrador litter that are a week old today

I have a question about our girl's labour. This is what happened.

Contractions started 1am

First pup delivered - 1.40am

Second pup - 2.45am (stillborn, however looked deformed - like fur and bones..very small)

Third pup - 3.01am

Forth pup - 3.55am

Fifth pup - 4.03am

Sixth pup - 5.19am

Seventh pup - 6.50am (stillborn)

Eighth pup - 12.30pm (stillborn)

In between puppies she had a rest and when she started to push, a pup was delivered around 20-30mins afterward.

After the third pup mum was absolutely buggered. We gave her Sandoz approximately 4 times (only 3ml per time).

We noticed that not all puppies were in a sack when they were born. She also had a hard time delivering while lying down, so she'd walk around and out would pop a puppy. After the first stillborn pup there was a lot of green discharge. Is this normal?

So would most of you consider this a normal labour or a difficult one? How could you speed up the labour next time if you were to breed with her again and is there any way we could have not lost the 2 that were stillborn right at the end. I figure the second pup born may have died earlier.

Thanks heaps

[cowanbree]

Looks relatively normal until you get to the 8th puppy. Personally she would have been at the vet with that amount of time between puppies. What did you do to stimulate the stillborn puppies? How old is this bitch and how fit is she?

[Bisart Dobes]

Green discharge is normal with a dead or sickly puppy - its infection. The placenta should smell healthy - not a good description sorry. Each bitch is different in their whelp - it all depends on their condition going into the pregnancy and their maintaining that fittness up to whelp, how many puppies they have, any complications etc etc - there are so many variables. Our first litter was 12 puppies delivered in 5 1/2 hours - another was 11 puppies delivered in 7 hours - different bitches - different circumstances - and I am sure if I could remember all the litters my parents bred I would have as many differences again.

I would do three things if this were my girl and I wanted to whelp her again.

1. Make sure she was super fit going into her season and maintain this throughout the pregnancy (to her discretion in pregnancy though - not forced).

2. Give her Raspberry Leaf Tablets during pregnancy - it keeps the womb in shape and facilitates an easier labour.

3. Have Oxytocin on hand to give her / or a 24hr vet or breeder friend who can administer the injections - chemical facilitation of contractions.

Who knows if there would have been any difference with the last two babies - though it is so very sad to lose them that way. If she were that exhausted after the 3rd puppy I would have called my vet for advice and possibly taken her in (this is where the oxytocin is invaluable).

Sorry for you loss but at least your girl came through it all with healthy bouncing babys - enjoy them .

[ellz]

Looks quite normal to me. I certainly wouldn't be concerned enough to go haring off to a vet. It isn't uncommon for a bitch to run out of "puff" whilst whelping a larger litter.

The timeframe before the 8th puppy does concern me a tad, but unless you were expecting it, it is possible to believe a bitch has finished and be surprised by a last one.

My feeling is that the last two stillborn puppies may well have had placental separation during the course of the fairly lengthy labour and that is what caused their demise.

And yes, a deceased puppy will cause the green staining, but this could also have been from the last two deceased puppies, especially if they were alive in the birth canal at any time but became distressed and passed meconium in their sacs.

Many bitches move around a lot during labour and are happier to labour standing up. There is no hard and fast rule. This is one of the reasons why us "seasoned veterans" recommend toilet walks on lead, armed with towel and torch during the last few days of the pregnancy.

[RoseRed]

I'm certainly no expert, but have a pretty fresh experience of whelping (less than 24 hours ago)

It looks pretty normal to me .... apart from the long amount of time between 7th and 8th pups. Don't know about them not being in a sack.

Dani was the same with moving around whilst whelping. That was actually how I knew when another pup was on it's way, because she would actually start walking around and would give birth while kind of half squatting.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Green discharge is normal with a dead or sickly puppy - its infection. The placenta should smell healthy - not a good description sorry. Each bitch is different in their whelp - it all depends on their condition going into the pregnancy and their maintaining that fittness up to whelp, how many puppies they have, any complications etc etc - there are so many variables. Our first litter was 12 puppies delivered in 5 1/2 hours - another was 11 puppies delivered in 7 hours - different bitches - different circumstances - and I am sure if I could remember all the litters my parents bred I would have as many differences again.

I would do three things if this were my girl and I wanted to whelp her again.

1. Make sure she was super fit going into her season and maintain this throughout the pregnancy (to her discretion in pregnancy though - not forced).

2. Give her Raspberry Leaf Tablets during pregnancy - it keeps the womb in shape and facilitates an easier labour.

3. Have Oxytocin on hand to give her / or a 24hr vet or breeder friend who can administer the injections - chemical facilitation of contractions.

Who knows if there would have been any difference with the last two babies - though it is so very sad to lose them that way. If she were that exhausted after the 3rd puppy I would have called my vet for advice and possibly taken her in (this is where the oxytocin is invaluable).

Sorry for you loss but at least your girl came through it all with healthy bouncing babys - enjoy them .

This is meconium passed by a distressed pup. Does not mean an infection.

[ellz]

I also wouldn't be comfortable advising an inexperienced person to have, and use oxytocin. If used for the wrong reasons at the wrong time during the whelping this can cause many serious issues for bitch and whelps.

[persephone]

I also wouldn't be comfortable advising an inexperienced person to have, and use oxytocin. If used for the wrong reasons at the wrong time during the whelping this can cause many serious issues for bitch and whelps.

agreed .

[cowanbree]

Totally agree. I have whelped a few litters now and oxytocin is best in vet hands. The one thing I do use is something to stimulate the pups. Can't quite think of the name but you put it under the tongue and it can give the deadest looking puppy a jump start

[Labkisses]

Looks relatively normal until you get to the 8th puppy. Personally she would have been at the vet with that amount of time between puppies. What did you do to stimulate the stillborn puppies? How old is this bitch and how fit is she?

We had an ultrasound done on our bitch when she was 4 weeks. The vet said they saw 8 puppies but there could be maybe more of less as they couldnt get the best view unless she was shaved and stopped wriggling around so much. So we kinda expected 7-8 pups.

When we had the first stillborn puppy (puppy no. 2), we called the vet immediately to make sure everything is ok as I was concerned about the green fluid etc. They said it was ok as the pup may have come away from the placenta too early. While on the phone, the third pup arrived and was fine.

When she had the 7th pup mum actually went to sleep and we thought it was all over. Around 11:00am we noticed that it looked like she had started pushing again. I called the vet again right away and they told me that she might be pushing out any last placentas etc and if the pushing lasted more than an hour then to bring her in. After 20 mins she pushed out a pup. We totally didn't expect this.

With the stillborn pups we rubbed them vigorously with a towel and also swung them up and down (with head and body support, its hard to describe without sounding nasty or too violent ) to get any fluid out of their lungs..which we could see did come out. If anyone has other ways to revive a stillborn puppy please let me know! Seeing stillborn pups is heartbreaking

We took mum and pups to the vet that same day in the afternoon and the vet administered an oxytocin injection to get rid of any remaining placentas if there were any.

Bisart Dobes - thanks for your tips. We will definitely try the raspberry leaf tablet next time round.

Should we given more Sandoz calcium to help with the contractions or to make the deliveries faster?

Our bitch is at a good weight, not overweight at all and is quite active right until maybe the last week before giving birth. She is 3.5yrs old and this is her first litter.

[MissMonaro]

I have had a bitch go 5 hours between pups. She ate her dinner, then went to toilet and I noticed the bag (hence the definate advice about a torch)...took her back inside and pup was born. Waiting, waiting and then nothing else. We thought she must of only been having one and left it at that. Decided to go to bed (well on my mattress next to box) and made sure pup had a nice feed first and she started contracting (this was 5 hours later) - I thought she was just cleaning out the pipes but it was pretty full on labour and out come puppy no. 2. That was all she had.

There seems to be a differing of opinions on time factor though. Recently when discussing it during a visit to a reproduction specialist, he told me no more than 2 hours between pups and seemed quite amazed when I retold him the above story.

But also speaking to some breeders that have been having pups probably long before I ever considered becoming a breeder have told me as long as the bitch isnt pushing or straining, then let them go at their own pace etc.

My litter born just 2 weeks ago....she started at 10.15 am in the morning and delivered pup 6 by just after 1 pm.

So definately all different.

p.s. Congrats on the new arrivals too !!

[becks]

Totally agree. I have whelped a few litters now and oxytocin is best in vet hands. The one thing I do use is something to stimulate the pups. Can't quite think of the name but you put it under the tongue and it can give the deadest looking puppy a jump start

Dopram V is what you are thinking of?

[oakway]

I would be giving a Lab. 10 to 20 ml of sandoz.

[sandgrubber]

I would say any litter with three pups born dead is a difficult whelping. Even if it only took three hours. Dead pups are hard for the bitch to deliver. They don't semi-crawl up the birth canal. Makes it hard for the bitch, specially if it's a big dead pup.

I have no problem with people discussing oxitocin with their vet and using it if the vet feels comfortable dispensing it to them. Sub-cutaneous injection is really easy. My own vet knows my history and pointed out that I've probably spent twice as many hours in science labs than she has . . . so she wasn't worried about not measuring correctly or miscalculating dosage. My experience as a breeder is in the middle range, so she did request that I call her before administering the stuff (It's a lot less hastle to be waked up in the middle of the night to talk on the phone than it is to do a house call) . .. she was fine on my giving one jab when the whelping seemed to be over . .. to clean out any placentas that might be hanging around and / or give a push to that last pup.

Btw labs seem to have a tendency to hold on to one pup and deliver it several hours later after everyone thinks she's done. Sometimes the pup lives. Sometimes not.

I also wouldn't be comfortable advising an inexperienced person to have, and use oxytocin. If used for the wrong reasons at the wrong time during the whelping this can cause many serious issues for bitch and whelps.

Edited May 9, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Ashanali]

The time between pups doesn't worry me (I've had 12 hours between pup 11 and pup 12 and pup 12 was perfectly healthy), what I look for is how comfortable the bitch is.

If she's relaxed and content, I don't worry, she could just be having a break.

If she's agitated, panting, contracting, shaking, or showing any other obvious signs of stress, I'd be worried and visiting a vet.

[Labkisses]

The time between pups doesn't worry me (I've had 12 hours between pup 11 and pup 12 and pup 12 was perfectly healthy), what I look for is how comfortable the bitch is.

If she's relaxed and content, I don't worry, she could just be having a break.

If she's agitated, panting, contracting, shaking, or showing any other obvious signs of stress, I'd be worried and visiting a vet.

Wow 12 hours between pups - thats incredible. I didnt think it'd be possible.

My vet said that because of the long labour and it took almost 8 hours for the last puppies to arrive that they lose oxygen and/or blood (cant remember) and thats why they can end up stillborn??

My girl wasnt panting more heavily than usual, no shaking, shivering etc.

[Ashanali]

We thought that after 11 pups she was well and truly finished. I think she did also. I laid down to sleep next to the whelping box and she was comfy all night and not showing signs of distress. I woke at 5.30am and thought I saw a mild contraction but I didn't see another. She went back to sleep then too.

Took her to the vet, said "I think she may have had a contraction but I was half asleep and she didn't look too concerned". He gave a shot of oxytocin to clean her out... then 30 minutes later out came the biggest and most active puppy of the litter He was born in the car park at the vet.

If I thought there was another pup in there, we would have been at the vet sooner but mum was going well so I wasn't concerned. All ended well.

[ellz]

I have no problem with people discussing oxitocin with their vet and using it if the vet feels comfortable dispensing it to them. Sub-cutaneous injection is really easy. My own vet knows my history and pointed out that I've probably spent twice as many hours in science labs than she has . . . so she wasn't worried about not measuring correctly or miscalculating dosage. My experience as a breeder is in the middle range, so she did request that I call her before administering the stuff (It's a lot less hastle to be waked up in the middle of the night to talk on the phone than it is to do a house call) . .. she was fine on my giving one jab when the whelping seemed to be over . .. to clean out any placentas that might be hanging around and / or give a push to that last pup.

I also wouldn't be comfortable advising an inexperienced person to have, and use oxytocin. If used for the wrong reasons at the wrong time during the whelping this can cause many serious issues for bitch and whelps.

Oxytocin given at the wrong time during whelping can cause untold damage to bitch and pups. It is nothing to do with the actual administration or dosage.

It is all about timing and the average inexperienced breeder would not have the knowledge to use their experience to time it correctly without the supervision of a vet. In which case, best off to leave it to the vet in the first place.

YOU may have the knowledge and I daresay that I would have the knowledge given my experience with whelping my own puppies and those belonging to other people, but many/most breeders would NOT and I have seen and heard of some pretty awful things resulting from mistimed hormone shots.

[sandgrubber]

I'd be interested to know what messes people have gotten into by inappropriate use of oxitocin. I'm aware of a few pups who were whelped dead that would probably have lived if the 'final flush' dosage of oxitocin had been given when the bitch went into post-whelping resting state with a pup still inside. I have heard rumors of awful things happening from incorrect timing for oxitocin. Never heard any specifics.

Note, vets do some awful things too. I know someone who recently took a bitch in for a C-section .. . and the vets LEFT A PUPPY inside her. She whelped it dead and rotting a week later. Fortunately, she survived.

READ.

My arrangement with the vet is that she makes the meds available. I call her before using it. She and I have discussed at length the protocols for administration. She recommends a low-end dosage.

I'm NOT saying get oxitocin and use it willy nilly. I am saying it may save you the expense and your vet the hassle of a visit at 2 am.

Also, the situation after the whelping is complete . . . but maybe there's still a pup lurking in there . . . but it's been 2 hours since the last pup . . . is safe.

Yes. Caution is required. Some people have done damage to bitch and pups by using drugs wrongly. That has also happened with herbals, over-the-counter meds, and all sorts of other things. However, sensible people who are capable of keeping a cool head after many sleepless hours sitting next to the whelping box may still do well to gain access to oxitocin.

I have no problem with people discussing oxitocin with their vet and using it if the vet feels comfortable dispensing it to them. Sub-cutaneous injection is really easy. My own vet knows my history and pointed out that I've probably spent twice as many hours in science labs than she has . . . so she wasn't worried about not measuring correctly or miscalculating dosage. My experience as a breeder is in the middle range, so she did request that I call her before administering the stuff (It's a lot less hastle to be waked up in the middle of the night to talk on the phone than it is to do a house call) . .. she was fine on my giving one jab when the whelping seemed to be over . .. to clean out any placentas that might be hanging around and / or give a push to that last pup.

I also wouldn't be comfortable advising an inexperienced person to have, and use oxytocin. If used for the wrong reasons at the wrong time during the whelping this can cause many serious issues for bitch and whelps.

Oxytocin given at the wrong time during whelping can cause untold damage to bitch and pups. It is nothing to do with the actual administration or dosage.

It is all about timing and the average inexperienced breeder would not have the knowledge to use their experience to time it correctly without the supervision of a vet. In which case, best off to leave it to the vet in the first place.

YOU may have the knowledge and I daresay that I would have the knowledge given my experience with whelping my own puppies and those belonging to other people, but many/most breeders would NOT and I have seen and heard of some pretty awful things resulting from mistimed hormone shots.

Edited May 10, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Christina]

Sounds normal enough, birth is an individual experience for each dog & it does not sound like anything drastic occurred.

As posted if the bitch is not straining or contracting time between pups can vary enormously.

A cat of mine was so small I thought there was just 1 kitten. She gave birth to it & 36 hours later when I was checking her, which I did hourly, there were another 2 babies there

Normal size & perfectly healthy. I had felt her tummy several times & could not feel any movement or even suspected it.

Have bred many litters & never had this happen.