Food Rewards - I Am Confused

[mumof3]

I've a background in working cattle dogs. Collie and kelpie crosses with a splash of ACD mostly. We've bred, raised and trained our own dogs in the past and they have become important members of our team. We have largely used the Scott Lithgow method of training pups. This method is based upon positive reinforcement. The reward for the obedient dog is your (the owners) pleasure and attention. Much time, effort and knowledge of dog and pack psychology is used to ensure that the handler is the leader and that the dogs look up to, trust, follow instinctively and adore the handler. Food rewards are not used. Punishment is used but positive reinforcement is much preferred. Punishment, when necessary must follow the "growl and snap" type assertiveness that dogs use in establishing their authority amongst themselves. Punishment may range from a deep growling voice, perhaps accompanied by some sort of assertive body language and may run to holding and shaking the dog by the scruff of the neck for an extremely harsh punishment (like for biting a child). We've never needed the harsh punishment as our dogs were always very keen to please us. We have trained our dogs to do all the things that working dogs do, which requires a good level of obedience, including directing a dog where to go, when to stop or go faster, when to put more or less pressure on stock etc etc. Dogs must also be controllable in the heat of the moment. Ultimately the dogs learn to read the handler's body language and read the situation and will work largely independently, or may be given a job which they carry out on their own (like working a particular part of the mob, or a particular yard).

Now working dogs are largely in our past and we are excitedly awaiting the arrival of our first pet dog, a Brittany puppy. I've been reading about training methods and find an enormous reliance upon food rewards. I'm wondering why, if we could train our working dogs to obey us simply because it brought them pleasure to do so, why should we use food rewards for our pet dog? Perhaps we should stick with what we know? What are the advantages of food rewards over emotional rewards?

[wuffles]

If your dog works well for praise I'd definitely use that. In my limited experience, most dogs won't work for praise only

Our Aussie pup works ok for praise to a point, but is much better with food. I also teach a lot of commands using a lure so use food for that. Our older mutt looks at us like we're complete idiots if he knows he'll only get praise as a reward (he doesn't work very well WITH food either, but sometimes bbq chicken gets the better of him).

[Scarlet]

My dogs are only have basic / pet obedience. By that I mean I have never gone in for obedience trials etc.

They obey the usual sit, come (pretty good recall actually), stay, drop commands.

Of course they could be better but their obedience level is fine for my needs.

I hardly ever use treats as a reward. Maybe a couple of times every couple of years!

I currently have border collies and although they enjoy their food they do like to please and I use that as their reward.

I do use toys as reward too.

[Addicted to Dogs]

I'm wondering why, if we could train our working dogs to obey us simply because it brought them pleasure to do so, why should we use food rewards for our pet dog? Perhaps we should stick with what we know? What are the advantages of food rewards over emotional rewards?

Mumof3

Food is largely used because it is a very quick and effective way of teaching many many behaviours through use as a lure and is quickly and easily provided as a reward. The idea though is that you very quickly drop the use of food as a lure and also start changing around the reward - how often, for what level of behaviour and what reward is given. Check out http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/dog-trai...2-3-4-and-1-2-3 and http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/food-critics for more info. You can also use toys and games - for a few great ideas check out the short videos on America's Dog Trainer TV show on DogStarDaily.com where one trainer shows you how to use fetch and tug in exciting new ways - http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/tv/part...behavior-savior and http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/tv/part...behavior-savior

Food also has a side benefit that works subconsciously to give a dog feel good about an experience or place like training class or the vets. It's called 'classical conditioning' and yes it can be done by associating other things the dog really really likes with new or adverse places or things - but food is just so much easier and more handy to use. For more info check out http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/classical-conditioning

So I guess food is quick and easy to teach things with - and has a few positive spin offs. It just seems to work - but unfortunately many many of us become over reliant on it or cannot seem to go anywhere or get anything from our dogs without food. The food critics article mentioned above can help avoid this.

The other thing you might want to think about with your new pup (if you haven't) is that our working dogs were bred for and gettting great reward from the very activity of working itself. It's something that many many pet dogs are missing. Training and a daily walk (if they are lucky) are largely all they get. I recently was at a conference with many dog handlers from a range of agencies and providers whose dogs work for 'a game' or 'food' - but the international speaker pointed out that the dogs don't - for many of them the losing and then finding the track or scent was self rewarding. It's that level that it sounds like you want with your new pup - that the act of being and doing together is reward enough - food, toys, games, your voice, petting (if your dog likes it) can all help get you there. Use the tools that work for you and your dog and let us know how you go.

[huski]

You don't really get to choose what motivates your dog the most. The dog is the one who chooses what they are most motivated by.

Some dogs are really driven by praise, often these dogs are working breeds who are bred to do anything to please their master. Some dogs are super prey driven and would walk over hot coals to get a tug toy. Some dogs are incredibly food motivated.

If you tried to train my scent hound with praise alone she'd give you the doggy equivalent of the rude finger She is very independent, stubborn, and is not particularly people focused like some working breeds. She doesn't give a toss if someone wants to pat her, and whilst I will incorporate verbal praise into our training sessions, we wouldn't have any where near the success we do if that's the only reward I utilised in training. She has no desire to please me just for the sake of a pat on the head. She has very strong instinct to scent and it's very easy for her to self reward (she just has to put her nose to the ground), so getting her to be interested in training and not the smells on the ground would be near impossible with praise alone.

That's not to say I use food rewards for everything and that she won't obey me if I don't have food on me. I very rarely use food rewards for basic manners stuff I have already trained - but then again when we are just at home or going for a walk I don't expect the same intense, 110% focus and quick, snappy responses I expect when we are training.

Edited May 8, 2010 by huski

[mumof3]

Thanks for the responses.

I think the point that the working dog breeds were bred to love the work and that the work itself is a reward is an excellent point. How very true. Perhaps that takes me to the point that if you are training a dog to do things that it instinctively wants to do, you won't need the food. If, however, you are going to go against or outside their instincts, you are going to have to find another way to increase their desire to do what you want them to do. The other excellent point is that dogs are individuals and you really just have to find out what works for you and your dog.

My puppy will be a Brittany, which has a pretty strong desire to please the master. Hopefully for the most case, my pleasure in her obedience will be a good motivator for her. There is always food, and play as additional motivators.

cheers

[Kavik]

It also depends on what your aim is. I train competitive agility, and while my breed is among the more competitive and easy to train for agility, and they love it (Kelpies), external rewards are very impotrant. This is true both for honing particular skills (weaving, or consistent fast contact performance) as well as fast overall performance speed and driving to the finish. To get that extra zip that makes a great performance dog, you have to 'pay' the dog for a job well done, whether with food/toys/a game.

While herding dogs are trained without external rewards, working the sheep IS their reward. With behaviours that are not as instinctive, external rewards give the dog a good reason to do them well. AND it is a lot of fun!

[corvus]

What Addicted to Dogs said.

I started training with food and pretty soon started carrying food all the time when we're with the dogs because it's a great reinforcer and I liked being able to reinforce things as they occurred. I still carry food everywhere and my dogs get lots of treats. They are a pleasure to spend time with as a result. I use lots of different rewards, though. I think it's really important to diversify with rewards to avoid a food dependence.

[helen]

........... This method is based upon positive reinforcement. The reward for the obedient dog is your (the owners) pleasure and attention. .........

The basic rule of using positive reinforcement is using what the dog values most as a reward, whether it is food, toys, attention etc. With a typical Brittany you will soon learn that food is way up there, especially extra special treats, toys may be OK around the house but not nearly as interesting outside of the house. Many other dogs may prefer toys to food etc etc. So you theory of using positive reinforcement sounds great to me but if the dog considers a great treat more important than a pat then use the treat.

You can use some amazing things in training if it is important for the dog, for example Chazer pulling on the lead - he tried to drag me to a tree to cock his leg one day so I used it as a walking on a loose lead training session, as soon as he pulled I walked the other way, we only went forward toward the tree if he didn't pull, eventually he got what he really wanted (to cock his leg) once he walked nicely on the lead

[mumof3]

You can use some amazing things in training if it is important for the dog, for example Chazer pulling on the lead - he tried to drag me to a tree to cock his leg one day so I used it as a walking on a loose lead training session, as soon as he pulled I walked the other way, we only went forward toward the tree if he didn't pull, eventually he got what he really wanted (to cock his leg) once he walked nicely on the lead

Ha ha, excellent work!

Great to get a Brittany persons perspective thanks Helen. I think it may have been you that provided a link to Dr Ian Dunbar ebook, which I have been reading. He says it is vitally important to know how to train your puppy before it comes home. As I know that a dog can only ever be what you make it, and that it is so important to know the developmental time lines and bear them in mind, I've really taken his advice on board and am seeking to fill the gaps of my knowledge, converting from working dogs to a pet. There are so many new and different things to teach a pet. Like not to jump up, or toilet in the house. Working dogs live outside, and are not generally taught manners. The idea of using food rewards seemed like a shortcut or bribery for people who didn't know how to be the leader of the pack, but now makes sense as a valid training technique. So thank you all for clearing up my understanding.

I'd be interested to know if other working type dogs are trained using food rewards. Dogs like working guide dogs, assistance dogs and police and customs type dogs.

I guess I'll organise some food rewards after all.

[huski]

I'd be interested to know if other working type dogs are trained using food rewards. Dogs like working guide dogs, assistance dogs and police and customs type dogs.

They definitely are, some are trained in prey drive (so with toys) some in food drive depending on what is most motivating for the dog.

If you ever see working beagles at the airport you will often see the handlers giving them a food reward for doing good work.

[Kavik]

Yep as Huski said some scent detection dogs (AQIS/Customs) are trained with food rewards, while others are rewarded with a game of tug, depending on what the dog values most.

Police dogs are rewarded in prey drive (tug/bitework) as are security dogs.

[Jed]

Once, long ago, food rewards were frowned upon for obedience.

Now, due to different trainers, different ideas, they are popular. Times and fashions change.

I think it depends on the breed - and the dog. One of my cockers scorns food rewards, and will work her little heart out for praise. She learned to sit by watching her brother being taught. She strives to please, and in fact, has been wasted because I didn't do obedience with her. Bait didn't do it for her in the ring either, she preferred to be a "good dog". She has good working dogs and many obedience titled dogs in her lines.

The others would probably work better for food rewards.

I don't like using any rewards I have too carry. Too lazy, and what happens if you don't have anything for a reward? I prefer verbal praise and commands.

But, I am not training for competition.

I suggest you do what you are comfortable with - the ideas you quoted are very valid, and do work.

Might need some adjustment depending on the breed. Working dogs like to work, and cockers are working dogs, and the ones with the right instincts, which she has, will do the job for the pleasure of doing it.

Different breeds have different motivation, know the breed, and learn what works best with your dog

Edited May 9, 2010 by Jed

[Nekhbet]

I too work on myself as a reward for the dog. Food and toys are involved sometimes, ultimately its attention from me they want, I treat the rest as icing on the cake

I say stick with what you know.

As for service dogs, considering they dont live with their handlers and need to be able to handed over to another person at another point you want something else to be the focus of their reward. Otherwise hand it over to another handler and get what my dogs do - pfffft no That and the work they do like bitework HAS to be highly rewarding in the event itself otherwise they wouldnt do it or lose enthusiasm over time.

ETA food doesnt mean motivation or enthusiasm in a dog moreso then praise. I see a lot of owners really unenthusiastic or being just plain boring so we have to introduce something else, they're just so low value in their demeanour not because the dog doesnt see the value. I would like to actually see a lot more owner-reward based being encouraged so people get a little more motivated

Edited May 9, 2010 by Nekhbet

[huski]

ETA food doesnt mean motivation or enthusiasm in a dog moreso then praise. I see a lot of owners really unenthusiastic or being just plain boring so we have to introduce something else, they're just so low value in their demeanour not because the dog doesnt see the value. I would like to actually see a lot more owner-reward based being encouraged so people get a little more motivated

I think that the owner being exciting should go hand in hand with whatever reward you use. I definitely agree there are far too many owners who are unexciting and it looks like both they and the dog are going through the motions.

Some dogs are really keen for praise, mine is not particularly, but even with her it definitely makes a difference if I am super exciting and enthusiastic.

[alpha bet]

Mumof3 - I can see how you can find the confusion with the use of food in training. And it is common to see some of the training techniques that can become sooooo reliant on the food. I can only give my perspective to add to your thoughts - albiet only a brief idea i suppose.

I use food/clickers/toys or whatever depending on the dog - Also, as I work mainly with families wanting to develop pets with good manners I have to adapt to suit the dog and the person. Some people find clickers confusing and toys complicated to work whilst handling the lead as well, however generally we find that most people can work out how to use the food with some success.

The major thing that I work on is to seperate the working sessions into two main areas.

BLOCKING

As far as general manners and compliance of the dog to the human interaction we show the families ways to BLOCK behaviours they do not want - we try to focus the handlers on the idea of making up their mind what is acceptable behaviour and to let that behaviour happen without interference - but the minute anything happens the family do not want then they should BLOCK. A block is achieved in a similar manner to what you said with regard to the training system you have used in the past.

Important note : Although I never refer to a BLOCK as Punishment (dictionary meaning : severe handling or treatment) but instead as Discipline (dictionary meaning: the training according to the rules). this helps to clarify the idea of the Block for most handlers.

TEACHING

This is a totally different state of mind for both the dog and the handler - when we are Teaching we must provide whatever motivation works for the dog. Therefore I like to think of the food/clicker/play/toys as TEACHING AIDES.

If you are teaching you must assume they do not know what is expected and therefore you avoid any form of Block and just try to reward what you seek. Even if it only an attempt - once the dog and handler have mild success then it will generally encourage the team to work towards bigger achievements.

The biggest mistakes I see with handlers is that they don't seperate - they will try to use food to distract dogs from bad behaviours. Whereas I prefer to block the behaviour and show the dog this is not acceptable - then wait for him to withdraw the behaviour. This is a more honest way to deal with issues that a dog may have. Some dogs may never withdraw bad behaviour - this is now a management problem and falls into a different type of work than the above.

Hope I have made my points in a way that you can understand. Generally I would spend nearly an hour discussing this with a client - not just place in a few paragraphs.

Good luck and keep assessing....

[mumof3]

Thanks for the great opinions. Everyone has had something really useful and constructive to say.

I'm leaning towards using myself as a reward in the first instance, being flexible in my approach so that I try other rewards too and decide what works best for the dog. I feel confident of teaching sit, stay, heel, behind, come, stop without food rewards, but may resort to food rewards for less familiar commands like roll over, speak. I am likely to only use external rewards in the teaching phase though (and then maybe occassionally). I agree that you shouldn't have to carry rewards around with you. I will also spend some food reward based training time with my children so that the puppy learns to come, sit, lie and roll over for the kids, and the kids learn appropriate ways of dealing with behaviour like jumping up or biting. My kids are 5 and 3 (and a baby who is nearly 1 but won't be old enough yet to ask the puppy to sit etc), so I think it is important to train them as well as train the puppy. I've absolutely no problem being very enthusiastic - we are very clear in our body language and our dogs always know if they are making us happy or sad. It doesn't take long before a dog knows what "good dog" means.

I will be looking for good obedience type games to play with the kids, to get everybody off on the right foot.

Thanks again

[huski]

Re phasing out rewards, I do it for basic manners stuff like walking nicely on the leash etc but I will never fade food rewards out of obedience training. I work on the time my dog can maintain drive without a reward, because obviously in the ring your dog needs to work for a set amount of time without rewards (with the exception of praise in between exercises). I train Daisy in food drive so I teach her that when working in drive she will ALWAYS get a food reward. This is because when we are training I expect 110% focus with sharp, snappy responses to commands (and you could probably get this with a dog who is insanely praise driven) but I don't want that when we are just around the house etc.

[kiesha09]

Once, long ago, food rewards were frowned upon for obedience.

Now, due to different trainers, different ideas, they are popular. Times and fashions change.

JMO but rather than fashions changing I believe we have become more educated in ways to effectively and efficiently train our dogs. There is alot more science behind the way we train now than in the past.

[corvus]

I don't like using any rewards I have too carry. Too lazy, and what happens if you don't have anything for a reward?

That's what conditioned reinforcers are for. If you pair verbal praise with other rewards often enough you can get by in a pinch by using the verbal praise alone. Grey Stafford says a conditioned reinforcer is only as good as the last time you reinforced it with a primary reinforcer, though.

I encourage anyone who cares to listen to me to give carrying food around a try. I never go anywhere with the dogs without my treat pouch and a tug toy (and a clicker) and I wouldn't have it any other way. We even ended up buying a second treat pouch so OH could have one as well. The thing is, once you are in the habit of having these big reinforcers on you, you automatically become more interesting to your dog by virtue of the fact that you reward them a lot, and thus you become less dependent on the very rewards you're carrying. But as long as you have them you tend to use them, and I think that is good because it's all money in the bank. It pays to be realistic about what your dog finds rewarding and USE it. It is SO much easier to handle distractions and rewards in the enviornment out of your control if you have a good reward history with your dog in the first place. I don't think it ever occurs to my dogs that I might not have anything worth their while on me. The odd times when I have forgotten to refill the treat pouch or don't have it on me have not resulted in all our training coming to nothing. Most of training is forming good habits. Habits don't die easily.